47-55.1 235 Replacement required

[bootman49]

So about a year ago I convinced my brother to purchase a 235 from a 1960ish Chevrolet Impala as opposed to rebuilding a 1952 235 that his 49 1 ton came with. Nobody inspected it and a cover was thrown over until just recently. How's this for a surprise?

Weld the crack or should I be looking for another motor or short block?

[mick53]

Did it freeze?

[Quindel3100]

There could be more internal damaged, i would look for another,they arent that rare to go thru all the trouble of repairing that mess.

[bootman49]

Originally Posted by mick53

Did it freeze?

We don't know. We don't recall spilling any water when we unloaded it. Sure looks like it froze.

[bootman49]

Originally Posted by Quindel3100

There could be more internal damaged, i would look for another,they arent that rare to go thru all the trouble of repairing that mess.

I'm thinking to find a rebuildable motor or block and transfer all the internal parts.

[mikebte]

Originally Posted by bootman49

I'm thinking to find a rebuildable motor or block and transfer all the internal parts.

2nd on the block. Should be able to find a new block without many issues or maybe even a complete.

[dsraven]

that is what a frozen block looks like. it is a boat anchor now. to have a crack that long repaired would be expensive and then you are taking a chance on a leak afterwards. one way to repair is to arc weld with the correct rod alloys etc. the block is cast iron, not steel, so a different process is required in order to reduce the possibility of the cast cracking next to the weld due to expansion/contraction rates of the dissimilar metals (block and rod material plus whatever alloy is formed with the molten weld bead). the block is thoroughly cleaned to get rid of any oils etc that may have leached into the metal, then prepped by v grooving the crack and ensuring the "ends" are found. then it is placed in an oven and brought up to a high temp, then welded and placed back in the oven to be brought back down to room temp slowly. the reason for the oven is to heat the entire casting up to 1200 deg so the weld will coll slowly and reduce the possibility of residual weld stresses which can cause the crack to extend out past the weld as the part cools down or cause another crack right next to the weld. some will peen the weld right after the bead is laid down and this can help the stress level. cast iron has a high carbon content compared to steel so it is brittle. the critical temp for cast is about 1400 deg. welding is considerably higher than that so it is critical to be aware of the proper process when welding. short weld beads are recommended with time between beads spent in the oven to keep overall temps uniform to allow the bead to cool slowly. the weld area is usually harder material than the cast iron block and so different expansion rates will always be the issue as well as the stresses caused by welding. obviously a low current bead would be recommended so the heat of welding would be less. if you can imagine the labour hours to weld a crack like your engine has you can see that it would be cost prohibitive. welding cast is usually left for those high dollar or hard to find cast iron parts. here is a link that would possibly better explain the processes and help you understand why it is expanesive to weld cast. theother problem is that the engine really should be checked for warpage after something like this happens. first there is the misalignment that could happen simply from the ice expansion inside the block that caused the crack in the first place, then, if welded, the distortion possibly caused from the high heat and welding. a check to ensure that long crankshaft is sitting an a parallel bore would definately be high on my list of to do's before assembling.

https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-c...on-detail.aspx

the other way to repair cast iron is called cold metal stitching. it is basically started by tieing the crack area together with a strips of metal drilled into the casting at 90 deg to the crack. then starting at one end of the crack and drilling a hole into the crack so the hole would extend through the casting or at least past the bottom of the crack. a tapered threaded plug is installed and then another hole is drilled, partially overlapping the plug, and another plug is installed into that hole. the process continues until the crack is completely stitched back together. this process would be quite expensive to use on a crack as long as what you have there and is not really that reliable on something like an engine block that is prone to high temperature differentials. like cold winter day to hot engine after a big pull on, say, a long hill where the engine temp goes up to almost boiling water temp. here is a couple of links that better describe the system with a couple of pics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_stitching

https://www.metalockengineering.com/...tal-stitching/

end of the day? cheaper and better to replace the engine or at least the block.

[dsraven]

compounding the issue, of course, would be if there is an oil gallery in or near the crack site or if the crack reaches through to affect, say, a cam bearing bore or a main bearing cap seat or bolt area. sorry man. cheaper to take the loss and grab a good runner (seen running with the appropriate checks done, cooling system pressure check, compression dry and wet, oil pressure cold and hot etc) or rebuilt with warranty.
some will say to fix with jb weld. I would say sure, try it for the short term but you know it is a leak waiting to happen and personally I wouldn't feel secure doing a highway trip with it especially if the crack is over a pressure area, like the cooling system. a crack has 2 sides, inside and out. you can skim/plug the outside with some sort of goop but there is still the back side to worry about.
use it for parts if required.
if you still have the original engine from the truck I would suggest to dissassemble that, have it properly dunked/cleaned and checked and a quote to rebuild. or use it for a core. 235 heads also have issues with cracking so if you are planning on a short block you really should dissassemble, clean and check the head as well. if planning on a rebuild don't get rid of any of the parts until the rebuild is complete. you may need a head or some other part you can scrounge from one of the other engines.
whatever you do, thoroughly clean and check all the parts. there are spray crack check products available as well as any good engine shop would usually have a better system for checking cracks, magnaflux, die penetrant, ultrasonic, pressure or vacuum testing are a few.

here is a good article that talks about engine cracks and checks/repair methods probably better than I can explain it.

https://www.enginebuildermag.com/201...nd-correction/

[whitedog76]

I totally agree with DSRAVEN. A little too close to the main oil galley for comfort.

