L29 454 Build for '63 K15 with NV4500

['63GENIII]

[QUOTE=snj8



I'm not going to run aluminum heads on a daily driver/work truck again either. My current set is the last time.[/QUOTE]

Why so Steve?

[snj8198]

Don't tell no one but I've stripped so many threads it's embarrassing. I guess I wrench too hard.

If I do another big block gas work motor I'll build a stroker tall deck with iron oval port heads, 8.5cr, and short duration roller cam.

['63GENIII]

Originally Posted by storm9c1

+1. Dynamic compression takes into account the cam profile (more specifically the intake valve timing).

Some light reading on the subject:
http://www.empirenet.com/pkelley2/DynamicCR.html

For something that's a daily driver or mildly used for towing, I'd use iron heads and compute your compression in the 8.5-9.0 range. Don't go crazy with compression if you are towing otherwise it will be more difficult to tune (ie: you may have to sacrifice timing). Don't forget you want a good torque band, and if it comes in low, that means you can cruise with it at lower RPMs even with a heavy load. You could probably use aluminum heads on a tow vehicle, but I personally wouldn't.

At the advice of the Captain and yourself I did a little reading on dynamic compression. I think my little brain almost exploded. I do get the basics of it though. Ill be trying to keep my static around 8.5 which I think it may have been close to stock.

Just for learning sake though, you and Steve have advised against aluminum heads for a towing engine or DD. Id like to know why. Iron heads are far more budget friendly to me so I like the advice but my curiosity is killing me.

Lastly, Steve I noticed that you're running a Straub cam in your stroker. How do you like it? All that Ive heard is good things about his custom cams. How is it working for you?

['63GENIII]

So I spoke with Gary Clark (the machinist) about the condition of the short block yesterday. He said that everything looks great and will be serviceable again with a cylinder hone and a polish on the crank. A standard size ring and bearing kit will get it back on the road again. This is great news for the budget.
At this point, I think the plan moves forward with the stock Vortec heads getting the sharp edges in the chambers radiused a little bit and a good valve job. I mentioned that I was contemplating a Straub cam kit and Gary agreed that Chris grinds some of the best profiles in the industry. He said he'll set up the heads to work with whatever Chris sends.

Needless to say Im pretty stoked so far.

I did just read tonight that the Vortec has a plastic distributor which can fail pretty easily. I was absolutely sure that I had pulled a cast aluminum one out during the breakdown of the engine. WELL... just went out to the garage and shut the front door....I got a plastic housing distributor. Big frown! Any Ideas what to replace this thing with? Ive seen a couple of A1 Cardone aluminum ones for 150$ and then there is the MSD Billet (USA made) for around 230$. Opinions from any distributor gurus? Im really leaning toward the MSD since I think it may be the best quality for the money?

[68post]

How about a OEM hei ? You can fit the better aftermarket parts into it and curve it too.
I have an L29 on the stand but no need yet to tear it down, they do have 99cc heads and 9-1 comp stock.

If the intake is poor flowing and the exhaust flows well, that may mean that a single pattern cam works best, especially for low-end and mid-range power & mileage. Interested in what Mr Straub will spec !

[Captainfab]

On other forums I have read that the cheap made in China cast aluminum Vortec distributors found on ebay work just fine, but I have no personal experience. A number of years ago I purchased a made in USA billet aluminum Vortec distributor on ebay. It was of very nice quality. That seller does not list them any longer, but you might contact them and see if they happen to have any.

Here are all of their listings on ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/betperforman...p2047675.l2562

['63GENIII]

Originally Posted by 68post

How about a OEM hei ? You can fit the better aftermarket parts into it and curve it too.
I have an L29 on the stand but no need yet to tear it down, they do have 99cc heads and 9-1 comp stock.

If the intake is poor flowing and the exhaust flows well, that may mean that a single pattern cam works best, especially for low-end and mid-range power & mileage. Interested in what Mr Straub will spec !

Im not sure about running an HEI. I think that the computer has to run the timing changes on the distributor. I wouldn't have the faintest idea how to convert it. On the cam.. It was really encouraging to hear Gary get as fired up as he did when I told him that I was looking at Straub cams. He couldn't say enough good things about the cams and even had a couple of stories about Chris. I think Im making the right choice there. Hoping that the 454 will mop up where the 396 couldn't. Just a couple of more side jobs should pay for it. Almost there!

