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Old 06-23-2018, 02:30 AM   #1
Matt_50
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I changed my mind...

Ok ok, I bet some of you are just itching to say, "I told you so!". But I've decided to keep my front stock suspension and forget about the c10 suspension.

It bolts right in, very very easy. A year ago "very easy" was good for me and my limited skills, and I honestly liked the look. Granted I had just sold my Bronco, maybe I still wanted a beefier look. Then I slowly started thinking I would prefer for the wheels to suck in right and sit at the right height... I decided if I was going to spend money on the front suspension, I'd do it on the correct suspension. It can be done with a c10 ifs, but the time and money needed... may as well upgrade the stock or buy a kit.

I've been thinking this through for a while. I'm going stock, with some upgrades. One of those ifs kits are great and all, and I know it'll cost a lot to mess with stock, but it's what I want. I've finally gotten to see some with stock suspensions and I just like it. No highways... no street races..
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Old 06-23-2018, 02:36 AM   #2
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Re: I changed my mind...

So... I'm thinking of getting the CPP power steering kit. I've got the needed pump and c10 gearbox already, and this small comfort would be nice.

I'm also looking at the summit disc conversion kit. There are kits that include a MC and booster but, again I've got the c10 stuff. I can use them right? I've searched this a lot and it looks like people have cobbled together lots of different things. If I use my c10 stuff... is there any reason this would be a bad MC and booster to use? I've read that sometimes pressure needs to be adjusted on different setups, that can be done with my proportioning valve right?
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Old 06-23-2018, 02:56 AM   #3
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Re: I changed my mind...

I am personally applauding your decision to keep the suspension stock. There is a certain charm to old trucks, and that "back in time" experience is lost when one modernizes a vehicle.
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Old 06-23-2018, 03:04 AM   #4
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Re: I changed my mind...

"so you told I"....there I said it ...sorta...if your upgrading to disc front brakes and keeping drum rears youll want a master and prop valve that are for a disc/drum setup....if that's what you got it should be no problem...if you've got a stock prop valve I don't think theres any bias adjustment on those....if your puting your master/booster under truck I don't know if c10 stuff will fit...maybe someone else knows
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Old 06-23-2018, 09:41 AM   #5
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Re: I changed my mind...

Quote:
I've been thinking this through for a while. I'm going stock, with some upgrades. One of those ifs kits are great and all, and I know it'll cost a lot to mess with stock, but it's what I want. I've finally gotten to see some with stock suspensions and I just like it. No highways... no street races..
I have owned two TF trucks with solid axles and I've worked on and driven plenty of other vehicles without IFS. Some designs work better and are easier to drive. The TF trucks imo require some work. But the amount of work is not as much as what many folks elect to do when they choose frame swaps or front clip replacements. And many of the modifications can be hidden or kept subtle enough so they don't take away from the old truck appearance. Some changes I would make (and am hoping for time to accomplish on my own truck):

1) Sway bar. I have one on my truck and it made a world of difference.
2) Larger diameter tie rod. I have one of these as well.
3) Improved steering arms. These are the arms that connect to the drag link and tie rod. Of the three connection points, the most improvements will come from the drag link connection.
4) High density plastic sliders or buttons between the spring leaves. I have tried this in a Toyota truck and the difference in ride was worth the effort.

None of these changes are inherently expensive and all of them will make improvements.

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Old 06-23-2018, 11:16 AM   #6
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Re: I changed my mind...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiraclePieCo View Post
I am personally applauding your decision to keep the suspension stock. There is a certain charm to old trucks, and that "back in time" experience is lost when one modernizes a vehicle.
Yep, I have been talking about this here for a long time and I get lambasted for suggesting that people think about it! No kidding, I have been told I don't know anything and I am an old fuddy duddy and I don't know how to do it so I shouldn't be telling people not to just because I "can't" (while I building a radical chopped and sectioned truck that I had a mid engine in one time .)

All I say, ALL I SAY is "what are your expectations of the truck?" That's all, it's that simple, "What are your expectations of the truck?"