235's pop up every once in a while. Usually it's somebody getting rid of a complete chassis. I would advise finding a running one to start out with. They are way too expensive to rebuild otherwise. I've had 3 235's over the years that came through my garage. All of them had issues, so I'm now doing a late model swap.

Anyhow, I would keep your Impala head. The car heads had slighlty better compression than the trucks. Also, keep all your brackets, etc... Keep all your rocker arm parts straight, there was a few variations.

[dsraven]

here is a nice little article with some history and a bit of the same circumstance with regards to finding a good runner and things to look for. the other thing you could check into is a later model engine but the engine mounts would likely be on the side versus the front and they may also be a tad longer so fan clearance could become an issue. something to watch out for would be the 6volt to 12 volt engine flywheel ring gear tooth count and a matching starter. there are differences and if it isn't right it will grind badly

https://www.rodauthority.com/tech-st...-do-we-do-now/

[dsraven]

a little inline 6 info if you haven't seen it yet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevro...aight-6_engine

[dsraven]

a few ID tips in case you find a "core" somewhere and not sure exactly what it is

https://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/e...tification.htm

[bootman49]

Originally Posted by dsraven

a few ID tips in case you find a "core" somewhere and not sure exactly what it is

https://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/e...tification.htm

Thanks for the information, I will be watching all the usual listing places to buy a replacement.

[mr48chev]

Good 235 blocks aren't that hard to find or that expensive. I'd pull that engine down and sort out everything I can save and swap to a new block.

Around here the heads bring more money than the rest of the engine because they used up most of the 235 heads in the 70's and 80's when they used AD trucks as hop trucks in the hop fields around here. One hop yard had a fleet of about 50 AD trucks to haul hops from the fields to the kiln where the The boles/pods were separated from the vines and leaves. Now some hop companies have picking machines that separate the boles in the fields as they hops are picked and other yards use fleets of newer trucks.

[bootman49]

Thanks MR48, I have a lead on a 1963 6 cyl and I am waiting to hear what the block cast # is. Don't think it is a 235 and don't think it will swap but will try to do research to confirm.

[dsraven]

if it is a 63 it may be the later style block. you can tell because the bellhousing flange is part of the engine block and not a bolt on part. check the link to wiki for a description of the lineage.
for me, a newer style engine would be the no brainer. more stuff to choose from at the parts store.

[whitedog76]

I don't k know if you're a member at Stovebolt.com, but here's a for sale ad that's not too far from Chicagoland.

https://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthreads...ml#Post1289805

[bootman49]

Originally Posted by dsraven

if it is a 63 it may be the later style block. you can tell because the bellhousing flange is part of the engine block and not a bolt on part. check the link to wiki for a description of the lineage.
for me, a newer style engine would be the no brainer. more stuff to choose from at the parts store.

I got a picture of it sent to me, it has a screw on oil filter. 194 or 230? I am going to pass on it and find a 235 but would be happy to pass it on to another member. It is in a 63 Biscayne.

[mick53]

I have one in Indiana about 150 miles from you. I'm stuck in Iowa until mid January. It's in my 54 3/4 ton. I don't know what year it is but probably not original. It was the PO work truck when I bought it a few years ago. I can't get home to get casting number. Was told it used to run. It's still in the truck. It's in the back yard. It's a complete engine. I don't need it and if you can wait and are willing to take it out you can have it no charge. I have a bobcat there. I might get home at Christmas and could get numbers. I also have a 4 bbl Clifford intake and Holley carb for a few bucks that came off my 53 that FROZE.

[bootman49]

Originally Posted by mick53

I have one in Indiana about 150 miles from you. I'm stuck in Iowa until mid January. It's in my 54 3/4 ton. I don't know what year it is but probably not original. It was the PO work truck when I bought it a few years ago. I can't get home to get casting number. Was told it used to run. It's still in the truck. It's in the back yard. It's a complete engine. I don't need it and if you can wait and are willing to take it out you can have it no charge. I have a bobcat there. I might get home at Christmas and could get numbers. I also have a 4 bbl Clifford intake and Holley carb for a few bucks that came off my 53 that FROZE.

Thank you, lets see how it goes until then.

