Has Anybody Used hotrodplans.com ??

[MiraclePieCo]

Interesting debate. I know a professional builder who specializes in AD trucks - does one after another after another. He will build them either way the customer wants: MII on stock frame or S10 conversion. He says that with all the fabrication and sheet metal alignment considerations with the S10, the stock frame is far easier and quicker.

And speaking of alignment considerations: the majority of S10 conversions I see have the front wheels too far back in the wheel wells - evidently failing to account for caster changes as the suspension is loaded. I shopped long and hard for my '50 and rejected MANY nice trucks due to un-centered front wheels.

[_Ogre]

the op never gives us an idea of his fabrication and welding experience
shop space? tools? welder?

[mr48chev]

The wags that always dismiss the MII subframes never studied the actual MII pieces if you use stock pieces with a crossmember.

Upper ball joints are the same as Mark IV and some other big Fords. Wheel bearings are the same as a number of larger Ford products including the Grenadas that can be donors for front rotors.
Aftermarket it comes down to who built it. Some great, some good and some suspect.

The original idea of the S-10 swap was that it was a cheap swap to get a complete rolling chassis when you drug a dead S-10 out of someone's back yard for anything from free for hauling it off to a couple hundred bucks. Now guys on here buy running driving S-10's off the lot or off Craigslist for a thousand or more $$ to do the swap and the "cheap" factor goes out the window when you figure you are buying a chassis with usually more miles on it than the one you are replacing and it will need a complete rebuild. You seldom see an older S-10 in this area with less than 150 to 2 or more K on it and they are pretty well worn out.

The other thing to look at is resale value if you are building a nice truck and figure to resell it in a couple of years. Traditionally prospective buyers see S-10 swap trucks as "cheap trucks" and no matter what you spend on the they seldom sell for over 20 K no matter how nice they are. Selling a "Patina" truck that you have 3 or 4 K in for 12 K is a big profit but selling a finished truck with a high quality paint job, full custom interior and all the bells and whistles for not much more rather kills the thousand or two you thought you saved by using an S-10 frame. You never see the guys at Barrett Jackson rave that a truck rolling across the stage has one of those great S-10 frames under it.

Still as I said in another post there is a place for he swap and that is if you don't have a usable stock frame, can't or don't want to swing for custom frame and primarily want a driver quality truck that is easy to take care of. A lot of us have enough left overs from our builds that we could probably stick one together on an S-10 frame without hunting down many more pieces in the process. That works.

[mr48chev]

Back to the original question I just ordered a set of the plans to study. I probably won't build my own crossmember but I have a "universal" Ebay crossmember that will end up on something some day and complete stock MII crossmember thatI cut out of a car 25 years ago plus the front suspension pieces from another MII style front end hanging on the wall in the shed.

[MiraclePieCo]

Originally Posted by mr48chev

The wags that always dismiss the MII subframes never studied the actual MII pieces if you use stock pieces with a crossmember.

Upper ball joints are the same as Mark IV and some other big Fords. Wheel bearings are the same as a number of larger Ford products including the Grenadas that can be donors for front rotors.
Aftermarket it comes down to who built it. Some great, some good and some suspect.

The original idea of the S-10 swap was that it was a cheap swap to get a complete rolling chassis when you drug a dead S-10 out of someone's back yard for anything from free for hauling it off to a couple hundred bucks. Now guys on here buy running driving S-10's off the lot or off Craigslist for a thousand or more $$ to do the swap and the "cheap" factor goes out the window when you figure you are buying a chassis with usually more miles on it than the one you are replacing and it will need a complete rebuild. You seldom see an older S-10 in this area with less than 150 to 2 or more K on it and they are pretty well worn out.

The other thing to look at is resale value if you are building a nice truck and figure to resell it in a couple of years. Traditionally prospective buyers see S-10 swap trucks as "cheap trucks" and no matter what you spend on the they seldom sell for over 20 K no matter how nice they are. Selling a "Patina" truck that you have 3 or 4 K in for 12 K is a big profit but selling a finished truck with a high quality paint job, full custom interior and all the bells and whistles for not much more rather kills the thousand or two you thought you saved by using an S-10 frame. You never see the guys at Barrett Jackson rave that a truck rolling across the stage has one of those great S-10 frames under it.

Still as I said in another post there is a place for he swap and that is if you don't have a usable stock frame, can't or don't want to swing for custom frame and primarily want a driver quality truck that is easy to take care of. A lot of us have enough left overs from our builds that we could probably stick one together on an S-10 frame without hunting down many more pieces in the process. That works.