MANY of these trucks being built by guys who visit this forum will be weekend cruisers, IF that, there is no reason to make the thing drive and work like a 2018 Silverado! And for that matter, if you are driving on city streets like I do 99% of the time every single day, there is NO reason for anything, no discs no nothing, just drive it with a smile on your face as I drive my 59 Rambler and will be driving my truck when it's done. Now I will be putting an IRS in my truck, a 49 Chevy IRS with the stock brakes! And I am ONLY putting it there because of the "theme" of the truck, a "Cameo" a "Corvette" truck, that is the only reason! And I may just change my mind on that before I get there and go with a dropped axle if one should come my way.

And it kills me when someone thinks that I am saying they are wrong for putting an IRS or something, NO, I have made it clear as clear can be. IF IT'S RIGHT FOR YOU, IT'S RIGHT FOR YOU! I make no judgement. That isn't to say that I believe these mods are being WAY overdone because people follow the others who DO need it. But some of us DO need these mods, others do not. Just build the damn truck to your needs!

I am not a hater of modifying these trucks, I am building a damn chopped and sectioned one! It's NOT stock, I dig the stock trucks, but I think there are enough on the road to do what you want. Now if you do some big mod on a 57 Corvette FI car, that is going to get a bit of screaming out of me. LOL

Matt, you are doing what works for YOU, don't think a thing of it.

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Old 06-23-2018, 02:12 PM   #7
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Re: I changed my mind...

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Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
That isn't to say that I believe these mods are being WAY overdone because people follow the others who DO need it. But some of us DO need these mods, others do not. Just build the damn truck to your needs!
This is my observation too. How many are being "made safer" because they think the originals weren't "safe". I think most of these "make it safer" mods are only an excuse to F with it to appear to others you are keeping up with the "times".

Any idiot can take something apart, but it takes pure genius to put it back together... especially true when considering "mods".
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Old 06-23-2018, 03:03 PM   #8
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Re: I changed my mind...

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Originally Posted by Foot Stomper View Post
This is my observation too. How many are being "made safer" because they think the originals weren't "safe". I think most of these "make it safer" mods are only an excuse to F with it to appear to others you are keeping up with the "times".

Any idiot can take something apart, but it takes pure genius to put it back together... especially true when considering "mods".
Nothing makes me think of this more than when I look at the cars and trucks every day at the shop with disc brakes and the front is all smashed because they rear ended someone.

I had a 2018 Jeep park 15 feet from my desk yesterday and it's the first thing I thought of. The front was HAMMERED, a LOT of damage, you can see the disc brakes through the wheel, that one brake it is 10 times as big as all four brakes on my Rambler, at VERY least 10 times as big, yet they didn't push that black rubber thing under the steering column soon enough to make them do their job.

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Old 06-23-2018, 03:26 PM   #9
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Re: I changed my mind...

What do you guys think? I'm thinking I need disc because from what I've searched on different sites, it seemed that with a v8 disc was recommended.

I'm not a hotrod, and my v8 is just plain ole 350 nothing fancy. Now, everyone around me drives nuts, and they all like to stop and go fast... I'm hoping maybe disc can help me stop faster.

As far as my MC, I've got it bolted to firewall, and using the brake pedal bracket under dash from c10.

1project2many mentioned a couple other things I plan to do too. Figured I'd wait on sway bar until after I see how it drives.

I think I did get sucked into thinking I needed an IFS, I mean EVERYONE is installing them. After talking to some older guys and actually seeing some trucks with stock suspensions.. I think I've relaxed on thinking I need an IFS. It might ride bumpy and well... ride like a truck lol, but that should be fine for me. To and from work.. and we drive our new car for trips, errands, and everything else.
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Old 06-23-2018, 04:04 PM   #10
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Re: I changed my mind...

I need bolt pattern advice. The rear end is from my 84 c10. It's a 5x5 right?

The disc kit I saw is a 5x4.75... they don't mix do they?
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Old 06-23-2018, 04:17 PM   #11
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Re: I changed my mind...

And I have wheels like this... it's got extra holes.. I'm guessing different pattern?

Can I use them or do I need special backspacing?
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Old 06-23-2018, 04:54 PM   #12
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Re: I changed my mind...

A lot of what guys think they need brake and suspension wise depends on:

1. What they grew up driving or drive. We have members who may have never driven a 4 wheel drum brake car or truck and a few younger ones who may have never driven a disk/drum rig being that 4 wheel disks have been rather common since the late 90's. My 98 BMW 528I daily is a 30 year old car so it is OLD by a lot of folks standards and older than some members.

