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-   -   TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10! (https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=589967)

GEARBOXGARAGE 07-24-2013 07:08 PM
TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
Check out their facebook page, this was posted earlier today. Looks like more options coming soon!
https://www.facebook.com/Total.Cost.Involved?ref=br_tf

lolife99 07-28-2013 09:41 AM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
Nice.
Everyone is seeing the $$$ possibilities in producing C10 parts.

They have the pre-'60 trucks covered.
http://www.totalcostinvolved.com/c/2...Classic-Trucks
Surprised it took so long to get to the 60-87 trucks.

andrewmp6 07-29-2013 01:46 AM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
I believe jim meyer racing was the first one and a few others came in slowly.But its not just these trucks the early mustang 10 years ago had a small aftermarket but it boomed about 5 years ago.

GEARBOXGARAGE 07-30-2013 07:37 AM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewmp6 (Post 6194641)
I believe jim meyer racing was the first one and a few others came in slowly.But its not just these trucks the early mustang 10 years ago had a small aftermarket but it boomed about 5 years ago.
Yeah, I think Jim Meyer had an offering like 15 years ago, and still do. I'm surprised it is taking everyone else so long to jump on the band wagon!

andrewmp6 07-30-2013 09:23 AM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
http://roadstershop.com/ has a full frame that has a irs

SCOTI 07-30-2013 10:00 AM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
The 'problem' w/any of these is price. The RS chassis will set you back around 15 large w/o the trick IRS.... That's a difficult chunk to pony up.

andrewmp6 07-31-2013 01:51 AM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
Yeah a full frame from anywhere is pricey now,Some places are 8k to 10k for a bare frame.

slow4dr 01-09-2014 02:46 PM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/1...-amp-D-Project

http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps0ce21f2e.jpg


http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps43d15c2a.jpg

http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/a...psdea6aa92.jpg

http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps5cb5c568.jpg

aggie91 01-09-2014 06:06 PM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
I am following it on the pro-touring web site...looks interesting so far...

slow4dr 02-18-2014 02:19 PM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
*another update*


The first articles have had a few revisions through development but we're getting close.

Here, Ed is changing the anti-dive angle to 7.5.
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps30e798f2.jpg

A quick tack weld
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/a...psb66ad1f3.jpg

We also revised the crossmember. We raised it up to frame another inch and put a degree tilted back.
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps488c99ff.jpg

Ed installing the upper plate onto the frame to confirm some simulations.
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/a...pscd416462.jpg

-Jason

GEARBOXGARAGE 02-18-2014 03:34 PM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
Are you guys utilizing a CPP MOD Spindle for your front kit? Would love to see a truck kit come with truck spindles and not Mustang II's.

slow4dr 02-19-2014 01:13 PM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GEARBOXGARAGE (Post 6532180)
Are you guys utilizing a CPP MOD Spindle for your front kit? Would love to see a truck kit come with truck spindles and not Mustang II's.
Yep, we are using their '73-'87 spindle on our kit so no MII spindles.

GEARBOXGARAGE 02-19-2014 07:47 PM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by slow4dr (Post 6533659)
Yep, we are using their '73-'87 spindle on our kit so no MII spindles.
That's great! Can't wait to see the finished product.

slow4dr 03-05-2014 04:08 PM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GEARBOXGARAGE (Post 6534225)
That's great! Can't wait to see the finished product.
A pretty big change of plans. In order to use the CPP spindles we wouldn't be able to use the more readily available T-Bird rack without a big compromise in turning radius. The T-Bird power rack is the same rack that most aftermarket companies use to replace a manual MII rack. This rack does not have enough travel to be used on the CPP spindle because the steering arms are too long. The factory steering box has 7" of travel whereas the T-Bird and MII racks have 6". We'd lose 14% of the turning angle if we went this route. The other major compromise is that the tie rod end needs to fit into the spindle from the bottom instead of the top in order to keep the engine in the factory location. Once the tie rod is moved it limits your ability to run 15" & 16" wheels with any sort of backspace/width.

We mocked up our Custom spindle that we use on some of our Pro-Touring builds and it would work very well in this capacity. While this spindle works well in its current applications we feel that making something even more robust would be more fitting. So we will begin designing a new spindle immediately. Should only be a few weeks delay in production.