[QUOTE=Captainfab;7560002]On other forums I have read that the cheap made in China cast aluminum Vortec distributors found on ebay work just fine, but I have no personal experience. A number of years ago I purchased a made in USA billet aluminum Vortec distributor on ebay. It was of very nice quality. That seller does not list them any longer, but you might contact them and see if they happen to have any.

Thanks for the link Captain. I think Im going to run the MSD. I was really happy with the one in the 396 so I think I bite the bullet and stick with what I know. Country of origin is listed as USA. Thats worth an extra 70$ to me. Still can't believe the original was plastic?

['63GENIII]

I have to admit, Im kind of a pack rat when it comes to collecting part. For the last couple of weeks, I had though Id lost a pretty critical part to for this engine. Afraid that I had sold it and forgotten about it, I was afraid to come clean even on the forum about it. Well, I found it tonight. Ive looked at this box for the last 6 years without giving it a second thought. If I was a squirrel, Id starve in the Winter.

['63GENIII]

And inside the box... The Howell harness and black box that I got years ago. programed without VATS, EGR and 2nd o2 sensor. Set up for 35" tires and 4L80E which Im going to have to figure out. Whew! Was really sweating that I couldn't find it. Also found the original black box and harness that came with the engine. It was under the house.

[68post]

That's great that you'll keep the timing control within your pcm, much more efficient. The L29 should be a very good runner over it's little 396 cousin.

I'm anxious to see it on the road when finished.

[akdg87]

Originally Posted by '63GENIII

So I spoke with Gary Clark (the machinist) about the condition of the short block yesterday. He said that everything looks great and will be serviceable again with a cylinder hone and a polish on the crank. A standard size ring and bearing kit will get it back on the road again. This is great news for the budget.
At this point, I think the plan moves forward with the stock Vortec heads getting the sharp edges in the chambers radiused a little bit and a good valve job. I mentioned that I was contemplating a Straub cam kit and Gary agreed that Chris grinds some of the best profiles in the industry. He said he'll set up the heads to work with whatever Chris sends.

Needless to say Im pretty stoked so far.

I did just read tonight that the Vortec has a plastic distributor which can fail pretty easily. I was absolutely sure that I had pulled a cast aluminum one out during the breakdown of the engine. WELL... just went out to the garage and shut the front door....I got a plastic housing distributor. Big frown! Any Ideas what to replace this thing with? Ive seen a couple of A1 Cardone aluminum ones for 150$ and then there is the MSD Billet (USA made) for around 230$. Opinions from any distributor gurus? Im really leaning toward the MSD since I think it may be the best quality for the money?

the ebay billet distributors are great. i think i paid 40 bucks for mine (i have a L29 as well). The GMT-400 guys swear by them.

['63GENIII]

Originally Posted by akdg87

the ebay billet distributors are great. i think i paid 40 bucks for mine (i have a L29 as well). The GMT-400 guys swear by them.

Interesting. Thanks for the info.

[Captainfab]

Even if the made in China distributors say they are billet, they are not. They are just cast aluminum.

The one I bought was definitely machined in the USA out of a single piece of aluminum.....and it was much more than $40-50.00.

Originally Posted by akdg87

the ebay billet distributors are great. i think i paid 40 bucks for mine (i have a L29 as well). The GMT-400 guys swear by them.

['63GENIII]

I went back and looked at the MSD unit and I was mistaken. It is also cast aluminum and Im ok with that. As long as it's not plastic. I must have been thinking of the MSD Billet HEI thats on the 396 right now.

I do have another question, not distributor related though. Has anyone (engine builders?) ever heard of "Engine Pro" rod and main bearings? Good, bad or indifferent? I didn't specify any particular brand and this is what came with the short block package. When I was still assembling a lot of engines before having a family (17 years now) the names that I remember were Vandervell, Clevite and Federal. Any thoughts on these bearings?

[snj8198]

Hi Chris, Sorry I'm just getting back to you.

The Straub Cam: I got exactly what I asked for.

