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Re: S10 Swap how to
If I can ask ... how many of these do you do each year?
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Looking good Skymangs. Where on the frame are you attaching the angled pieces? I thought most guys went parallel with the bottom of the frame, but looks like your shooting for about the middle?
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Ratty 46; I do these about 1 a month, probably 7 or 8 a year. I only do one at a time, and I don't do AD trucks "specifically", but they are the bulk of my projects.
Uncle Jimi, thanks. I like to weld about centermass on the vertical portion of the frame. My version 2 cab stands make the board a little two low for an "under frame" weld. My version 1 stands can go right to the bottom of the frame though. |
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I like the extra material used in the running board supports. Doubtful those will bend under the added weight of ... just about everything.
Didn't the originals involve some sort of "C" or "U" channel thin material?? Nice upgrade I need to get one of these & drag it out to you along with my welder & a few pieces of equipment & build one with you side by side .... ya just invited myself. |
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Ratty 46; Thank you, the originals are 14ga. They are U shaped and integrate a 45 degree angle. I like to transpose rock crawler building technique with my rods. The strength is in the shape, not the thickness of the steel. In a crawler, triangulation is king. That's why we gusset roll cage joints, and weld angled secondary bars everywhere.
Well played on inviting yourself... :) |
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I dig the triangulation program ... been there done that ... I was impressed with the thoughts behind your simple, but effective, upgrades.
Ya - I figured you'd like the self invite thing!! BTW - what's the guest bedroom like? |
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In the basement... drywalls up, but still needs tape and mud... LoL
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Might have to just keep watch'n for now. Trying myself to finish a update on a chassis car to 7.0's. By the time I'm done & body remounted it'd probably be to cold out your way for me ...
Any updates? |
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Sorry, I've been out of town for a few days.
I can't think of anything else that needs to be covered, This thread paralleled my current build, so at this point we should have a completed project. If anyone has any questions, or would like me to cover anything else, please don't hesitate to ask. Just finishing up a '48 for a Customer. I'll post a pic or two tonight. |
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Nice job! Even though i'm using the original frame, I always enjoy reading your builds. They are very detailed and thought out. Thanks again for the info and good job.
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Thanks Iowaboynca. I enjoy building these immensely.
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Skymangs thanks for showing all the details of the build. Can you show the dimensions on the paper templates for the running board supports and how when finished you attach the to the frame. I am build a 46 dodge on 83 frame so this has been a great help. Right now the running boards have been kicking my tail on how to get them stout enough not to flex. I understand the measurements will be different but want to get your experience in attaching to frame.
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I'll take some measurements and see if I can dig up a pic or two of the attachment to the frame. I basically bevel the 11ga. 1.5" square tube to match the side of the frame, then seam weld all 4 sides. Boxed welds are much less susceptible flex, and the bevel gives you a longer vertical weld, adding even more strength. My running boards have zero flex in them.
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You guys all know of my distaste for this "swap", sorry, I am old school and feel the original frame is the best to modify.
That all being said, this thread is awesome and it shows how to do the S-10 frame right and it also does show that it isn't a "swap" bolt in type project either, but very do-able. Excellent job Skymangs! :metal: Brian |
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This thread rocks. Thanks so much for taking time out of your day to document all the steps in this very long project. I was just talking to a buddy who was thinking of picking up a truck to do this too. I have got to show him this now.
James |
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I just bought a 89 S10 tonight for my Panel swap. Heck yea!!!!!!
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Thank you all. Before my first AD build (my son's truck) I began looking for information on how to do this. I was sorely disappointed at how un-willing people were in general to give out information, and wound up with a lot of trial and error. I just thought it would be nice for someone else to have a quick reference guide, (at least from one perspective).
In the end, the problem most of my customers have to face is a realistic budget. It's much easier (and cheaper) to find a farm truck cab than a true 3100, S10's are everywhere, and can be picked up for a song, and they can be proud of their freshly finished "Patina" truck at shows with a total investment of less than 10K. Seems like a winning combination to us middle-classers...:metal: |
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I almost forgot. Somewhere near the beginning of this thread, I was asked to discuss wiring harness options. Basically there are 3 in my book.
