Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

Well the 944 gave up her rear suspension and torque tube without much fuss today. I had to get a little creative and use the motor hoist to drag it out from under the car while doing a group hug with the floor jack.

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

Then out came a surprisingly large fuel tank.

The fuel filler area looked like it had some kind of rework or hack - I've heard there were issues with fumes or smells on the 944.

I don't know what it is about me and critters but here you go - this black widow was PISSED OFF that I had to go and tear apart the car she was growing some kids in.

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

Now she's up on the carcass dolly and the front suspension is next.

Check out the size of the pads on the disks. This is why the stock 944 rigging is not good for V8 swaps.

Trying to figure out how to grab onto the rear end is challenging. That pretty much goes no matter what you're talking about. :lol:

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

I verified that the overall width of the rear of the car is approx 68" inside to inside of rear fender well lips. This is what Wikipedia had listed so now we know that anything on Wiki is correct! (joke) And the stock Porsche rear end was about 59.5" wheel hub to wheel hub (face to face). These two measurements along with the same deal from up front will be important in the donor vehicle decisions.

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

Option code sticker is located on the back wall of the rear hatch (where the tail lights are) and is best read by climbing in the front and stretching over the rear seat area and laying on the hatch area floor.

C03 = California emissions option
158 = Blaupunkt radio (long gone)
404 = Front and rear sway (stabilizer) bars
425 = Rear window wiper
431 = Leather steering wheel
454 = Cruise control
533 = Alarm system
650 = Sunroof
946 = Leather/Leatherette seats

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

You have a Porsche?
You have a publicist?
What are these things?
;)

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

Looks like it's going well! Looking forward to watching the progress.

Chad

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

Front suspension is off and the shell is re-positioned on the carcass dolly. Now I can drag it under the shade and keep working on it. Engine bay is cleaned up and ready for surgery. After measuring key dimensions on the 944 and on donor candidates (more on this later) I decided that it was too close to call on whether the stock 944 HVAC module could survive the transplant sessions. So I decided to pull the dash so that I could pull the HVAC module.

Hole-E-Crap what an ordeal. Even with nice instructions off some of the Porsche forums I still broke some stuff and re-broke the same things some PO had done before me. (I am not the first owner to remove the dash.) As just a small example of what the dash removal entails - the sun visors have to come off. No wait - not just the visors but their clamps too. Here are some shots of how I spent about 3 hours today.

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

Schwing!!!

Yes in my fake internet world I have a publicist!;)

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

Friday I went to the wrecking yard with a clipboard and pen. (Not the normal tools you see there.) I was window shopping for donor vehicles. There are a few dimensions/shapes that I feel are important to understand prior to making the purchase of my donor car.

First is what I will call track width. This probably isn't the correct term but what I mean by it is the distance from wheel to wheel mounting face.

On the Porsche 944 the front is approx 60" and the rear is probably also 60" or maybe a tad shorter at 59.5" (hard to measure when it's all floppy and off the car.)

A 1998 Mustang measured out at 61" at the rear (with disc brakes) and 62.5" on the front.

A 1994 Firebird "Formula V8" (with an LS that nobody had touched yet) measured out at 64ish rear and 64" front.

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

Next important measurement was in the engine bay. The bay width at approximately the header height - in other words how wide is the bay where the motor has to stuff the headers into?

On the 944 this is 27-28"

Mustang 30-31"

Firebird 30"

Then the distance from CL of front spindles to the firewall. This is my way of thinking about how far back will the motor sit and how much of the Porsche firewall has to go away to clear the bell housing of the motor.

Porsche is 10" & 13.5" (stepped shape as you can see in the previous pics).

Mustang 15"

Firebird 18"

^^ These results are what led me to want to remove the Porsche HVAC unit.

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

And last measurement is the approximate distance between the CL of the rear axle and where the lower swing arm mounts to the body/chassis.

Porsche 944 this is 20-21"

Mustang 18"

Firebird 20"

Another feature I took note of is where the fuel tank is located on each vehicle.

944 is above and behind rear axle CL

Mustang is behind

Firebird is in front of rear axle CL.

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

Based on these observations this is my hazy plan at this point.

