Moody's Utah 58 Apache
 

Hello all, Ive been MIA for a few years. I had a chance to move to Newport Beach CA for a few years to live for free all for the name of work so I did. That meant putting a hold on a few projects. I had a 59 but sold it because I didnt want it sitting in a friends garage while i was gone. I found a 58 through a friend and when i moved back to Utah, I bought a house and started back up on the truck.

This one is also in really good shape. Much better than my last one. I got it from a guy that got it from Washington. This was a National Guard truck. Its been painted five different colors that ive seen so far. Here are some pictures of the bad areas. The brown in the pictures are from the paint.

Its got the 6 cyl engine in it but my old man got me a 350 for $200 when I looked up the number on the block it came up with a corvette website. It came out of a van.

Re: Moody's Utah 58 Apache
 

here are a few more pictures

Re: Moody's Utah 58 Apache
 

Welcome (back) to the apache life! Doesn't look too bad, since you can get panels for all the spots you show that need to be cut/welded. What is with the kick ups in the frame on both sides? I've never seen that on our frames before.

Re: Moody's Utah 58 Apache
 

The kick ups on the outside of the frame is right about the rear axle. The one in the middle support bar is just bent

Re: Moody's Utah 58 Apache
 

nothing wrong with a chey 250 6 cylinder.

Re: Moody's Utah 58 Apache
 

Im wondering if anyone that has this same motor could post some pictures of there wiring. My motor will turn but i cant seem to get it to fire up. I think im missing something.

So to be clear im looking for reference pictures for wiring for the six cylinder with the motor generator.

Thanks y'all

Re: Moody's Utah 58 Apache
 

Got the 235 to start and run for a bit, so i decided to upgrade to an alternator sense the generator looked rough and was hard to spin. Its a 1 wire. Im hoping I wired it up correctly for the time being. There is no ignition switch currently and want to keep using the foot starter.

Any of you experts care to chime in on if i did this correctly?

Alternator terminal to the battery then T2 to the alternator terminal and added a ground.

Re: Moody's Utah 58 Apache
 

Maybe this orientation will help.

Re: Moody's Utah 58 Apache
 

I have several wiring diagrams saved in this album. That's not a one wire alternator though. https://app.photobucket.com/u/mr48ch...7-2e4f6ad7da37

Re: Moody's Utah 58 Apache
 

That’s very odd, it says on the box it came in “1 wire alternator”. All those wiring diagrams are based on having an ignition switch. Which I currently do not. I don’t have any electrical components or dash gauges at all.

Re: Moody's Utah 58 Apache
 

Not a true 1 wire but functions the same. Check your voltage output. It may charge hard all the time.

Re: Moody's Utah 58 Apache
 

A true "1 wire" alternator uses an internal connection in the place of the red wire from the output to the voltage sense wire. They have only 1 wire connected to the alternator.

I used to run alternators like your setup but I now recommend adding the missing wire. Originally the missing circuit was powered with ignition power (key on) through EITHER a dash warning light OR a volt gauge. The circuit creates a small magnetic field to form in the rotor which will allow the alternator to start charging almost as soon as the rotor begins to turn. Without the circuit connected the alternator does not begin to charge until residual magnetism creates enough voltage in the alternator for the circuit to self-excite. Generally this happens around 2500-3000 alternator rpm. In many cases it's not a problem. But after accidentally running a battery down by starting the engine and letting the car idle with the lights on for a *bit* I tend to recommend the exciter wire.

Re: Moody's Utah 58 Apache
 

Especially since he doesn't have one, ha ha!

BUT, since a 250 was brought up here’s a picture of one I post whenever guys are planning to do away with a good running straight six. If mine had had a good six in it I would have done this instead of the LS swap I did. Oh well, live and learn.

Re: Moody's Utah 58 Apache
 

if it's a true 1 wire alternator, it has an internally connected regulator and you shouldn't need the wire going to #2 plug. it should've had a rubber plug on 1&2. if it came that way, you got hosed :D i've run many alternators that way, it does work, very well at that

i can see it's an out west truck, i haven't seen a splash shield on the cab corner since the 70s

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/a...1&d=1493412773

Re: Moody's Utah 58 Apache
 

It was a military truck to some degree before I got it and it came from the Washington national guard. The paint code says SPEC on it and under the red is OD green.

