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Old 02-12-2017, 05:51 PM   #1876
BMERDOC
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Re: Make it handle

I apologize for not having a lot of time to answer your question but a simple solution for bump steer is to move the outer tie rods to the lower side of the spindle.
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Old 02-12-2017, 09:48 PM   #1877
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Exclamation Re: Make it handle

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Originally Posted by mcmlxix View Post
Hey Rob, have you seen the Wilwood ProSpindle kit? It has a modular design with a removable steering arm, sealed bearing for slip on rotors and a 2.5" built in drop.

http://www.wilwood.com/PDF/Flyers/fl427.pdf ..................... http://www.wilwood.com/PDF/DataSheets/ds1194.pdf


THIS.... FTW!! Exactly what I have been asking for!!
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Old 02-13-2017, 01:12 PM   #1878
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Re: Make it handle

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Originally Posted by BMERDOC View Post
I apologize for not having a lot of time to answer your question but a simple solution for bump steer is to move the outer tie rods to the lower side of the spindle.
But I thought that was backwards of what Rob said before...even with massive 9* caster. I am probably just very confused

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Old 02-15-2017, 10:20 PM   #1879
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Re: Make it handle

Can I get some help with understanding truck suspension?

Meaning, I have a 1984 C10 and a 2015 Toyota Tundra. I love my Tundra's ride and power just fine, so I'd like to replicate it. Not so much get it to handle like a sports car but more of a modern truck. Only suspension improvement I did to my 4.6L SR Tundra was Bilsteins all around and a rear sway bar.

So what improvements could I make to closely mimic my Tundra?

Example for improving the rear suspension -

C10 with new shocks and improved panhard bar = Modern Truck
C10 with new shock, leaf springs and trailing arms = Modern Performance Truck
C10 with a 4-Link suspension in the rear = Modern Sports Car

Am I making sense? What I'm trying to do is improve the truck to be decent handling like a modern truck, I'm not looking for it to act like a Corvette.

I thought this might be a good thread to throw out this question. Hope I'm not out of place. Thanks in advance!

Rob
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Old 02-16-2017, 04:37 PM   #1880
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Re: Make it handle

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Originally Posted by mcmlxix View Post
Hey Rob, have you seen the Wilwood ProSpindle kit? It has a modular design with a removable steering arm, sealed bearing for slip on rotors and a 2.5" built in drop.

http://www.wilwood.com/PDF/Flyers/fl427.pdf ..................... http://www.wilwood.com/PDF/DataSheets/ds1194.pdf


oooo, that's cool! So may sound like a dumb question, but how come we've never seen brake setups with 2 calipers on the same rotor? I mean that's essentially all a multi piston multi pad caliper is, it's just multiple calipers in the same housing, so why not multiple calipers in different housings? This spindle seems pre-setup to run a leading and a trailing caliper at the same time.
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Old 02-16-2017, 05:03 PM   #1881
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Re: Make it handle

I have em in the rear. New wilwood on the front also
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Old 02-16-2017, 05:05 PM   #1882
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Re: Make it handle

New wilwood spindle and brakes
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Old 02-16-2017, 05:35 PM   #1883
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Re: Make it handle

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I have em in the rear. New wilwood on the front also
So tell us about the dual calipers.
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Old 02-19-2017, 07:08 PM   #1884
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Re: Make it handle

Awesome, I'd love to do a dual caliper setup like that in the front. Again though I'd be really curious what the downside is, has to be something or we'd see this more commonly. Seems like it would distribute the stress on the rotor more evenly and might actually reduce rotor warp. One argument might be heat, but I don't see how that changes really from a single huge caliper with more pistons exerting more force is different from a physics standpoint. If I was going to do it I'd probably try and do it with 2 piston aluminum sliders which are way lighter than 6 piston fixed calipers, so the weight would be probably about a break even.

Personally I'd probably pair the front with the same size rotors in the back and a single front caliper. Assuming duals in the front actually provide some significant ratio of improvement that this balance make sense. Hmmm.
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Old 02-20-2017, 01:08 AM   #1885
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Re: Make it handle

I think the Audi R8 has dual calipers in the rear, one may be an emergency brake.

I would think that the master cylinder would need the appropriate size for all the pistons in both calipers, like you said, no different than one huge 6 piston caliper. I think you might need to split the brake line and feed both calipers rather than in series.

This would be great for someone who wants to run smaller wheels and can't fit the big 6 piston calipers...
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Old 02-21-2017, 02:58 PM   #1886
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Re: Make it handle

This revelation sent me on a Google mission, apparently dual calipers are fairly common, but not for the reason at hand. It seems this is a common trick among drifters, with one caliper connected to the pedal and the other connected to individual hand brake levers.

