Tbi swap build thread

[grandfisher]

Originally Posted by rfmaster

Welcome to the thread
Some of 454 HD applications did not use KS and ESC module. These 454 HD (BCC) calibrations deliberately keep spark advance low thus keeping engine from knocking when under load. The purpose of KS and ESC module is to provide indication back to ECM when engine knock is occurring.
The question is what you're trying to do with your TBI swap - i.e what engine are you trying to EFI (350/454) and trany?

IRC HD 454 calibrations were used on on 3/4 and 1 ton trucks.

//RF

The 454 TBI system is from a 92 1 ton with 4l80e. I'm putting it in my 76 4x4 crew cab with stock 454 and NV4500. I think I've elemintated the wiring specific to automatic transmission control.
What it the function or purpose of the red/white wire coming out of the FP relay? It's labeled "fuel pump prime" and diagrams show it terminating at what I assume is supposed to be a plug connector. This wire was ran into a connector that contained the auto trans wires, and I couldn't find a diagram for that connection. Other than that, I think everything is looking good.

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by grandfisher

The 454 TBI system is from a 92 1 ton with 4l80e. I'm putting it in my 76 4x4 crew cab with stock 454 and NV4500. I think I've elemintated the wiring specific to automatic transmission control.
What it the function or purpose of the red/white wire coming out of the FP relay? It's labeled "fuel pump prime" and diagrams show it terminating at what I assume is supposed to be a plug connector. This wire was ran into a connector that contained the auto trans wires, and I couldn't find a diagram for that connection. Other than that, I think everything is looking good.

FP prime wire (red-white) is connected to NC contacts of FP relay (in OE configuration). This connection allows you to prime or test fuel system with ignition off by applying +12 volts to it. It is FP diagnostic terminal.

//RF

[Jonboy]

I found the cause of my high idle, and it's a rookie mistake. I used the original '74 accelerator cable, and it is just barely too short. Disconnected the cable, and TPS voltage went right to .52V. Duh. The cable I got from my '87 donor looks like it is way too long, but it may just have to make a coil and do the job. I will try to pick up another one tomorrow to compare the two.

Anyhow, I did find that if you slot the holes in the early style TPS, you don't gain much adjustability. There are two raised areas on the back of the TPS body that keep it from rotating. I was able to set the timing, and it settled down to about a 600 RPM idle. Sounds just like the engine it replaced. I think I will be glad that I did the swap when I get the truck back from getting A/C.

[grandfisher]

Thanks RF.

[Cruz]

New here at the forums…….
Just completed my TBI conversion on a 79 ½ ton Stepside
First a little description on what I am working on…….
8000 miles on a rebuilt 350 flat top pistons, RV Cam, ported 194 heads, long tube headers 194* thermostat and a turbo 400,
TBI system is from an 89 1500 this includes 7477 ECM and ANLW broadcast code A stock 89 intake modified to be used on non-center bolt heads (no Vacuum leaks) with EGR intact, Wiring harness, all sensors EST, FP Relay etc. and Small HEI distributor. I am running the stock 79 tanks with a frame mounted pump (NAPA 5100) with a pre and post fuel filters. 89 factory fuel lines from the Throttle body to the fuel tank switching valve. Stock 79 fuel lines and switching valve to the tanks. The conversion was done with relays installed for the P/N switch and a 4-wire O2 sensor mounted in the collector of the driver side header. Knock sensor relocated to the manual clutch mounting boss just above the oil filter because of stripped block drain plugs and the only access to them to drill and tap is to remove the motor.
TBI rebuilt, IAC reset, TPS set to .50 (slotted the TPS sensor) timing set to 0*with timing connector disconnected.
Starts and idles good cold/warm, drivability ..fair
Now on to my Questions….
Code 43 set under hard acceleration replaced the knock sensor …. No change… code comes back after hard acceleration. Still need to check the wiring at the ESC. When I do the WOT test I get a large backfire through the Throttle body then the code is set.
Which makes me think it is running lean. Ideas?
Next question
Rfmaster posted a wiring diagram showing the O2 sensor and the relay wiring (post #307) does it matter which white wire from the O2 (there are 2) goes to the relay or ground?
Winaldl cable is on the way…. So that I may be able to do some data logging…..
Any help would be great
T.I.A
Cruz