I know that this next question has been hashed around, however id appreciate some input. Id like to add an oil filter, I know it doesn't actually filter that much sense the block hasn't been machined. That being said with the set up on the block with the triangle plate towards the front. Would doing the spin on filter be acceptable or should I find a replacement bypass canister? I know that these 235s don't need a filter system, just looking to give a little extra help for this old girl.

At this point I'm waiting for parts to arrive to do the wiring before reassembly.

With the alternator hooked up, new plugs and wire, rebuild carb. She fires right up and runs pretty good.

Re: Moody's Utah 58 Apache
 

Considering how little the filter actually does, and how nice modern oil is, and how few miles you'll put on that oil compared to the modern vehicles its designed for, I'd leave it plugged and just change the oil once a year unless you drive the truck often.

If I insisted on having a filter, it would be a trans-dapt and spin-on for me so replacements are simple and easy, plus it just looks cleaner with the filter down low v. bolted to the manifold. I assume if you cared about looking factory, you wouldn't even be asking and would already plan for an OEM filter.

Re: Moody's Utah 58 Apache
 

check out the tri5 site for a free downloadable assembly manual. it will help you with some of your questions about how stuff was put together or where it goes. google 55-59 assembly manual and pick the tri5 site. it becomes valuable when you are cutting out old sheet metal for replacement as it shows where and how many spot welds you need to find and drill out.
do you have a plan for the truck? all stock just basically get it all working and safe and drive it like that? upgrade some stuff to make it easier to drive but a stock look? sometghing else?
post up some full side shots if you can, looks waaay better than my current project when I first got it.

Re: Moody's Utah 58 Apache
 

there is a cheap pigtail plug in available for those alternators once the time comes for a wiring job. I think napa sells them or online for sure. it's a 10si or a 12si alt. the rubber cover for the large power cable is also available from napa or online. if you google the delco 10si wirng you will see lots of info on how they were wired up with a dash light OR a dash volt gauge.

Re: Moody's Utah 58 Apache
 

if thinking of a rebuild on the sbc do the math first because the LS engines seem to be what everybody is upgrading to these days. the new small block swap so they say. nothing wrong with the 6 cyl or the sbc you have on the floor. just saying, fuel injection-easy starts, good idle, less finicky with elevation changes, programmable fuel curve, easily sourced from a write off lot with a donor vehicle that will come with a lot of the stuff you need, then sell the other not needed donor vehicle parts. you need space for all that though.
I recommend to get a plan and stick to it. less costly than changing your mind part way through.

Re: Moody's Utah 58 Apache
 

I like that valve cover.

Re: Moody's Utah 58 Apache
 

Gee engine swap’s are fun and for something a bit different one could drop in a Chevy 292 6 cylinder OR say a bit more modern (and complicated) Trailblazer 6 cylinder OR real different a S 10 5 cylinder .
Now if you really want to piss off the crowd a Ford 300 6 cylinder in a Chevy !
Perhaps a Dodge slant 6 with a A500 automatic .
Or something made of unobtainum like a Pontiac Overhead cam 6 .

The preceding madness brought to you by “Wandering Minds” after too much ….

Re: Moody's Utah 58 Apache
 

I have the gmc envoy 4.2L in my 57. it is the atlas engine that the inline 5 and inline 4 from the smaller chevy trucks post S10 have. they simply lop off a cylinder or 2.

Re: Moody's Utah 58 Apache
 

The Ford 300 I-6 is just a copy of the Chevy L-25 292 L6. The L-25 came out in late '62 for the 1963 Model Year. Ford just reverse engineered* the design, and bored it over .060 -- releasing it in 1965.
*[Literally, the 300 has the intake/exhaust and carb on the passenger side. While the Chevy L6's are on the drivers side.]
Chrysler Slant Sixes only came as big as 225 CI. Contrary to Urban Myth, they were not originally one-half of a surplus Allison V12 aircraft engine block. The 30* offset design was borrowed from Mercedes Benz [M186] who used it to get lower hood lines on the SL300 Gull Wing
:chevy:

Re: Moody's Utah 58 Apache
 

dsraven That's cool !