-J

GEARBOXGARAGE 03-05-2014 07:44 PM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
It's awesome that you are keeping with the ideology that 1/2 ton trucks need 1/2 ton truck rated suspension/steering components. Others seem to think MII spindles are sufficient, but let's face it, they were designed for cars that barely tipped the scale past 2,000 lbs. Not to mention the wheel bearings, which I brought up in a conversation recently with another vendor. The conversation seem to go down hill when I started mentioning L10 life for the bearings and how they are over loaded by 150% when ran on a truck weighing in close to 3k. Keep up the great engineering work, I'm quickly becoming more and more of a TCI fan!

slow4dr 03-06-2014 03:56 PM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GEARBOXGARAGE (Post 6559685)
It's awesome that you are keeping with the ideology that 1/2 ton trucks need 1/2 ton truck rated suspension/steering components. Others seem to think MII spindles are sufficient, but let's face it, they were designed for cars that barely tipped the scale past 2,000 lbs. Not to mention the wheel bearings, which I brought up in a conversation recently with another vendor. The conversation seem to go down hill when I started mentioning L10 life for the bearings and how they are over loaded by 150% when ran on a truck weighing in close to 3k. Keep up the great engineering work, I'm quickly becoming more and more of a TCI fan!
Our chro-moly pins have proved themselves pretty well over the years. For instance our Road Race Camaro weighs in at 3800 lbs with driver. That car has 8 years of complete and total abuse and not so much as even basic maintenance done to it. It still has the original grease in the original bearings. We know though that the C10 is a different monster all together.

Something that struck us as odd is the OEM C10 spindle pin is smaller than the MII pin. So basically the I/D of the C10 bearing is smaller than the MII bearing. Although the C10 bearings are larger overall, both width and O/D. If GM felt the pin was suffeciently strong enough, who are we to argue? We will base our new spindle pin dimensions off the OEM pin. Ours will just be made out of Chro-Moly. This way replacement parts like rotors and bearings will also be OEM.

-J

SCOTI 03-06-2014 04:07 PM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by slow4dr (Post 6561085)
Our chro-moly pins have proved themselves pretty well over the years. For instance our Road Race Camaro weighs in at 3800 lbs with driver. That car has 8 years of complete and total abuse and not so much as even basic maintenance done to it. It still has the original grease in the original bearings. We know though that the C10 is a different monster all together.

Something that struck us as odd is the OEM C10 spindle pin is smaller than the MII pin. So basically the I/D of the C10 bearing is smaller than the MII bearing. Although the C10 bearings are larger overall, both width and O/D. If GM felt the pin was suffeciently strong enough, who are we to argue? We will base our new spindle pin dimensions off the OEM pin. Ours will just be made out of Chro-Moly. This way replacement parts like rotors and bearings will also be OEM.

-J
While this sounds logical.... Is it?

Wouldn't GM have likely based decisions of the 'pin' design & dimensions w/the vehicles anticipated use in mind which likely wasn't near what the current trends are (autocross specifically). Just wondering out loud here. Obviously you guys put alot of thought into what you design.

GEARBOXGARAGE 03-06-2014 07:52 PM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by slow4dr (Post 6561085)
Our chro-moly pins have proved themselves pretty well over the years. For instance our Road Race Camaro weighs in at 3800 lbs with driver. That car has 8 years of complete and total abuse and not so much as even basic maintenance done to it. It still has the original grease in the original bearings. We know though that the C10 is a different monster all together.

Something that struck us as odd is the OEM C10 spindle pin is smaller than the MII pin. So basically the I/D of the C10 bearing is smaller than the MII bearing. Although the C10 bearings are larger overall, both width and O/D. If GM felt the pin was suffeciently strong enough, who are we to argue? We will base our new spindle pin dimensions off the OEM pin. Ours will just be made out of Chro-Moly. This way replacement parts like rotors and bearings will also be OEM.

-J
Looks like I type-o'd on the weight of a pick-up. :smoke: Should of been "close to 4k" not "close to 3k". But any way, you're definitely right on the trucks being a "different monster all together" with most of the weight on the front. I not so sure if the pin size on the spindle is as big of an issue as the bearing size, but using a superior material like the Chrome-moly you mentioned is a huge plus. In theory, by incorporating a smaller I.D., or smaller pin design, with the larger O.D. allowed by the truck rotor, GM could then use a bearing with either more rollers, or larger rollers, or possibly both, increasing the weight capacity of that application. The larger/higher roller count disperses the energy more efficiently. For those that may not be familiar with the L10 Life I mentioned in an earlier post, this is a mathematical equation that can predict a 90% failure mode under specific loads. This can literally narrow it down to expected hours of in-service operation, pretty accurate stuff. A few months back, the engineering team I work with had a Lunch-N-Learn seminar with Timken Bearings and the information they shared was tremendous.