I think it is absolutely awesome that someone understands their realm so well that they are able to make adjustments in their engine component to compensate for down falls and discrepancies in other components. In that I mean Chris Straub cut a cam for my Edlebrock RPM-O heads that, from my understanding through my engine builder, were not the best pick. So CSI gathered data from me and cut a custom billet roller for me based on my engine components and build, vehicle build, and intended usage. I use my truck daily and as a work truck/weekend warrior towing usually a 6,000lb bumper pull 23'ft camper, behind that a 6x10 trailer with Polaris rzr 1000 weighing about 2,000lbs, and the lil lady's dirt bike, tools and gear equaling about 6-700lbs in the bed. So total I usually have a 9,000-10,000lb pay load plus the truck ways 6,000lbs without my fat butt in it. The Miss is a skinny feather (in case she's reading). I wanted all my torque at 3,500rpm which seems to be exactly where the sweet spot is in this motor with 1.75"primary long tube headers and Eddie 650AVS. It pulls stupid hard and the NV4500 gearing with 4.11's and 33's seem to be a great combo all together.

The only thing I am going to change is the intake and carb. I am going to switch to a SMI stage 2 800cfm quadrajet and Edelbrock 7164 which is the RPM spreadbore intake. I played with both a 650AVS and the 800AVS on this motor and it showed traits that it like both, the 650 down low and off idle, and the 800 up high. But neither carb could give me the best of both worlds. So that points to a spreadbore.

Furthermore about CSI, I found plenty of threads on multiple forums reaching back to about 2010 that consistently stated that CSI's desk top dyno estimates given for each person's cam order with their motor build was conservatively within 4% of proven dyno results. If so that is pretty impressive! Straub said with my build and this cam I should see 612 ft/lbs torque at 3,500rpm and 450hp. No i did not have mine actually dyno'ed.

['63GENIII]

Originally Posted by snj8198

Hi Chris, Sorry I'm just getting back to you.

The Straub Cam: I got exactly what I asked for.

I think it is absolutely awesome that someone understands their realm so well that they are able to make adjustments in their engine component to compensate for down falls and discrepancies in other components. In that I mean Chris Straub cut a cam for my Edlebrock RPM-O heads that, from my understanding through my engine builder, were not the best pick. So CSI gathered data from me and cut a custom billet roller for me based on my engine components and build, vehicle build, and intended usage. I use my truck daily and as a work truck/weekend warrior towing usually a 6,000lb bumper pull 23'ft camper, behind that a 6x10 trailer with Polaris rzr 1000 weighing about 2,000lbs, and the lil lady's dirt bike, tools and gear equaling about 6-700lbs in the bed. So total I usually have a 9,000-10,000lb pay load plus the truck ways 6,000lbs without my fat butt in it. The Miss is a skinny feather (in case she's reading). I wanted all my torque at 3,500rpm which seems to be exactly where the sweet spot is in this motor with 1.75"primary long tube headers and Eddie 650AVS. It pulls stupid hard and the NV4500 gearing with 4.11's and 33's seem to be a great combo all together.

The only thing I am going to change is the intake and carb. I am going to switch to a SMI stage 2 800cfm quadrajet and Edelbrock 7164 which is the RPM spreadbore intake. I played with both a 650AVS and the 800AVS on this motor and it showed traits that it like both, the 650 down low and off idle, and the 800 up high. But neither carb could give me the best of both worlds. So that points to a spreadbore.

Furthermore about CSI, I found plenty of threads on multiple forums reaching back to about 2010 that consistently stated that CSI's desk top dyno estimates given for each person's cam order with their motor build was conservatively within 4% of proven dyno results. If so that is pretty impressive! Straub said with my build and this cam I should see 612 ft/lbs torque at 3,500rpm and 450hp. No i did not have mine actually dyno'ed.

Uhhh, so I take it you're happy with it? All kidding aside Steve, thanks for the info! I have yet to hear that someone is unhappy with CSI. In fact, most things Ive read so far are very similar to your experience.
Im pretty stoked to get this kit in my hands. My machinist Gary didn't even bother to recommend a cam after I told him that I had talked to Chris. Probably going to pull the trigger on the next pay day. Its a lot of loot but I know this is the best way to go. At the end of the day, Id be pretty close to the same price with an off the shelf grind and Id still be running a "generic" cam, wondering what Im missing. For a couple extra bucks, Ill sleep better knowing that if Im leaving something on the table with this cam, it won't be much if anything.

['63GENIII]

Just re read your post Steve. Im not sure I understand. Did you say you pull a 23' travel trailer with another trailer hooked to the back of the travel trailer?