How about this 225 c.i. (3.7L) Slant 6 with an Aussie 4v manifold 3 into 1 headers , cam etc. or 3 Weber's this would look cool under the hood and go !

Ok back to the O.P.

Re: Moody's Utah 58 Apache
 

i found the perfect motor for alexmoody.... providing he checks in again this year :D
the I6 is back! 3.0L twin turbo 500hp, it's mopar but who cares anymore

though i'd have to cut all that plastic off to see the motor

https://www.motortrend.com/uploads/2...d%7C770:481.25

Re: Moody's Utah 58 Apache
 

Alright, I know im not on here much, I travel alot for work and especially with a new baby. Time is limited.

I think ill stick with the 235 that is in it for now but i wont rule anything out yet.

Ive done some work, new brake booster on the firewall. wiring harness has been started a few patch panels.

For the brake lines on these old rigs, are they all 1/4 or are they 3/16. I want to order new lines and re do them all front to back?

Re: Moody's Utah 58 Apache
 

1/4" for drum, 3/16" for disk
imo, its a lot easier to buy premade straight lines at autozone and just bend them to fit
you can get 6" to 5' lines with a flare and nut on each end

congrats on the baby!
glad those days are behind me, #5 grandkid is 3 days old :D

Congratulations to you too then!

Thanks for the info on the brakes. I’ll run down later today and snag some lines up.
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Re: Moody's Utah 58 Apache
 

I know you're not asking but what the hell:

My '55's dash only had two additional holes for slightly differently spaced radio knobs and I welded in replacement metal to make it appear stock. In hindsight I wish I'd bought the totally smooth repalkcemet dash and gotten rid of all my dash holes in eluding the heater controls then moved my Vintage Air AC controls to where the original ash tray was. With the giant hole in your dash it'd be easy to justify.

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It’s a big hole for sure. This truck was a fire truck of some kind in the coast gaurd and I’m presuming that was for a CB radio. I’ve already replaced that section to make it original.

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Ive been reassembling the front end after getting some holes filled on the firewall and all new brake system put in.

I have a few questions for the experts on the inner fenders. First, I've lost the four bolts and large washers for the inner fenders that pass through the grommets. Can someone that knows the size of those let me know? Id like to order them for when I'm back in town they will be there ready to install.

Second my inner fender has a large gap on the top and touching on the bottom, Im presuming this is because not everything is bolted down tight but wanted to confirm that after everything is bolted on and snugged up it will correct itself?

Lastly ive got the new foam/anit squeak and I believe I know where they all go, how ever one came split open the other didn't. Im sure it doesn't matter but maybe my thoughts on how they attach are wrong.

Re: Moody's Utah 58 Apache
 

to start, since you say the gaps are not even close to same, check out the cab mounts and also the rad support mounts. the cab sits on rubber at the rear and steel on steel at the front, then the rad support sits on rubber. if these rubber mounts are hard, cracked or missing then the cab can be allowed to sag down at the rear and this can affect the gaps. same for the rad support. also check the steel around the cab mounts to make sure the area is not rusted out. these trucks tended to get rain or snow melt caught in the inner cowl vent plenum that runs across the front of the cab by the windshield and then down each side to the floor vents and end up draining just below the vents. the drain hole is small and also has a little flap of steel screwed on to partially block the hole further. over time leaves, pine needles or ice can block the hole so rain or snow melt can build up to the point that it drained out through the floor vent out onto the floor of the cab, pooled there or ran down the step area and pooled there until it could dry or get out the door to step seal. this has rotted out more than a few task force trucks and that is why there are replacement parts available for the lower hinge pillar area, front cab mount area and the step and rocker area.
if those areas are all good, sheet metal wise, i would check the assembly manual fot the frame drawings and get the dimension between the floor of the cab and the frame. then check that against your truck. get the cab correct and then check the rad support mounts and get that area correct. after that the discrepancy for the inner fenders is likely just a manufactture flaw. the assembly manual will also show the correct assembly of the anti squeak foam and the bolt required at the firewall mount lower "L" brackets.
the assembly manual can be downloaded free at the trifve site. google

55-59 chevrolet truck factory assembly manual

and click on the trifive site

or try this link

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...hgNerbXG4oM_J-

Re: Moody's Utah 58 Apache
 

like dsraven says, check all the body mounts. you really ought to change them all. with a gap like that, chances are the front fenders will fit similar to the inner fenders. make sure the core support mount is assembled correctly. either your core support is too high or the back of the cab is, possibly both. i've included the diagram for the core support, everything is available as a kit with bolts, washers, rubber washers and spacer, the spacer allows the bolt to tighten and still allow the core support movement.