2. Driving habits, When you drive an I beam axle rig with 4 wheel drum brakes your driving habits have to change in that you have to be aware of the added stopping distance and pay more attention to the actual control of the rig than in say a 2010 Impala. You have to be watching what goes on several vehicles ahead of you and around you, you usually always have and exit plan, for me that is usually staying in the right hand lane so i have the shoulder to pull over on if I have to or even the bar ditch if there is one wide enough and flat enough. Not so good around here for that but In Texas a guy can usually take evasive action beyond the shoulder of the road to avoid something.
3. I beam and leaf springs riding too rough for tender butts? , These trucks don't ride any rougher than Jeep Cherokees that are a few years old if the springs are prepared and cleaned up right and they have the right shocks. that seems to be a big complaint, in that OH it rides too rough.

4. Hard steering, your power steering swap should take care of that but properly set up stock steering isn't that bad.

5. No matter who we are we usually have to stay within our skill level or within our budget level or a bit of both. not many of us have pockets so deep that we can run out and have things done or just go on line and buy a "kit" without putting a lot of thought into how it affects the budget and if we have to save the money or pay the plastic to do it.

If you feel you need disk brakes to feel safe go with disk brakes and it is really none of the rest of our business as long as you install them correctly. If you want power steering go with power steering as it may make driving the truck more enjoyable or your significant other may enjoying driving it or even share the driving chores on road trips.

That all said I am going independent on my 48 simply because I have several seriously long road trips planned and at 71 have already done my miles with the I beam and drum brakes. I'm not going wild as I am buying the Industtrial Chassis bolt in AD crossmember that takes Dakota pieces and bought a Dakota donor for 200, sold 40 bucks worth of parts, pulled the front suspension and steering and sold the hulk to the wrecking yard for 100. I'll have right at 900 in the whole front end after buying new ball joints bushings and tie rod ends. I'm doing the brake swap to bigger brakes that Steve recommends and already have the rotors stashed away that i kept off a Dodge Van I scrapped several years ago. 12 inch rotors on the front should stop. 9 inch Ford rear with F150 drums on the back. That isn't a suggestion it is just what my plans are.


As far as changes of plans I have three sheds full of changed plans parts that will need a home someday if I ever get around to sorting through them all and putting the "belong to this project" parts on the designated shelves in the shop for those projects so I can clean out the rest. I think I have enough changed my mind parts for the 48 to build three trucks without a lot of running around looking for more parts.
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Old 06-23-2018, 06:36 PM   #13
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Re: I changed my mind...

The C10 rear should be 5 on 5.

The sway bar makes a very noticeable improvement right away.

Some other observations to consider:

Steel to steel spring packs have inherent friction that resists flexing. It makes bumps feel more "bangy" when the leaves ride directly on each other.

Shocks seem to be a huge part of the ride. I have had more trouble making gas filled shocks feel right on leaf springs than I ever had with hydraulic shocks.

As much as I like GM products, some of the components on the TF trucks are merely good enough and could stand improvements.

Regarding brakes... Setting up the brake balance for the weight of the truck is very important if you ever have to stop in a hurry. If the rear wheels lock up the back of the truck can swing around and steer the front. The original brakes were designed with too much rear braking when empty.

It used to be easier to change the drum brake setup to make it behave like you wanted. Once upon a time you could find different friction compounds or even custom linings. Good luck with that today. IMO if you switch to disc brakes you will have an easier time adjusting the brake balance. A proportioning valve is a tool to slow the application of rear brakes ensuring the front have time to apply before the rear. It is only one tool needed when determining brake balance. The rest of the excercise is to figure out the percentage of vehicle weight on each axle then estimate braking force applied to the wheel based on rotor/drum size, caliper/wheel cylinder diameter, and master cylinder piston diameter. Most folks don't bother doing this, instead installing parts based on someone else's build or based on what's available as a conversion kit. It takes some time and work to figure it out correctly but there are aftermarket companies that are willing to help.

I am planning to install power brakes equivalent to the OE power brake system using a Hydrovac. I am also working on details to install an original style power steering system using a drag link mounted control valve and assist piston. I don't believe either of these changes are needed due to problems with the truck. My knees hurt after a day of driving the old truck and my elbow is starting to hurt on long drives in a newer vehicle.