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by Cruz

New here at the forums…….
Just completed my TBI conversion on a 79 ½ ton Stepside
First a little description on what I am working on…….
8000 miles on a rebuilt 350 flat top pistons, RV Cam, ported 194 heads, long tube headers 194* thermostat and a turbo 400,
TBI system is from an 89 1500 this includes 7477 ECM and ANLW broadcast code A stock 89 intake modified to be used on non-center bolt heads (no Vacuum leaks) with EGR intact, Wiring harness, all sensors EST, FP Relay etc. and Small HEI distributor. I am running the stock 79 tanks with a frame mounted pump (NAPA 5100) with a pre and post fuel filters. 89 factory fuel lines from the Throttle body to the fuel tank switching valve. Stock 79 fuel lines and switching valve to the tanks. The conversion was done with relays installed for the P/N switch and a 4-wire O2 sensor mounted in the collector of the driver side header. Knock sensor relocated to the manual clutch mounting boss just above the oil filter because of stripped block drain plugs and the only access to them to drill and tap is to remove the motor.
TBI rebuilt, IAC reset, TPS set to .50 (slotted the TPS sensor) timing set to 0*with timing connector disconnected.
Starts and idles good cold/warm, drivability ..fair
Now on to my Questions….
Code 43 set under hard acceleration replaced the knock sensor …. No change… code comes back after hard acceleration. Still need to check the wiring at the ESC. When I do the WOT test I get a large backfire through the Throttle body then the code is set.
Which makes me think it is running lean. Ideas?
Next question
Rfmaster posted a wiring diagram showing the O2 sensor and the relay wiring (post #307) does it matter which white wire from the O2 (there are 2) goes to the relay or ground?
Winaldl cable is on the way…. So that I may be able to do some data logging…..
Any help would be great
T.I.A
Cruz

Welcome to the TBI thread.

From your description it would appear that you did everything right with few minor gotchas.

1) KS location is critical as this sensor 'listens' to engine for pinging noise. Moving KS from water jacket drain hole to the old Z-bar hole may result to a host of new noises being pickup by KS. I simply do not know. Also, newer KS tend to be more sensitive and pick-up engine noise that is not related to pinging. A Code 43 is set when the ECM sees a constant knock condition even after pulling back the timing if ESC input signal has been low more than 2.23 seconds. ECM will latch Code 43 until reset.
With that in mind engine with headers and flat tappet lifters are prone to Code 43. To get around this problem I used a 90 degree elbow which acts as an attenuator. Also, using CCC based ESC module (do not recall part number) improves noise filtering (4 pole vs 3 pole filter network). The combination of the two got my false knock under control which was due exhaust system resonances - around 1800 to 2000 RPM I would get a flurry of KS induced timing retard. During JY trip I would look for early to mid 80's CCC equipped cars (Chevy/Olds/Buicks) as a source for this ESC module.

2) The pops through the TB may indicate lean condition or timing over advanced. Since you are using ANLW BCC timing is probably on a conservative side so I'll set timing concern aside. The question is do you give your engine enough fuel during WOT??? I have not seen specs for NAPA 5100 pump - you need to have minimum of 20 PSI to have enough fuel delivered at WOT. Did you ever measured fuel pressure? Keep this in mind, that during WOT ECM will command injectors to dump enough fuel to achieve an equivalent of 12.5:1 AFR based on VE tables. If these tables are off (and they are probably are) commanded injector pulse width will be of as well - lean pops. Since we are dealing with 80's design ECM and narrow band O2 sensor that is only accurate around 14.7:1. ECM has no clue if correct WOT AFR has been achieved. The only way to find out is to monitor exhaust gases during WOT (and elsewhere). Why - well anytime you change volumetric efficiency of an engine - and in your case you did (camshaft, cam porting, and free flowing exhaust) - WOT fuel requirements will change as well. To do this you'll need to invest into WBO or have your truck dyno tuned. WBO is least expensive way. I use ZT-2 from Zeitronix for tuning.