Many good points, but among a certain demographic - namely the mini-truck crowd who are branching out into other areas of hot rodding (you know, the guys who refer to channeling as a "body drop") - you'll never convince them that S10's aren't the ultimate build platform. To quote one major lowrider magazine, "There are S10's and then there's everything else." Young guys love S10's because there is so much lowering and bagging equipment available.

[OrrieG]

Originally Posted by MiraclePieCo

Many good points, but among a certain demographic - namely the mini-truck crowd who are branching out into other areas of hot rodding (you know, the guys who refer to channeling as a "body drop") - you'll never convince them that S10's aren't the ultimate build platform. To quote one major lowrider magazine, "There are S10's and then there's everything else." Young guys love S10's because there is so much lowering and bagging equipment available.

Same reason the small block chevy became the engine most used, early on aftermarket guys made lots of stuff for it and has continued to this day. When I go to shows I look for the non-chevy applications, couple of weeks ago saw a rod with a LaSalle ( I think) V-12, had to stretch the front frame and hood a bit to get it to work. Always liked the old straight 8's too.

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by slimneverdies

I keep hearing people say that the mustang II is puny

mustang II has been used on 2 ton hotrods and other swaps for decades, I think there are probably more aftermarket mustang II suspensions made than there were mustang II.
the only problem with a mustang II is using it with airbags, the spindle height is very short and with unequal length control arms (like it has) a short spindle will have a very small "sweet spot" for alignment, there will be a lot of camber change throughout the lift range. really the only limitation though.


I will say for all the guys who dig this thread up from the grave every couple weeks, you need to be aware of the difference between people speaking from experience and those who are speaking from their best intentions. its pretty easy to say "I wouldnt have done it that way" if you havent ever done anything. in fact its easier to say you could do better than it is to pick up a wrench and have your best effort judged.

Originally Posted by _Ogre

the op never gives us an idea of his fabrication and welding experience
shop space? tools? welder?

I asked this in the beginning and he answered it somewhat. I think he chose a MII on the stock frame and ended up finding his frame bent horribly on disassembly.

[MiraclePieCo]

Originally Posted by mr48chev

The original idea of the S-10 swap was that it was a cheap swap to get a complete rolling chassis when you drug a dead S-10 out of someone's back yard for anything from free for hauling it off to a couple hundred bucks. Now guys on here buy running driving S-10's off the lot or off Craigslist for a thousand or more $$ to do the swap and the "cheap" factor goes out the window...

Right again. Here is a photo of a friend's latest donor S10 - it's much nicer than my new car, lol!

[mr48chev]

Trucks like that still bring serious money around here as there is a huge market for small used trucks in this area.

[tmoble]

I just bought a 96 S-10 pickup for 1500. Has 82,000 miles on it, verified. I'm planning to haul stuff around in it for many years to come. It's a king cab, longer wheelbase. When I get done beating it to death I'll sell it to some rodder. Maybe I'll make money on it.

[SPIFFAV8]

Originally Posted by MiraclePieCo

Young guys love S10's because there is so much lowering and bagging equipment available.

I'm new here and new to the 3100 build. This has been an interesting thread to read and there are some good points for sure. In researching how to accomplish my goals it came down to one of two options. Call Scott over at Art Morrison and order up the "Farm Truck" package or find a cheap S10. As much as I would love to have another AME framed vehicle, I just won't use the truck like I will my Camro. So the S10 is the way to go. As the above said, there is a ton of aftermarket suspension parts out there for the S10 and it's affordable. I picked up an S10 last week for $300. It doesn't run, but I'm not after the motor. I've started parti it out and have already had a $320 return and there are plenty of parts remaining. Builds are all about balance IMO. My goal is just to have an affordable and fun truck to drive and goof off in.

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by SPIFFAV8

My goal is just to have an affordable and fun truck to drive and goof off in.

yep, thats the goal. some guys want barrett jackson, some guys just want to go to the store in an old looking cruiser.

and I buy complete donors too, there hasnt been one time yet that I havent come out ahead parting out what I didnt need, even when keeping the bed for a bed floor. trying to find a frame that is picked clean then trying to put it all back together, forget it, that is no fun on a bun. my last donor had a bent frame so I had to buy another longbed s10 and swap everything over.

[MiraclePieCo]

Originally Posted by joedoh

I buy complete donors too, there hasnt been one time yet that I havent come out ahead parting out what I didnt need, even when keeping the bed for a bed floor.