[dsraven]

do you still have the original block from the truck that you could use? taking stuff apart doesn't cost anything except space. just make a few wooden strips to hold things like lifters etc and label the pistons, rod caps, main brg caps etc so they go back orientated the same. dunno if you are an engine guy but anything machined, like a bearing cap, needs to go back the same way it came apart so the bore remains round like it was made. main caps need to be marked their position and orientation. pistons need to be marked for forward facing and cylinder they came from. lifters need to go back on the same lobe of the camshaft. I usually just take a piece of 2x4 and drill some holes lifter sized, mark front and then drop the lifters in the holes as I take them out. tape over them so they won't fall out if the board gets tipped over etc. a box like a wine bottle box with the little cardboard bottle seperators is easy to make so the pistons and rods can be just dropped in and they won't get banged up. pushrods should also stay oriented with the lifter and tappet they came from. again, a piece of wood with pushrod sized holes works but be careful not to bend any inadvertently doing it this way. just pull the pushrods and stick them in the wood then you know the end in the wood is from the lifter end etc. when all done oven cleaner works good to initially clean the block, just don't get any on bearing surfaces or anything that is aluminum. a metal spagetti strainer works great to clean the bolts etc or a paint can with small holes punched in the bottom. spray the surfaces and parts with some wd40 after to keep the rust off until you can get everything checked for wear limits. a piece of 40-60 grit sandpaper stapled to a wood block works well to clean up any flat gasket surfaces. some heavy duty garbage bags work to keep the weather off the parts and a mattress bag works well for a block bag. wrap the journals on the crank with some rag and electrical tape then spray them with wd40 so they don't rust, same for the cam.
have fun, post pics.

[dsraven]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1956-Chevro...UAAOSw1IhcCdua

it's only about a 13 hr drive......

man,. I just looked on ebay quickly. I can't believe what these old engines go for, like almost $2k and they aren't, like, rebuilt or anything.

good luck man.

[bootman49]

Originally Posted by dsraven

do you still have the original block from the truck that you could use? taking stuff apart doesn't cost anything except space. just make a few wooden strips to hold things like lifters etc and label the pistons, rod caps, main brg caps etc so they go back orientated the same. dunno if you are an engine guy but anything machined, like a bearing cap, needs to go back the same way it came apart so the bore remains round like it was made. main caps need to be marked their position and orientation. pistons need to be marked for forward facing and cylinder they came from. lifters need to go back on the same lobe of the camshaft. I usually just take a piece of 2x4 and drill some holes lifter sized, mark front and then drop the lifters in the holes as I take them out. tape over them so they won't fall out if the board gets tipped over etc. a box like a wine bottle box with the little cardboard bottle seperators is easy to make so the pistons and rods can be just dropped in and they won't get banged up. pushrods should also stay oriented with the lifter and tappet they came from. again, a piece of wood with pushrod sized holes works but be careful not to bend any inadvertently doing it this way. just pull the pushrods and stick them in the wood then you know the end in the wood is from the lifter end etc. when all done oven cleaner works good to initially clean the block, just don't get any on bearing surfaces or anything that is aluminum. a metal spagetti strainer works great to clean the bolts etc or a paint can with small holes punched in the bottom. spray the surfaces and parts with some wd40 after to keep the rust off until you can get everything checked for wear limits. a piece of 40-60 grit sandpaper stapled to a wood block works well to clean up any flat gasket surfaces. some heavy duty garbage bags work to keep the weather off the parts and a mattress bag works well for a block bag. wrap the journals on the crank with some rag and electrical tape then spray them with wd40 so they don't rust, same for the cam.
have fun, post pics.

1949 block was gone before he bought the truck, so not a numbers matching motor that it came with. The block it came with is a 1952 ln need of rebuild. The thought was buy a "fresh rebuilt" high oil pressure 2nd gen or complete in need of rebuild. More power, better oiling quieter with hydro tappets. Just didn't work out. Still searching.

[bootman49]

Originally Posted by whitedog76

I totally agree with DSRAVEN. A little too close to the main oil galley for comfort.

235's pop up every once in a while. Usually it's somebody getting rid of a complete chassis. I would advise finding a running one to start out with. They are way too expensive to rebuild otherwise. I've had 3 235's over the years that came through my garage. All of them had issues, so I'm now doing a late model swap.

Anyhow, I would keep your Impala head. The car heads had slighlty better compression than the trucks. Also, keep all your brackets, etc... Keep all your rocker arm parts straight, there was a few variations.

Good information, thanks. Any recommendations of a good manual for rebuilding the 3rd gen 235? Might as well get one on order now.

[whitedog76]

I don't know about a manual you can buy, but here's a link to a 1960 service manual. Get your printer loaded with paper.

https://www.canadianmilitarypattern....e%20Manual.htm

Over at the Stovebolt, here's a rebuild guide for the 261, most information should cross over.

https://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/e...ild/index.html