3) BOSCH O2 sensor (15732) has two white wires. These are used for heater circuit and completely interchangeable (it is a heating coil and there is no polarity).

//RF

[Cruz]

Thanks RF for the reply….
What is the definition of CCC?
Fuel pressure was tested… I have a constant 20 psi of fuel pressure…… due to mechanical restrictions of the fuel system between the tank switch valve and the fuel tanks….. This will be resolved when I can acquire the right fuel tanks and switch valve for my short step….. I believe I am limited to only 2 years the will fit the shot step side….
The new KS was a shot in the dark… literally… out on my test drive last night….. I still want to look at the wiring… I modified a stock harness for this project…… no matter how many times you check…… well you know the story…..
Can the prom be modified to use a Wide band O2?
Cruz

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by Cruz

Thanks RF for the reply….
What is the definition of CCC?
Fuel pressure was tested… I have a constant 20 psi of fuel pressure…… due to mechanical restrictions of the fuel system between the tank switch valve and the fuel tanks….. This will be resolved when I can acquire the right fuel tanks and switch valve for my short step….. I believe I am limited to only 2 years the will fit the shot step side….
The new KS was a shot in the dark… literally… out on my test drive last night….. I still want to look at the wiring… I modified a stock harness for this project…… no matter how many times you check…… well you know the story…..
Can the prom be modified to use a Wide band O2?
Cruz

CCC stands for Computer Command Control that GM used during early part of 80's to get emission compliance. TBI uses a lot of modules from CCC system and some of the circuits are the same. In particular knock detection (KS + ESC) and distributor spark control are the same. I can go on about this for pages, perhaps some other time.

For fuel system I recommend running 3/8" (or -6AN) for supply and 3/8 or 5/16" for return. Do not use 1/4" vapor return line - it is too small - this will result in back pressure and TB FPR will not function correctly. I also use Pollack Fuel switch over valves - they seem to work OK.

EPROM can be modified based on WBO readings. This is called tuning - and it will allow you to dial in VE/SA tables to gain performance that is not offered by OE calibration. There are naturally equipment costs and learning curve associated with tuning, but it is the only way to get performance from any EFI (non stock setup). Tuning is next step since no one is happy with less than optimum performing engine.

As a side note - ZT2 can monitor multiple inputs - MAP, TPS, RPM in addition to wide band O2 readings. Couple this with ALDL readings on a lappy and you can overlay the ALDL and ZT2 data in excel and extrapolate VE compensation. This will require a little bit of data post processing, but it can be done (been there and done that). A better (more $$$ money) way is to convert your 7747 ECM with EBL conversion kit (Dynamic EFI). EBL can accept input from WBO (and other sensors) for data logging. EBL also has a slick self learning feature - VE learn. It can automatically generate corrections to VE tables based on drive data! WBO is needed for AE and PE tuning as well as WOT AFR tuning. There are no chips to burn in EBL - it is a self contained board with RS-232 to a lappy interface. See one of my videos.

I run EBL on all my EFI conversions, but I went through all tuning stages - ALDL, EPROM burning, until I came across EBL - not cheap, but well worth the money.

I'll try to dig up ESC module part number used in CCC applciations - it is a code printed on a paper label.

//RF

[benoit454]

wow nice work and alot of pages.

if I missed it sorry but why all the wiring? could you not use a 87 or newere engine wiring harness and computer along with the intake dist and such and not have to do so much wiring just simple plug and play?

