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Old 06-19-2018, 01:36 PM   #1
D.PASSMORE
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High Torque Mini Starters

My stock starter is going out and I would like to try something different, so I was researching mini starters, came across this guy:

Powermaster Ultra Torque Starters 9400

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pwm-9400

I know its a powerful starter for a Gen 1 / 350 running 9.87 compression. Its a mini made out of aluminum, with adjustable mount plate. I need the adjustable mount plate because I'm running a SM465 with stock bell housing.

My issue with stock High torque starters is when they heat up, they dragggg. I have done all the suggested fixes, starter wrapped in thermal tape, aluminum heat shield, new H/D battery cables wrapped in thermal tape. Running Oddessy battery (always)...

Blazer has been sitting for a few weeks, went to start it yesterday, starter dragged a little, thought it might be battery, ran it for a while, check voltage, good, ran for about 10 miles down the road. Came back, shut if off restart, barley turn over, put big battery charger on it, no effect, drag and would not fire. Battery is good under load test. Seems like when it heats up, it dies. Went out this morning, fired up no problem. So, just looking at different options and opinions.

Thanks
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Old 06-19-2018, 01:56 PM   #2
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Re: High Torque Mini Starters

I have had same problem with my 350s.
I dont know if I would ever put anything but a high torque starter on my Chevys
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Old 06-19-2018, 04:06 PM   #3
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Re: High Torque Mini Starters

I've run the Summit brand high-torque mini starters on a few vehicles. Have one currently on the 454 in the dually. Never had a heat soak issue with them, even when tucked in behind the headers on a 72 El Camino.
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Old 06-20-2018, 12:04 AM   #4
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Re: High Torque Mini Starters

I've run a Jegs mini for years, never misses a beat.
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Old 06-20-2018, 09:14 AM   #5
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Re: High Torque Mini Starters

Possible the starter brushes are shot. Less then a $10 fix the last time mine went out. And you don't have to deal with a new shim setup.
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Old 06-20-2018, 11:19 AM   #6
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Re: High Torque Mini Starters

Quote:
Originally Posted by D.PASSMORE View Post
My issue with stock High torque starters is when they heat up, they dragggg. I have done all the suggested fixes, starter wrapped in thermal tape, aluminum heat shield, new H/D battery cables wrapped in thermal tape. Running Oddessy battery (always)...

Thanks
Try the remote "Ford" type solenoid. I went thru the heatsoak dilemma years ago, and like you, tried everything. The remote solenoid fixed it once and for all. I just changed my current 85 k20 over. It sure makes installing/removing the starter easy by getting those cables out of the way. I'm in S.Arizona- summer temps 110+, headers and high compression.
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Old 06-20-2018, 11:41 AM   #7
D.PASSMORE
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Re: High Torque Mini Starters

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Originally Posted by SunSoaked View Post
Try the remote "Ford" type solenoid. I went thru the heatsoak dilemma years ago, and like you, tried everything. The remote solenoid fixed it once and for all. I just changed my current 85 k20 over. It sure makes installing/removing the starter easy by getting those cables out of the way. I'm in S.Arizona- summer temps 110+, headers and high compression.
Do you have any pictures of this set up? Sounds interesting.
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Old 06-20-2018, 12:28 PM   #8
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Re: High Torque Mini Starters

https://www.summitracing.com/search?...sre-brand-_-ad
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Old 06-20-2018, 12:30 PM   #9
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Re: High Torque Mini Starters

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Do you have any pictures of this set up? Sounds interesting.
Pretty easy to do. I have all my GM vehicles set up that way.

You need to pull all the wires off your starter.
-You will have a heavy battery cable and a 10ga wire or two on the same heavy stud. Those will all still stay together on the new setup.
-You will also have a lighter gauge wire going to the back of the solenoid on the starter.

Mount the Ford solenoid somewhere convenient.

All of the wires that were on the heavy stud on the starter will go to one of the heavy lugs on the solenoid. The lighter gauge wire goes to the "S" terminal on the solenoid. You need to add one more heavy wire from the other heavy stud on the solenoid to the heavy stud on the starter. Final piece is make a 10ga jumper to go from the heavy stud on the starter to the smaller stud where the lighter gauge wire was.

This does a few things -
- You no longer have electrically energized wires running to the starter all the time.
- You are no longer pushing 10-15 amps through your ignition switch to engage the starter. The Ford uses less than 3A.
- You get more power to the solenoid on the starter because you are not running it through 15 feet of wire and your ignition switch.
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Old 06-20-2018, 12:37 PM   #10
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Re: High Torque Mini Starters

Most importantly is that it gets the solenoid away from the engine heat, especially if you're running headers. The heat is what causes the solenoid to drag due to thermal expansion.
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Old 06-20-2018, 01:22 PM   #11
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Re: High Torque Mini Starters

I’m also running a high torque on my K30 big block 454 with headers, works fine.
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Old 06-20-2018, 02:05 PM   #12
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Re: High Torque Mini Starters

I guess I've been lucky... I've driven Chevy Cars and Trucks my whole life (44 years) and never experienced heat soak on a starter. I have also installed headers on every vehicle I've ever owned.