The trouble I have with that scenario is that you have a big project BEFORE your big project. The time and effort of buying, disassembling and parting out a complete S10 just detracts from completing your own project. Not to mention all the extra space required for two disassembled vehicles, the S10 and the AD. My guess is that a competent builder could have a MII and 10-bolt rear installed faster than you could even part out your donor car.

Although it may sound as if I'm arguing against the S10 swap, that's not necessarily true. I have an S10 frame underneath my '50 because I want it to be a daily driver and it's very convenient to have parts-store availability of virtually every component under the vehicle. Auction value at Barrett Jackson? Not likely!

[Iceburgh]

With out reading through the entire thread I will say this.
I have done MII , S10 and Camaro clips.
All are dependent on your skill set ( need to be honest with yourself) your wallet and what you want for a end result.
My preference is a clip. Few draw backs, they are getting harder to find and if you want the truck down you need to shorten the control arms by1". They can be bought like this but not cheap. Once you get the clip on square the parts are easy to find and cheap for anything to rebuild now or later from AA or Auto zone or who ever

MII , not as much fab work as the Camaro clip but salty price. You can get bolt of or weld on and they are pretty easy to do with parts being plentiful as well. Downfall....IMO to narrow for these trucks and you will feel the difference when laying into a corner

S10...great for mounting the body. ***** for everything else. There is no such thing as just bolt it on. After it is done you wont have the handling characteristics you have with the other two setups.

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by MiraclePieCo

The trouble I have with that scenario is that you have a big project BEFORE your big project. The time and effort of buying, disassembling and parting out a complete S10 just detracts from completing your own project. Not to mention all the extra space required for two disassembled vehicles, the S10 and the AD.

to be honest, I mentioned all of this in my first post in this thread, so I am surprised by your revelation this far in. Parting an S10 donor takes about a day, including rolling the scrap into a truck and hauling it off. you can then use the chassis to store your AD cab and bed. the non monetary payback starts immediately if you are using the s10 drivetrain and systems, because the brakes are still sealed, the engine is still connected to the trans, the wiring is complete, and you know it ran. this is also what I said in the beginning, trying to get a hundred new parts to work together is a pretty herculean task. if someone says that using a MII is easier because the body is already mounted and then installs new brakes, new rear axle, new engine and trans, new fuel system, new wiring harness... well, if you consider that easier than more power to you. mounting the body works out to be probably the least amount of trouble in the whole project.

its the same for the guys trying to decide what to do with their trucks. they havent tried it either and are looking for a depth check on what they are in for. They read everyones freely given information, experience and opinions alike. again, this was also mentioned it in my first post, time will bend around the mass of this project, whichever way you choose to do it. Most people misinterpret that fact, they get swept up in project planning and think everything will move like click click click. well, planning is useful till the first shot is fired. after that, any project will fail if you dont have the ability to finish it.

I know you arent speaking out of disklike for the s10 swap, and I actually have no predisposition. If you want a mustang II, put one in. my bristle goes up when people say "heres what I like" but phrase it as "this is what you should do". some people like knocking it by being derogatory, such as: 'it makes sense if you like being cheap' or 'taking the cheap route'. nothing is cheaper than inaction though.

to the guys reading months and years from now, figure out what you want at the end, dip a toe, and get some work done. cut metal one day, spread all those parts out in the driveway (and yard, and laundry room, and and and) and let wifely and neighborly input be a motivator. you will find out the only thing you are afraid of is screwing up, and even that isnt so bad. at the end you will have a truck you built, MII, clip, s10 frame, whatever. how cool is that?

[MiraclePieCo]

Wow, parting out an S10 in a day - I couldn't do that if I used a chainsaw and 10 lbs of C-4! Including the requisite buying of the donor, hauling it home, disassembly, disposal, etc, I am skeptical. But if you say you can do it in a day, then I believe you'd also be capable of installing a complete Mustang II in about 45 minutes

.

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by MiraclePieCo

Wow, parting out an S10 in a day - I couldn't do that if I used a chainsaw and 10 lbs of C-4! Including the requisite buying of the donor, hauling it home, disassembly, disposal, etc, I am skeptical. But if you say you can do it in a day, then I believe you'd also be capable of installing a complete Mustang II in about 45 minutes

its totally possible. ask your buddy with the shop, I remember you saying you havent tried it yourself but he will tell you, more than possible. I bet that is his morning activity, with the number that he has done.

as for reinstalling, it always takes longer than you think or even want. I wont guess how long it takes for me to install a MII, and I sure wouldnt say it would only take 45 minutes. disassembly is always the fastest part. many days I have come home to a pile of trim or drywall with my wife clapping the dust off her gloves saying "ok now its your turn!"