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by benoit454

wow nice work and alot of pages.

if I missed it sorry but why all the wiring? could you not use a 87 or newere engine wiring harness and computer along with the intake dist and such and not have to do so much wiring just simple plug and play?

Well - that's the general idea, but when you try to draft 87+ EFI harness into 35+ old truck things must be interfaced correctly. That's were most problems arise. You have to adapt (the list is not that long ) to provide functional voltages and signals that ECM can use. I think a while back I made a list.

//RF

[benoit454]

really, I thought if it was plugged into the fuse box and then had the firewall mounted junction block that it would be enough.

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by benoit454

really, I thought if it was plugged into the fuse box and then had the firewall mounted junction block that it would be enough.

Well - not that simple. While it is true ECM needs IGN and BAT (+12volt), you also need to connect IGN +12 for injectors, P/N switch, brake switch, TC control for 350C or 700R4 trany and VSS to make the best out of ECM.

//RF

[neto]

RF if my engine is a 95 tbi. Do the injectors from this year need a higher fuel pressure then the 88-92? I went to get an ECM at the jy but unable to find the ASDU prom model. Lots of 1227747 from different vehicles with different prom codes. Will they also work? Some didn't have a prom code at all.
Thanks
Ernest

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by neto

RF if my engine is a 95 tbi. Do the injectors from this year need a higher fuel pressure then the 88-92? I went to get an ECM at the jy but unable to find the ASDU prom model. Lots of 1227747 from different vehicles with different prom codes. Will they also work? Some didn't have a prom code at all.
Thanks
Ernest

Good questions Ernest.

93 to 95 model years were transition years for GM EFI before the advent of the OBD-II with 95 being the last year that TBI was used widely (4.3, 5.0, 5.7 & 7.4L) and there are reports of federal '96 vans that were equipped with TBI). The only high fuel pressure (27 to 32 PSI) TBI injectors were used on 93-95 454 TBI engines. If you have 305 or 350 TBI engine (87 to 95) 13 to 15 PSI should be the norm. So, which 95 engine do you have?

1227747 ECM was used on V6 and V8 applications and can be used on I4, flat 6 and L6 with proper EPROM modifications. The difference between V6 and V8 7747 ECM includes EPROM calibration and NATRES chip - used for limp mode. When roaming JY, ideally look for ECM that matches your engine displacement. I am assuming that you are looking for 350 ECM. The following list contains a small number of BCC's that were used with 350 CID. ECM's loose their service stickers, but if you remove access panel - the EPROM chip almost always have BCC sticker on it.

Common 5.7 (350) BCC codes used in C/K trucks (auto and man)

1989 ANLW
1989 ANLX
1989 ANLY
1989 ANLZ
1987 ANMW
1990 ANSY
1990 ANSZ
1990 ANTA
1990 ANTB
1990 ANTC
1990 ANTD
1991 ARHT
1991 ARHU
1991 ARJT
1991 ARJU
1991 ARJX
1989 ASDT
1989 ASDU
1987 ASDW
1988 ASDX
1989 ASDY
1989 ASDZ



//RF

[neto]

I have the 5.7 engine. Thank you for the help. Now I can go to the jy with this information and find one. Thanks again.

[neto]

Thanks again. I got the right pcm with the right eprom code that was in a 91 truck. I even pulled the wiring harness. There was only the alternator connection missing and it was pulled out from the drivers side area only. I like how easy it came out, just one bolt. I think that's how I'm going to mount it on my 66.

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by neto

Thanks again. I got the right pcm with the right eprom code that was in a 91 truck. I even pulled the wiring harness. There was only the alternator connection missing and it was pulled out from the drivers side area only. I like how easy it came out, just one bolt. I think that's how I'm going to mount it on my 66.

If you have a digital camera - please take pictures. I know there are guys out there with pre 73 trucks who would like to run EFI. This thread was built on sharing information and experiences related to our trucks.