(Keep in mind that whenever I mention the Mustang I am not wanting it's motor/tranny - that will be GM all the way.)

I like the Mustang for track width and engine bay shapes. I also like the Mustang rear axle setup and their reputation for being rugged. The GM/Camaro/Firebird axle just looks wimpy. Staying at a track width same/similar to the 944 gives me the most flexibility in wheels. I can always use spacers if I want to try a wheel with deeper back spacing on the Ford track width.

I like the GM F body for the LSmotor/tranny and I know that if I used the GM front suspension it would work in harmony with the motor's oil pan. However then I have to contend with the wider track width. This would lead to either body mods and/or funky choices on wheels and back spacing.

There are plenty of Mustangs running around with LSX conversions and there are aftermarket K member kits. I might not need to even go that way because I can always set the LS motor farther back than a stock Mustang would since I'm already going to chop up the Porsche firewall.

So at this point I'm leaning toward 2 donor vehicles. This is more expensive but what the heck. A late 90's Mustang for the front and rear suspension and a late 90's GM F body for the motor, tranny, brains, fuel system and vapor recovery.

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

I went back to the yard a re-measured the Mustang track widths.

61.5" rear on a disc brake model GT

62" front.

Then I went home and yanked the Porsche HVAC unit out, tied off the harnesses up out of harms way.

For all intents and purposes the 944 is ready for surgery. Now the hunt for donor vehicles begins! :devil:

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

Isn't the main issue with the 944 rear the weak transaxle/diff? Anything wrong with the rear suspension otherwise?

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

Brakes, axles and CV joints are too weak. The typical fix for V8 conversions is to upgrade to turbo components. These are therefore rare, desirable and expensive to acquire. Even then the wear items are expensive to replace.

Porsche rear turbo brake pads $150-ish a set
Rear turbo rotors $90-200 each
CV Joint kits turbo $76 each

Mustang rear pads $56 a set
Mustang rear rotors $79 each
Mustang rear wheel bearing $27 each

But the Porsche power train and suspension sure have some beautiful aluminum castings!

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

I just can't see going to a solid rear axle in a car that was originally IRS. Only exception (for me) would be for a purpose-build drag car.

There's gotta be a good solution for an increased capacity IRS...

Machine the Porsche arms to accept larger bearings/hubs..?

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

There's the Corvette C4 stuff. They are almost in my price range. I even saw a CList ad for a C4 frame and suspension for $800. The rear is certainly IRS and certainly capable of taking 300HP. It's got that funky transverse leaf spring but hot rodders convert them to coil overs all the time.

Once again though the track width raises it's ugly head. The C4 is a wide car and I think I read where the C4 rear hub-to-hub is in the high 6X".

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

I'm not the only guy putting a solid axle in the back of a 944...:cool:

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

..

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

Straight axle or not, I really like the body kit on that.

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

Not sure it would make any sense but what about 928 components? I have heard they are very strong. Might find cheap but still have expensive maintenance items.
As for the Porsche castings, how about recouping some cost and making a IRS
coffee table? Bet that would sell?

No matter what your steering with the throttle anyway. Right? :metal:

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

There just isn't any domestic rear diff that would easily adapt up with leaving the 944 swing axles in there. I'm definitely going the Mustang late 90's solid axle route and there's yet another reason this is the right move for me. If down the road I want to throw more $'s and time at it I can convert to the Mustang/T-Bird/Explorer style IRS with ease. The Ford IRS uses the same attach points plus weld 2 more brackets in for the diff and boosh you're IRS.

This week is Sunriver vacation and then I'll be in full hunt mode for a Stang donor.

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

This past Wednesday I met up with a really nice guy who owns SIX Porsche 944's between he and his wife. I had prepared a list of the 944 parts I was taking out and a list of the 944 things that were broken that I need fixes for. Once we got to know each other a little, talked about Halfbreed a bit and then went over the lists - this guy said he thought he had just about every part I needed and would trade me that stuff for my discarded parts. :metal:

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

When I returned from vacation I had received my fitted car cover. Friday I started hauling all of my Porsche discards off to the nice guy and started swapping for things I need.

Yesterday I bought my donor Mustang. It's a 98 and looks to be free of major accidents (perhaps none at all).