[snj8198]

Originally Posted by '63GENIII

Just re read your post Steve. Im not sure I understand. Did you say you pull a 23' travel trailer with another trailer hooked to the back of the travel trailer?

yep, I pull double, tho I would prefer the lead trailer to be a goose neck but I have been using a sway control friction bar and watching my weight distribution. It all pulls well at 65-70mph and I slow to 60 going down hill. The real trick is keeping the rear trailer at only 10-15% tongue weight and keep as much weight forward on the lead trailer. So far no tail wagging issues. Also, I have 4 wheel disks and 1 ton booster/MC on the truck and both are brake axles on the camper controlled by a Prodigy controller as well so plenty of braking action.

I get a lot of looks when people see this old truck roaring up mountain passes at 55 with bed loaded, 2 trailers in tow and the 3" pipes barking off canyon walls!! The exhaust picks up a completely different note when really loaded at 3,500rpm, it gets really deep and throaty. Absolutely awesome!

Back to topic... ya the CSI bump stick was $400 so it's not cheap. It's a really pretty billet stick in the box and again his reputation can't be beat. I felt very comfortable going this route and I think you will too. Just be sure you know and have your engine build established before making your order. Perhaps a guy could even call him ahead of time with build plans to see if he has any suggestions for slight mods before cutting a custom cam just to be sure you are maximizing without dropping major coin of course.

['63GENIII]

Originally Posted by snj8198

yep, I pull double, tho I would prefer the lead trailer to be a goose neck but I have been using a sway control friction bar and watching my weight distribution. It all pulls well at 65-70mph and I slow to 60 going down hill.

I get a lot of looks when people see this old truck roaring up mountain passes at 55 with bed loaded, 2 trailers in tow and the 3" pipes barking off canyon walls!! The exhaust picks up a completely different note when really loaded at 3,500rpm, it gets really deep and throaty. Absolutely awesome!

Back to topic... ya the CSI bump stick was $400 so it's not cheap. It's a really pretty billet stick in the box and again his reputation can't be beat. I felt very comfortable going this route and I think you will too. Just be sure you know and have your engine build established before making your order. Perhaps a guy could even call him ahead of time with build plans to see if he has any suggestions for slight mods before cutting a custom cam just to be sure you are maximizing without dropping major coin of course.

That's what I thought you said. Ive only seen it once out here on the 5. I thought it was some sort of hallucination when I saw it. Ill bet you get some looks! I thought that I had towed some crazy stuff in my time but pulling doubles... thats the stuff of lifetime man card status!


Im ordering the cam tomorrow morning when I get to work. Hoping it only takes 3 weeks to get. Sounds like race season is getting under way and Im sure he will be pretty busy. Thanks for all of the good information on SDI. Cant wait to get the Red Truck going again. Looks like Im going to be tied up with getting the fuel system, exhaust and PCM re flashed in the next couple of weeks while Im waiting on the cam.

['63GENIII]

Little update on the build. Just got the shipping confirmation on the Straub cam today!!! Its supposed to be here next Friday! Super stoked here to start getting this build on!

I did ask my machinist Gary about the Engine Pro bearings. He told me to bring them back so that he could take a look at them. All of my research said that they were repacked ACS bearings from Australia. In years past, ACS has made bearings for Clevite, Vandervel and almost every car manufacturer for their new OEM engines. The "made in China" stamped on the box is what had me confused.
When I got to the machine shop the next day, Gary had a new set of Clevite 77s waiting. He took a look at the Chinese bearings and had to admit that they were a very convincing knockoff. It was only seeing that one letter was missing on the bearing itself that gave it away for him. Im happy to know that the right stuff is going into the lower end of the L29.

I also picked up the heads and they look cherry! I did the water test on all of the ports and not one drop got past any of the valves. New valve springs, titanium keepers and locks. I feel real good about the heads too.

To do list goes something like this;
Complete fuel system hard lines and install in tank pump
New cast aluminum distributor
Get adjustable rocker studs and guide plate kit
Find new adjustable single roller timing chain
New HV oil pump and new pump shaft without the little plastic collar

The wife's car has been doing great now for a month, I got my commuter running again last weekend after a blown head gasket, the side job van is running right again after a month of being down, Little League and my youngest Daughter's Fast Pitch Softball is over on Wednesday, my Pop is getting the tractor out of the garage on Sunday and our year long refinance is almost done. With all of that off of my plate, I may be able to get started on the truck within a couple of weeks! Man its been a busy couple of months getting to this point!