1. If you are retaining the S10 4.3L with TBI, I use the stock S10 harness and ECM. Be sure you label everything before you unplug it if you aren't familiar enough with the harness to recognize the connectors. IMPORTANT! BE SURE YOU ARE USING A KNOWN SYSTEM! In other words, before you dis-mantle the S10, be sure to drive it and identify, diagnose, and repair any electrical issues prior to the swap. Diagnosing electrical gremlins on a harness after it's been apart and flexed, and moved around and re-connected is NO FUN! Using the S10 harness is pretty straight forward. I mount the ECM behind the glove box (above the stock heater box). I run the ECM harness though the firewall on the right side of the engine. All the engine connectors will be re-used. The wiper plug can be removed, delete all the wires but the switched power, then lengthen it to run it into the cab. I've built 4.3L trucks that still have the factory ABS and cruise control even (note: to have the cruise control function, you need the S10 brake light switch). I also delete the courtesy lights (under dash) and remove the stupid key in/lights on buzzer. The dash cluster plug is a pain, but pin-outs are available on the internet. See attached Pin-out for 83-93 S10's. Obviously the oil, temp, and voltmeter wires are the sending unit wires for aftermarket gauges, the left/right turn, bright ind. and SES wires must be hooked to individual lamps, etc. If you do not have basic wiring proficiency, do not attempt this! get professional help. :tms: |
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Option 2: If you are going the small block route. I WILL not build a truck without a new body harness. I've seen way to many engine fires from hacked up, worn out, corroded connections, re-purposed harnesses!
One harness I prefer to use for a basic truck is the EZ wiring 12 circuit mini fuse harness. For the cost, you can't get a better harness. If you plan on power seats, windows, locks, door poppers, etc. then the 21 circuit harness is for you. Installing a full harness is not for the faint of heart. It takes me 10-14 hours for a harness install, and I do them all the time. Do not cut corners, solder/heat shrink all your connections. Also, be sure you use the worksheet if you decide to re-purpose any of the circuits. It will save you lots of headache if you ever need to diagnose an issue later. I start by laying the harness out on the bench and going through it wire by wire. Deleting wires I won't be using (i.e. temp/oil sender wires if I'm using mechanical gauges) and accounting for every accessory BEFORE I try to install it. I also use this as an opportunity to re-route any wires (dome light power from taillight section to dash section, etc.) Once that's done, I zip tie my 4 basic sections together. Engine, Headlight, taillight, and dash. Then I begin routing each group. I work one section at a time, starting with the dash section (specifically ignition switch), when that section is done, I move on to the next. |
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Option 3: LS1 builds, you have the most fun ahead of you! Not only do you need to re-work the stock driveline harness to stand-alone, but you will also need a new 12 circuit body harness! :lol:
If you are looking for detailed information on LS1 pin-outs, harnesses, etc. the site for you is LT1swap.com No one has a more detailed instruction manual for these. You can also send your PCM to him for programming. He does an outstanding job. Be prepared for tedious work. An LS1 harness takes me about 15 hours to re-work. :waah: I hide all the wires under the intake to keep the motor looking as clean as possible. |
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Awesome post!
I'd like to share the mount design and dimensions I came up with. I put these together with advice I got from other builders on this forum (jeffs51chevy, av8tr33337 aka Bartman, 99toLife, and Skymangs) They're made primarily from 4x4 in. 11 GA tubing. The front mount is placed 2 in. behind the oval hole on the frame, I can thank Bartman for that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdgYy5YtW8k. The center to center distance between the front and rear mounts on mine is 36-1/4 in. I'm running 2 in. drop spindles on the front and 2 in. drop blocks in the back (started with 3 in. blocks but ended up with 2 in. blocks). That puts my running boards nearly level with a slight rake, about 1/2 in. to the rear. The front bumper sits 5-1/2 in. from the ground. Having driven it around I think that it is as low as I would want to go with a static drop. With these swaps, getting the cab placed properly is critical. Once you know you've got the cab where you want it, getting the front clip, bed, and running boards in place is easy since they are placed off the cab. There is no need to shell out $1,000+ for a conversion kit that really doesn't get you that far when this will get you the same distance for $100 or so in materials. https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-U...160%252529.jpg https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-s...161%252529.jpg Downloadable PDFs which are a bit clearer are available at the following links: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B29...ew?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B29...ew?usp=sharing https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-T...132%252529.jpg https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-M...130%252529.jpg https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Z...145%252529.jpg https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-j...146%252529.jpg From the top of the frame to the bottom of the cab floor support measures 4 in. https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-_...147%252529.jpg https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-j...149%252529.jpg I ran an 11 GA 2x1 rectangular tubing between the two rear cab mounts and bolted to the bottom of the floor. https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-s...150%252529.jpg https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-u...151%252529.jpg https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-4...154%252529.jpg https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-P...155%252529.jpg https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-9...157%252529.jpg Of course more pics are in my build thread: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=664837 |
Re: S10 Swap how to
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Thank you.