Last edited by 1project2many; 06-23-2018 at 10:12 PM.
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Old 06-23-2018, 07:39 PM   #14
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Re: I changed my mind...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr48chev View Post
My 98 BMW 528I daily is a 30 year old car

is it now?
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Old 06-23-2018, 07:52 PM   #15
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Re: I changed my mind...

It can be easy to want one thing, putting it into action is another. I think your making a good choice. The old suspension is fun, I can’t wait till my power steering and brakes are working. Super excited for the outcome. Maybe IFS can come another time or for another project.
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Old 06-23-2018, 08:13 PM   #16
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Re: I changed my mind...

My rear axle is 5x5... 84 c10 axle...right?

I can't seem to find a kit that's 5x5 for the front. Looks like alk I see is 5x4.75
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Old 06-23-2018, 09:20 PM   #17
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Re: I changed my mind...

Well I took the wheel off to see what I have.


I googled how to measure bolt pattern and what I got was..

5x5 and 5x5.5 on these wheels.
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Old 06-23-2018, 10:08 PM   #18
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Re: I changed my mind...

if sticking with the 6 lug front and a brake conversion to disc (thats what I would do, swap to disc, because there is less chance of brake pull in an emerg stop) you may be able to find some 6 lug axles from another chevy product that would be a direct swap and fit your current rear axle. try calling an axle shop, they may have the specs and what axle from what unit at the wrecker will fit into your diff. if you plan on swapping to front disc and doing a hub conversion to a different pattern, like 5 on 5, then disregard the previous, haha.
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Old 06-23-2018, 10:12 PM   #19
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Re: I changed my mind...

Well... the first idea was front disc conversion to 5 lug to match my rear axle.

But I'm learning that the rear is 5x5 and the front kits are 5x4.75.

Not sure what to do here.
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Old 06-23-2018, 10:39 PM   #20
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Re: I changed my mind...

if you want you can redrill the stock rear axle to accept a different 5 lug pattern. just make a template and drill the new lugs between the old lugs on the flange. draw it out on poster board or have a machinist fab you a pattern in steel with 1/8" holes drilled where the new studs will fit, and original 5 on 5 stud sized holes to fit the old pattern drilled in.also include a center hole that will be hub centric (the hole on the middle fits snug on the axle). this way you can bolt the pattern onto the axle like a wheel, then drill the 1/8 holes in the axle flange to act as a guide for the proper sized drill. then remove the pattern and drill the new holes in the axle using the 1/8 holes as the center point. just ensure you use a drill that is slightly smaller than the new stud so it is a press fit. the stock drums will also need the same treatment.
this is what I did on a ford 8.8 rear axle that I installed in a 57 that has the 5 x 4.75 front pattern. find a wheel stud that will be the same as the front (hopefully) so the same stud is used across the whole unit, then the replacement parts are at least all the same and the lug nuts are also the same.
just a thought.
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Old 06-23-2018, 11:13 PM   #21
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Re: I changed my mind...

Ok.. that doesn't sound to hard.

Bolt on template..held on by original studs... pilot holes for me to mark new stud holes.

If the drum needs same treatment... I can pit this template on and drill my pilot through both the drum and the axle flange at same time right?

So... I can take my drum to a machine shop to get a template? Or can I buy one somewhere? I can drill the holes, but I want to make sure I get holes perfect, even a tad off will give me issues right?
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Old 06-24-2018, 03:41 AM   #22
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Re: I changed my mind...

I would just let the machine shop do the drilling....itd probably be cheaper than making a template or close to the same cost....and itd be accurate
ive redrilled a bunch of rotors back in my racing dayz
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Old 06-24-2018, 01:19 PM   #23
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Re: I changed my mind...

Yea... I should at the very least call and get some prices.

Will the axle seals require replacement?
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Old 06-24-2018, 01:32 PM   #24
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Re: I changed my mind...

Seals...That's one of those things that while your that close, why not...your gonna have to pull the axles anyway...
But they don't have to be changed
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Old 06-24-2018, 01:47 PM   #25
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Re: I changed my mind...

If you can find a front kit that uses rotors from an Impala or Caprice you may get the larger 5X5 pattern.

Last edited by 1project2many; 06-24-2018 at 09:22 PM.
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