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

How cool is it to be able to use the truck for hauling all this stuff?? :metal: Glad to see you got a donor vehicle. Looking forward to seeing it come together!!

Chad

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

I had been thinking about a 944 project also. I like the body style and the reputation for handling. But now that I've read this I'm kinda glad I haven't really looked at it too hard. Mainly based on the things you have said about the failures of these cars and costs to keep them going. I like what you're doing with it.

I used to own an 83 Toyota celica and really like the shape of them also. Very similar to the 944 I think. It had the same R22 engine the trucks had and I always wondered if the sbc conversion kits they used for the trucks would work on the celicas.

Which now has me thinking that there may be some toyota options for a drivetrain swap into a 944, such as a supra turbo 6 cylinder. Or the sbc swap, and there may even be LSX swap kits available for those now. The toyota stuff can be pretty cheap and available too.

Anyway, was just thinking out loud, err, through the keyboard. Carry on. Looks like a hell of a fun project.

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

I would recommend you read a few pages of the 944 forums on Pelican or Rennlist to get a feel for how many things break on these cars. Thanks for following along on my build!

This past week was spent tearing into the donor Mustang. The rear half is stripped and I am getting close to pulling the motor and trans out.

When the Mustang was fresh in my yard after it's tow down I15 I took a can of spray paint and shot all four shocks to mark where stock ride height was. Then I pulled the coils and shocks out of the rear and fabbed up some dummy shocks to hold it at ride height.

As I took out the seats, console and carpet from the Mustang I slowly became rich from the spare coins I extracted out of the coffee soaked carpet.

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

Back on the Halfbreed build I had bought a cheapo used engine hoist to help me with loading my broke 4L60E. The first motor I used it on was the 944's and I found the design of the spreader bar lacking in just about every way. So today I did an overhaul on it. Now it has trick chain assemblies on each end that can quickly be dropped into chain hooks during the initial rigging. There are also eyes on each end should I want/need to use tie straps or rope. And most important it has a swivel eye so I don't have to fight how the hoist hook is clocked - now I can focus on pulling motors and not on lame product designs. ;)

I should mention that I'm using our big MIG at work for the welds on structural stuff like the motor hoist and the receiver hitch on my truck. Here is a pic of the MIG, the 5'x5' welding table and a cart I fabbed. It definitely puts the heat into the thicker metal! :metal:

And I also began welding up some conduit for the 16'x12' awning I will be hanging over the 944. Mostly need this for shade but also for the short but intense rainy season.

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

Here's the weld table I mentioned up there ^^^

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

In for the build sparkydog!

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

Thanks to all of you guys who are following along!

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

A shot of the newly overhauled spreader bar in action. Chain hooks in use up front, strap loop in the back, swivel eye swivelin'.

Two motor removals down, one to go.

The awning made a temporary debut so that I could mark where to put some additional eyelets. I'm almost out of the prep/facilities mode and will then have some better updates as I get into dedicated car mods. Stay tuned.

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

G'day,

Great project, great progress. That Ford engine, I only see three exhaust pipes, surely it's not a V6? If not, what engine is it? Keep up the good work.

Regards from Down Under. :gmc2:

aussiejohn

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

The Mustang is only donating it's suspension, brakes and some structural metal to the Porsche. The Ford motor came out to be sold off along with almost everything else.

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

You sir are my kinda crazy. My first car was an '83 944 non turbo w/ the fatory mags that I drove the piss out of and always got a special kind of confused only German mechanics working on U.S. trucks can understand.

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

Getting verrrrry close to finished with the prep work. The awning is functional. I just need to tweak a couple of more things and it will be off the list!

And the yard/driveway will soon be organized and more attractive. I was reaching my limit for visual mayhem.

I also finished fabricating two jack extensions (yes that sounds funny) so that I can get the 944 waaaay up off the ground. One is 8" and the other 16".

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

The 944 is high.
The Mustang is on the dolly and more stuff comes off every day.
Look what followed me home from the wrecking yard today.

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

So your going with IRS? :metal::metal: What is it from?

Chad

Re: Porsche 944: Actually there is a substitute
 

Updates, please?????

Regards from Down Under. :gmc2:

aussiejohn