Hope to have some real Red Truck updates soon!

[snj8198]

Congrats on your accomplishments!

['63GENIII]

No major updates with the exception of the cam arriving last Thursday. Its a nice looking package. New 3/8" pushrods, Morel roller hydraulic lifters and of course the cam.

Interesting note on the cam. I have been doing a lot of reading on cams that are meant to work with fuel injection and have noted that most of what Ive read has said that FI engines seem to favor cams with a wider LSA - say 112 to 116 or so to run well.
My new cam has the LSA at 109 and not really understanding all (or most) of the technical parts of cam operation, well I kinda panicked. I started looking up the other cams often used in the L29 (stock, 454 HO, 502 Mag) and found that the stock cam had a LSA of 110, the 454HO and 502 were 112. All of this info made me feel a little better although I really didn't understand why.

If anyone can explain how narrowing or widening the LSA plays into operation of the cam and how it makes power, Id really appreciate it! I really feel stupid asking Chris Straub to explain it to me but I feel way more comfortable asking you guys.

[snj8198]

He cut mine on a 107LSA and told me too it was good for efi which was contrary to all the research I have done as well. I have been wondering about this because I plan to either jump back into my old Pro Flo system or into a new throttle body system.

Keep in mind the 4 stroke cycle event: intake-combustion-power-exhaust, repeat.

Keeping your exhaust and intake lobe as well as all other cam parameters the same; Lobe Seperation Angle is the distance of the exhaust lobe center point from the intake lobe center point measured in degrees around the cam's base circle. The LSA rotates the exhaust lobe either closer or further away in reference to its corresponding intake lobe. A numerically lower number like 107 degrees means the lobes' center lines or "peaks" are closer together and referred to as "tighter" or "narrow" where as a numerically higher LSA of say 116 degrees means the lobe center lines are further apart in reference to one another and referred to as "loose" or "wide".

What LSA controls or allows is a certain amount of over lap of the valves during the cylinder's intake event. Remember during the intake stroke the exhaust valve is on the closing side of the cam lobe while the intake valve is on the opening side of its cam lobe. A narrower LSA will have more valve overlap which means the exhaust valve will still be slightly open for a period of time through the intake event where as a wider LSA will allow less overlap which means the exhaust valve will not be open for as long while the intake is open.

Remember in naturally aspirated applications the incoming fuel during the intake stroke is relying solely on vacuum created by the downward drawing piston. Having the exhaust valve still slightly open during the intake stroke creates a scavenging effect within the cylinder because the spent gases escaping through exhaust valve help draw in the new intake fuel charge thus fill the cylinder more. This also allows some of the new intake charge to escape out the exhaust valve and that is what you here in the exhaust pipe when you are running a rowdier cam shaft.. the bumpity bump good stuff!

Now in reference to efi and camshaft profile, I'm still not positive on the science. I am guessing that since efi is introducing fuel into the air stream under higher pressures than carburation the cylinder doesn't need as much scavenging help and by closing the exhaust valve sooner the cylinder retains the charge, and has less blow by which makes tuning efi easier??

Looks like I better get another cup of coffee and study some more.

[storm9c1]

Good summary on the subject:

http://www.compcams.com/technical/FAQ/LSAproperties.asp

Some of the engine discussions regarding LSA and EFI also has EGR in the mix (on stock engines). With an EGR valve, you don't want or need a smaller LSA since it's the EGR valve's job instead of having natural EGR. On stock engines that expect EGR, this could cause tuning problems.

Case in point. In the 90s, GM came out with the LT1. This engine had an external EGR valve. Then the hotter LT4 came along, which did not! The LT4 was the same engine, just hotter heads, cam, and intake. GM designed the LT4 cam to provide enough natural EGR, that an external EGR valve was not needed. And somehow they convinced the EPA of this as well!

The other generic rule of thumb that I've always known... a larger LSA is better for higher RPM use. But if you want low-end torque, it's usually good to have a smaller LSA. I say "usually" because there are other factors of course that need to play nicely together.

['63GENIII]

Thanks for the explanations Steve and Tom. I understand a little better now. Im really curious to get this thing lit off and hear the idle now. Although it being a mainly torque building cam, and the durations aren't crazy big, the narrower LSA has me biting at the bit to hear it when it finally does run!