Again, kudos to you TCI, for the great development going on!

slow4dr 03-07-2014 03:56 PM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTI (Post 6561110)
While this sounds logical.... Is it?

Wouldn't GM have likely based decisions of the 'pin' design & dimensions w/the vehicles anticipated use in mind which likely wasn't near what the current trends are (autocross specifically). Just wondering out loud here. Obviously you guys put alot of thought into what you design.
We are actually going to build the spindle and pin to be strong enough to handle anything a customer can throw at it. If a weakness presents itself during testing we will go a different route. The pin itself will be made form chromoly so strength won't be an issue. For selfish reasons I am pushing them to overengineer everything so I can be able to adapt a long travel set-up onto our crossmember.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GEARBOXGARAGE (Post 6561419)
Looks like I type-o'd on the weight of a pick-up. :smoke: Should of been "close to 4k" not "close to 3k". But any way, you're definitely right on the trucks being a "different monster all together" with most of the weight on the front. I not so sure if the pin size on the spindle is as big of an issue as the bearing size, but using a superior material like the Chrome-moly you mentioned is a huge plus. In theory, by incorporating a smaller I.D., or smaller pin design, with the larger O.D. allowed by the truck rotor, GM could then use a bearing with either more rollers, or larger rollers, or possibly both, increasing the weight capacity of that application. The larger/higher roller count disperses the energy more efficiently. For those that may not be familiar with the L10 Life I mentioned in an earlier post, this is a mathematical equation that can predict a 90% failure mode under specific loads. This can literally narrow it down to expected hours of in-service operation, pretty accurate stuff. A few months back, the engineering team I work with had a Lunch-N-Learn seminar with Timken Bearings and the information they shared was tremendous.

Again, kudos to you TCI, for the great development going on!
:metal:

-J

aggie91 03-07-2014 04:41 PM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by slow4dr (Post 6562827)
...For selfish reasons I am pushing them to overengineer everything so I can be able to adapt a long travel set-up onto our crossmember.

-J
I like where this could go. I have a longterm desire to build an older body style 2wd pre-runner style truck with a long travel front suspension..:metal:

slow4dr 04-04-2014 02:17 PM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
More mock up pieces and parts

http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/a...psa4cfde47.jpg

The crossmember is now in its 3rd iteration of the original idea.

http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/a...psa55af7de.jpg

http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/a...psfe117ea9.jpg

http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/a...psc631e6ab.jpg

-J

GEARBOXGARAGE 04-04-2014 02:31 PM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
Awesome job guys! keep it up. How much shock travel are you expecting for the front? Looks like you could get 5" with 12" springs.

aggie91 04-04-2014 03:18 PM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
That's looking good!

slow4dr 04-04-2014 05:44 PM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GEARBOXGARAGE (Post 6611817)
Awesome job guys! keep it up. How much shock travel are you expecting for the front? Looks like you could get 5" with 12" springs.
:metal: We're going to use the 5" travel Ridetech shocks. I am not 100% sure what the motion ratio is but wheel travel will end up around 6.5"-7".

-J

CHRIS67GMC 04-07-2014 09:26 PM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
It is a good thing you are not using the modular spindle. They do not hold up to racing. The pin would actually deflect in the spindle. I went as far as welding them front and back on the pin to help this but it was not enough they still flex bad enough to cause brake knock back.

These trucks are really hard on parts in a autocross/road race environment.

GEARBOXGARAGE 04-09-2014 08:33 AM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRIS67GMC (Post 6617764)
It is a good thing you are not using the modular spindle. They do not hold up to racing. The pin would actually deflect in the spindle. I went as far as welding them front and back on the pin to help this but it was not enough they still flex bad enough to cause brake knock back.

These trucks are really hard on parts in a autocross/road race environment.
Chris,

That's good to know.

duallyjams 04-10-2014 06:27 PM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
Lots of learning on watching this one.

slow4dr 04-22-2014 12:32 PM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
We've made a few more revisions but the project is coming along quickly.