Best pics I have off the cuff like that. The mounts are tacked on, but in the correct place. I run a bead along the top of the frame (side to side), top of the frame (front to back) on the inner lip, and vertically on the frame (top to bottom). Total of 5 beads per mount. Should be plenty strong! |
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Ahhhhh... Gotcha. the front mounts use the stock AD mounting holes. Rears are pretty easy. It differs slightly from 47-50 and 51-55.
50 and older; I make 2 3/16" plates that will weld to the bottom of the cab. They should be at least 6"x6". With one edge curved to fit the cab corner. Then I weld them to the underside with 8 1" stitch welds. Once I have all the body mounts in place and bolts dropped into the front mounts, I drill a centered 3/16" pilot hole from the bottom to place the rear mount holes in the floor. then I open it up to 1/2" from the top. This hole should be near the center of your "plates" that were welded to the bottom. Make more sense? On 51 and later, with the shackle rear mounts. your rear cab stands should be inline with your factory shackle bolt hole once the front mount bolts are dropped through. Simply open the rear hole up to 1/2" and drop the bolt through. |
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Good, just remember to tack your brackets on first, then fit the cab. When you are happy with cab fitment, then seam them in.
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TTT....been watching this. Wanted it closer to the top.
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skymangs, How much of the front of the frame needs to be cut? I measured about 9 5/16" back.
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Chris,
I remember from another thread someone mentioning that you need to strip the s10 frame before trying to weld to it because of the wax base on it. Do you do that or is it ok to just grind down to bare metal. Awesome thread and help!! Greg |
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Ahh..knew it was on here somewhere, I overlooked it. Thanks, Clay!
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Sorry all, been kinda busy lately.
Iwanna49; Yes! Use Muriatic acid to cut the wax off the frame before you grind it! I detailed it earlier in this thread. If you just grind the metal, you will only work the wax into the pores. The wax will cause poor weld penetration, as well as bead you welds up, making them more prone to cracking. User Error; I use the factory wiring for electronic gauges. There is no guarantee that the stock senders are going to be compatible with your gauges. I would replace the stock sender with the senders included. But yes, your voltmeter should work, your speedometer should work as well. For temp and oil pressure, use what comes with the kit. Also, Dolphin may use 0-240 ohm fuel sender, I'm not 100% sure. you may find that you will have to use their sender in your fuel tank. Have you already purchased Dolphin gauges? If not, I would recommend looking for another option. I haven't been too happy with the one's I've installed. Lots of "out of the box" issues, like gauges that don't work. CaliforniaDaddy; BlueJeep beat me to the punch. Just in from of the forward steering box bolt is where I cut mine as well. By the way Bluejeep, that pic looks suspiciously like a Ford Explorer trans cooler you have mounted there! :) |
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Nope, I bought it before you shared that money saving tip! It's a B&M unit.
http://www.jegs.com/i/B-M/130/70268/...oductId=758370 |
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Back when EFI first came out a lot of the Chevy trucks had 2 temp senders. One for the gauge and another for the computer. Even now, most of my Vintage Air installations that use electric fans have 2 temp sensors.
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just want to make sure this applies to 117.9 in (2,995 mm) (reg. cab long bed chassis) I have a 1996 Chassis. |
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User Error; The TBI motor uses 2 temp senders. The one on the passenger head is for the gauge only, The one on the intake is for the ECM. Replace the one on the head with your new sending unit. The ECM doesn't read oil pressure, so you are good to replace that sender anyway.
So, to re-cap, leave the temp sensor in the intake, replace the one in the head with the Dolphin supplied one. Replace the Oil pressure sender with the Dolphin supplied one. Should work like a charm. There is also a plugged sensor hole on the driver side head (near the exhaust manifold) you can use if you don't want to mess with the original ones. |
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Front cab stands - measure 2 1/8th" forward of the oval frame hole just behind the flare of the frame (right behind front wheel). Scribe a vertical line. This will mark the rear edge of the front cab stand.
Rear cab stands - measure 10 1/2" from the rear of the 5/8" round frame hole CaliforniaDaddy; yup, If you are using a long bed, short cab, chassis, the above measurements are what to use. |
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Skymangs, this thread is going to be a lifesaver when it comes time to do my '50. Looks like all is pretty clearly explained. SUBSCRIBED!!
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Thank you, I hope it will be a helpful tool to lots of folks.
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