//RF

[neto]

You got it.

[mocajoes]

Wow I have been reading tons about this in this thread, I started back in 2008 glad to see you guys are still helping guys like me,
Im sure you hate to hear another here we go again but thats what I am.
I have a 70 Chevy swb 4x4. I traded for a complete 60k 5.7 out of a 94 pkup.
I aquired the complete motor harness under the hood and harness under the dash as well as the computer. The guy actually gave me two computers I am guessing one is actually the radio amp. and I got the fuel tank and lines.
I have huge plans and very skeptical. Will this all work as a stand alone with my th350 tranny and what is the black box attached to the harness looks like abs maybe? Do I need the 94 under the dash harness. and the tank is way to big to fit under the truck. Will the factory tank behind the seat work with added return line or is that even possible.
Tons more questions but we will start there.
You guys are great! thanks for the help.
Brian

[mocajoes]

This is the truck the Tbi will be going in .

[rfmaster]

Hey Brian

Welcome to the thread. That's a cool 70 SWB you got there - and you are using for 4x4!

As for TBI swap - need to set a plan. It is not bad as long as you do it step by step. First lets figure out what you have. The 94 5.7L engine in its stock form should be adequate for your off road excursions.
Take a look at your PCM - it should have a label which will contain a service number. In 94 C/K applications 16168625 were common, although some were replaced with later 16197427 service part number. In addition to service number there should be a broadcast code - a four letter code used by GM to designate calibration, for example BJLH or BMLD plus many others. Service part number will contain Serv. NO and BCC on top line, bar code in the middle and additional code below below bar code.

PCM can also be identified by its two harness connectors - one blue(E1-E16; F1-F16) & one red (A1- A16; B1 -B16).

//RF

[mocajoes]

RF thank you for the info. My shop is 45 miles away so I will get that info soon and let you know what I have Thanks again.

[mocajoes]

Here is what I found on the comp. Hope you can read it Thanks again!

[rfmaster]

Brian

You have a P4 PCM - power train controller which is capable of controlling both EFI and E-style transmissions (4L60E, 4L80E). It also has advanced idle compensation algorithms which allow for a quicker adaptation to engine changes. But this is advance stuff - which means very little to you right now. The foremost question - which transmission are you going to use in your truck? Unlike earlier C3 style ECM (1227747) the PCM can be easily adapted for use with non electronically controlled transmission such as 700R4, TH350/400 or manual gear box. To make this change requires a EPROM update (there is a bit when set tells PCM that engine is back-up by manual box). Updating requires opening up PCM extracting EPROM chip and installing a altered EPROM in its place.

There are several ways to go about:

1) Contact commercial chip burner, for example Brian at http://www.TBIchips.com/ or
2) doing it yourself - requires EProm programmer, adapter PCB, FLASH chip from http://www.moates.net/ or if you are computer savvy DIY.

BTW 16196395 PCM EPROM definition can be found on tunerPro "$0E.xdf" and EPROM contents can be altered using TunerPro RT. For real time engine run parameters TunerProRT can capture ALDL data stream so that you can see what PCM is doing based on engine and sensor parameters in real dime.

Links of interest
http://www.TBIchips.com/
http://www.moates.net/
http://tunerpro.net/
http://tunerpro.net/downloadBinDefs.htm
http://www.mcumall.com/comersus/


//RF

[mocajoes]

Wow that is a vast amount of information thank you again. I am glag to hear that it will work. Yes I am going to use a th350 tranny so I will be trying to decide the best way to go. I had to go out of town till Saturday so I will try to catch back up then. First things first I need to get the old engine out and get the new one in. Not sure how to address the fuel tank. I have the factory 94 tank with pump in it but, it seems way too big to fit under my truck and Im pretty sure the original behind the seat wont work as there are no return lines and no vent line. Thank you for the great in depth info be back soon.
Brian