2nd pic shows the 58-59 assembles differently than previous years; cab, core support, then inner fenders. makes it easier to build imo

remember that both L brackets bolt on the same direction, not left and right. last pic we put the front clip on to cut out for the mustII, the L bracket is exposed on the pass side, you only see the washer on the drivers side. last two pics show both brackets

Awesome. Thank you for the replies. My core support and mounting hardware are all knew and as I remember from how I put them together it looks like that photo you attached. That must mean it’s the cab mounts. I’ll get a set ordered. I didn’t see any mention on that tri five link about bolt sizes for the 4 grommet bolts. I’ll figure it out when I get home and not on airport wifi.
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Re: Moody's Utah 58 Apache
 

I seem to remember those rubber bushings in the inner fenders had a steel insert so they would bottom out on the insert bushing before the rubber got mashed down too tight. Maybe check that in the assembly manual. You kinda need the manual when putting things back to stock so you know how it is supposed to be, not how the last guy who worked on it put it together. Well worth it to download to a stick so you can plug it in and it doesnt take hard drive space.

Re: Moody's Utah 58 Apache
 

Check the integrity of the metal around the cab mounts as well.
I believe that if the frame is level then the cab step would also be level. I use a digital torpedo level for this and if a longer run is nedded, like across grame rails maybe, I use a longer level with the digital level sitting on top. Digital is gonna give the same reading no matter what angle you look at it. A bubble level should be looked at from directly in front for a more accurate reading. Some are simply "close" no matter how you look at it.

Re: Moody's Utah 58 Apache
 

The fun of having an engine that should but won't fire.

Show us a good clear photo of the distributor side of the engine that shows the wiring and maybe we can help figure it out.


Looking at that WA National Guard sticker. It didn't belong to the Guard, it was a pesonal Vehicle of a Guards member parking permit. You had to have that sticker to get on Post at Fort Lewis, the Yakima Training center or maybe even park in the lot at one of the NG armories.

The bill of sale I have when I bought it say “department of homeland security US coast guard bill of sale”

Perhaps it was a retired vehicle that someone was using while it was still owned by the coast guard.
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Re: Moody's Utah 58 Apache
 

I drove the truck out of its parking spot today, first time moving under its own power in about 25 years. Im having an issue with my brakes. I have a firewall mounted brake booster for drum/drum brakes and all new lines plumed. However, when the truck is off I can pump the brake and it feels firm. When it's running the brake has no resistance. The booster has a vacuum line that runs to the intake manifold under the carb. Sense the brakes are doing nothing, does this mean my wheel cylinders are bad or need to be rebuilt? Or do I still have air in my lines? Im not loosing fluid when I pump the brakes. The vacuum line definitely has vacuum.

Also, I can't find any wheel cylinders or rebuild kits for a 3600 3/4 ton. Everything is 3100 1/2 ton. Are they the same size?

I pulled it out to replace the cab mounts so I can get the inner fenders to line up better but in doing this I rolled into my '70 Baja bug and crushed a fender a little.

Re: Moody's Utah 58 Apache
 

when you start the truck does the brake pedal raise or drop at all? maybe an internal leak in the booster. when the truck is running try a stethoscope and listen for air leakage where the pushrod from the pedal goes into the booster. also, when the engine is shut off, the booster should be able to hold a vacuum, enough for one emergency stop application. if you pull the check valve off there should be a whoosh as vacuum is released.
here is a couple of quick reads on testing

https://www.yourmechanic.com/article...-brake-booster

https://www.wikihow.com/Test-a-Brake-Booster