There was some discussion about which c-notch design we were going to use. The round style won out almost unanimously.

http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps4275054e.jpg

http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps91a52ade.jpg

Mocking up the anti-sway bar and a few other items. This crossmember is going to be one beefy dewd once it is all boxed in and fully welded.

http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/a...psf88102f4.jpg

http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps4e5ee70c.jpg

http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/a...pscd027130.jpg


Torque Arm mount, I believe this is revision #2

http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/a...pse1079adb.jpg

-J

Wasted Income 04-22-2014 01:39 PM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
Great minds think alike I guess. :metal:

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...&postcount=143

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/e...psebb4cbe3.jpg

slow4dr 04-22-2014 01:44 PM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wasted Income (Post 6640953)
Great minds think alike I guess. :metal:

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...&postcount=143

:metal: Now if I can just convince the powers that be that we also need a turbo LQ4 under the hood. ;)

-J

Wasted Income 04-22-2014 02:32 PM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
If you guys were closer, I'd take you for a ride. There wouldn't be much more convincing necessary :)

GEARBOXGARAGE 04-22-2014 02:36 PM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
Lookin' good! Really diggin' the front set-up. Have you done any FEA on supporting the rear end with the coilovers behind the C-Notch? A while ago, I ran across a thread that discussed how C-Notching can weaken the frame's integrity. It made some pretty good points. If I run across it again, I'll share the link here. Keep up the good work!

SCOTI 04-22-2014 04:19 PM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GEARBOXGARAGE (Post 6641034)
Lookin' good! Really diggin' the front set-up. Have you done any FEA on supporting the rear end with the coilovers behind the C-Notch? A while ago, I ran across a thread that discussed how C-Notching can weaken the frame's integrity. It made some pretty good points. If I run across it again, I'll share the link here. Keep up the good work!
If it's the discussion I'm thinking about, it's in the FAQ/Suspension stickys....

slow4dr 04-22-2014 05:00 PM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wasted Income (Post 6641025)
If you guys were closer, I'd take you for a ride. There wouldn't be much more convincing necessary :)
The decision makers have driven Skrape's Turbo LS3 Nova Wagon but they are still a bit old school........carbs and all :waah:

I hopped on Craigslist earlier today and found a LQ4/4L80 combo with less than 80K original miles for cheap so I forwarded the link over to them. :lol:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GEARBOXGARAGE (Post 6641034)
Lookin' good! Really diggin' the front set-up. Have you done any FEA on supporting the rear end with the coilovers behind the C-Notch? A while ago, I ran across a thread that discussed how C-Notching can weaken the frame's integrity. It made some pretty good points. If I run across it again, I'll share the link here. Keep up the good work!
The C10 frame is definitely more stout than the pre 60's frames we've been c-notching for 30+ years. These guys are pretty smart though and in some cases we've had to add extra bracing if it wasn't up to snuff.

-J

GEARBOXGARAGE 04-23-2014 02:37 PM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
Glad to see you guys are doing your homework! If you haven't guessed by now, I'm in engineering for my day job, and run a part time speed shop on the side. Unfortunately, that means I'm hard to impress, but you guys are definitely putting the icing on the cake with this. Keep the documentation of the development coming, awesome stuff!

slow4dr 04-23-2014 02:53 PM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
No worries, it's refreshing to hear good questions during this process. We are one of the few companies that doesn't mind posting pics of the "process".


Well, good news, The craigslist link I sent to Sal & Ed about the LQ4/4L80E actually worked. I go pick it up after lunch.

-J

Wasted Income 04-23-2014 03:50 PM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by slow4dr (Post 6642754)
Well, good news, The craigslist link I sent to Sal & Ed about the LQ4/4L80E actually worked. I go pick it up after lunch.

-J
Haha that's awesome. What is the going rate for that combo out by you?

slow4dr 04-23-2014 06:28 PM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wasted Income (Post 6642830)
Haha that's awesome. What is the going rate for that combo out by you?
We picked this one up with 78K miles for $2500. Compared to the aluminum counterparts I have been seeing this was a steal and the 4L80 is icing on the cake.

http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps436566b1.jpg


-J

PGSigns 04-23-2014 08:12 PM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
Looks good guys. I was into street rods in the 80's and used your stuff helping a friend build a couple of model A's. Nice to see you working on this era truck.
Jimmy

GEARBOXGARAGE 04-24-2014 08:36 AM
Re: TCI to start new R&D Project with a C10!
 
Nice grab!


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