It's also been used on quite a few F1, endurance racers and rally cars. I agree you would probably need to split the lines, vs. series, perhaps even splitting the lines *and* providing an additional pressure balance line from caliper to caliper, just thinking. While I think master cylinder piston volume matters, of course it would, but I am looking at this from a standpoint of using 2 Z51 sliding calipers (2 pistons each) and given that the master is the same as used on Z06 calipers (6 pistons each) I am not sure it wouldn't be something you could deal with, especially in a hydroboost setup. In the grand scheme of things, even the 2 piston Z51 calipers can dead lock a pretty big sticky tire, it's just a matter of how many times it can do it in what period of time.

I also wonder about using 2 different pad compounds in a setup like this, where say you use a hot track compound on one inner and one outer, in opposite calipers, and a cooler street compound on the other sides. Sliding calipers should level out the wear, and one on each side of the rotor should even out the temperature. I can see where this could give you extended heat range in your brakes, decent cold stopping and extended resistance to high temp fade.
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Old 02-23-2017, 04:20 PM   #1887
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Re: Make it handle

What do you suggest for wheels? I really want Forgeline, but they are spendy. What is an economical wheel that will handle the abuse of autocross? What diameter should I run?
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Old 02-23-2017, 05:30 PM   #1888
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Re: Make it handle

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What do you suggest for wheels? I really want Forgeline, but they are spendy. What is an economical wheel that will handle the abuse of autocross? What diameter should I run?
Weld Racing has a forged series that's popular for those not on a top tier budget.
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Old 02-23-2017, 05:38 PM   #1889
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Re: Make it handle

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What do you suggest for wheels? I really want Forgeline, but they are spendy. What is an economical wheel that will handle the abuse of autocross? What diameter should I run?
The $64,000 question. For true performance, there are two factors. Strength and weight. Wheel and tire weight is the worst weight on the truck. Un-Sprung and rotating. Forgeline is popular for this reason. CCW, Formula 43, and Raceline are some more. Size may play a factor in wheel choice. Enkie makes a very strong and light wheel, but they don't make them very big. When it comes to size, part of that is for the 'look'. For the performance side, I would size to the current trend in tires. That would be 18" or 19". Do your homework on what tire sizes are available, and for what cars (corvettes, Vipers and suck) because the tire companies will not leave these customers hangin, not true for a C10 racer who likes 335/30/18's - we're just not plentiful enough for them to care. If I was doing a fresh build (without $$ concern) I would go 19x11 all around and run the Bridgestone RE-71 in a 305 (measures as wide as most 325's). Back in reality, my current new build "Goldy", a perf/driver, is on 20 x 10 Coys with 295 BFG's. Caution, many guys with 20's that are auto-Xin gwish they had 18's for better tire choice. Let us know.
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Old 02-24-2017, 02:46 AM   #1890
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Re: Make it handle

hey Rob
i wanna run 20x10s as well, whats the plan for inner fenders
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Old 04-09-2017, 03:14 PM   #1891
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Re: Make it handle

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Your biggest hurdle is rear Un-Sprung weight. that is, the total weight of all the components that are not supported by the suspension (springs). This would include the rear axle, brakes, wheels, tires, U-bolt hadrware and plates, and half of the leaf springs and shocks. Lets say there is 1400 lbs total rear wt., and, your rear un=sprung wt is appx 600 lbs. That means that the 'spung' weight on the rear axle is appx 800 lbs. So, your rear un-sprung weight percentage is close to 75% of sprung weight. This = disaster in the suspension world. 50% is the max for anything that handles. To get there, you could A) add 400 lbs to the rear sprung weight (this is why duallys ride better with 1000 lb of crap in the bed), or, B) swap to a lightweight 9" and 4-bar, and light weight wheels/tires. - I know, neither of these is going to happen. - But, now you know what your up against. Go with big sway bars and good shocks (try off roar pre runner valve styles) don't worry too much about the springs.
So if you have flipped the axle does this change the unsprung weight of the axle?
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Old 04-10-2017, 11:11 AM   #1892
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Re: Make it handle

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hey Rob
i wanna run 20x10s as well, whats the plan for inner fenders
Well, fab or modify your own, Slosh Tubbs, or Munssey design.
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Old 04-10-2017, 11:12 AM   #1893
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Re: Make it handle

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So if you have flipped the axle does this change the unsprung weight of the axle?
Nope, changing the position of the mounting doesn't change the weight percentage.
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