Gary
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I love using vacuum gauges as part of the carb tuning process. I hook the gauge to the inside of my garbage can and leave it there.
Quote:
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Remember Murphys 2nd law of mechanical relationships... "OPPOSING COMPONENTS ATTEMPTING TO OCCUPY THE SAME SPACE, AT THE SAME TIME, GENERALLY END UP OCCUPYING ADJOINING SPACE AT THE BOTTOM OF THE OIL PAN"
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Old 06-21-2018, 04:13 PM   #13
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Re: High Torque Mini Starters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Parrot View Post
Possible the starter brushes are shot. Less then a $10 fix the last time mine went out. And you don't have to deal with a new shim setup.
And that will give you a chance to inspect and clean up the commutator, too.
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Old 06-21-2018, 06:24 PM   #14
D.PASSMORE
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Re: High Torque Mini Starters

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Originally Posted by GASoline71 View Post
I guess I've been lucky... I've driven Chevy Cars and Trucks my whole life (44 years) and never experienced heat soak on a starter. I have also installed headers on every vehicle I've ever owned.

Gary
Gary, first time I've dealt with this. I'm not running headers, just straight dump 2.5 ram horns. I'm going to have the starter rebuilt by a shop that I have used for years. Put it back on, go from there. Got a good direction, I appreciate everyone's input, hope this helps other folks too.
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Old 06-21-2018, 09:47 PM   #15
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Re: High Torque Mini Starters

My '86 K30 with the 454 and headers heat soaks in a bad way. It will be getting a gear reduction starter at some point.

I put a Denso style CVR starter on my Jimmy 20 years ago like in your picture for the same reason, the cast iron bellhousing with it's block mount starter. I would not hesitate to do the same again.

GM quit running the old style starts and I have as well. As soon as one takes a dump I usually replace it with a brand new AC Delco gear reduction starter off Rock Auto for about $75. But the cast iron bell makes the non-supported nose type an easier fit.

The TuffStuff is only $151 at Jegs... My Jimmy has a 9.8:1 327 in it an the CVR has been great.
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Old 06-23-2018, 10:51 AM   #16
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Re: High Torque Mini Starters

Quote:
Originally Posted by D.PASSMORE View Post
Gary, first time I've dealt with this. I'm not running headers, just straight dump 2.5 ram horns. I'm going to have the starter rebuilt by a shop that I have used for years. Put it back on, go from there. Got a good direction, I appreciate everyone's input, hope this helps other folks too.
10-4! I have helped other cats install the remote solenoid, because they too were experiencing the heat soak problem. Again... no idear why I've never had this issue for as long as I've owned and drove GM cars and trucks.

Gary
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My 1972 GMC 1500 Super Custom (Creeping Death) "long term" build thread.

The Rebuild of Creeping Death after the wreck

Quote:
Originally Posted by LONGHAIR View Post
I would never rebuild a 305.
Quote:
Originally Posted by prostreetC-10 View Post
I love using vacuum gauges as part of the carb tuning process. I hook the gauge to the inside of my garbage can and leave it there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marv D View Post
Remember Murphys 2nd law of mechanical relationships... "OPPOSING COMPONENTS ATTEMPTING TO OCCUPY THE SAME SPACE, AT THE SAME TIME, GENERALLY END UP OCCUPYING ADJOINING SPACE AT THE BOTTOM OF THE OIL PAN"
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Old 06-23-2018, 08:17 PM   #17
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Re: High Torque Mini Starters

Quote:
Originally Posted by SunSoaked View Post
Try the remote "Ford" type solenoid. I went thru the heatsoak dilemma years ago, and like you, tried everything. The remote solenoid fixed it once and for all. I just changed my current 85 k20 over. It sure makes installing/removing the starter easy by getting those cables out of the way. I'm in S.Arizona- summer temps 110+, headers and high compression.
Obviously if adding another solenoid resolved the issue, it was never heat soak because the heat hasn't changed a bit. The wiring was changed, which is the actual issue. Adding more components to a system that someone can't troubleshoot is not the correct answer.
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Old 06-25-2018, 02:40 PM   #18
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Re: High Torque Mini Starters

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Obviously if adding another solenoid resolved the issue, it was never heat soak because the heat hasn't changed a bit. The wiring was changed, which is the actual issue. Adding more components to a system that someone can't troubleshoot is not the correct answer.
Yes, heat soak was the issue. The solenoid on the starter gets heat soaked and it can't pull enough current through the ignition switch circuit. Going to the Ford solenoid allows for it to basically pull as much current as it needs and that helps to overcome the issue. Not to mention you also get all of your main electrical feed and charging wires up out of that hot environment which helps everything.
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Old 06-25-2018, 03:05 PM   #19
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Re: High Torque Mini Starters

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Originally Posted by DieselSJ View Post
Yes, heat soak was the issue. The solenoid on the starter gets heat soaked and it can't pull enough current through the ignition switch circuit. Going to the Ford solenoid allows for it to basically pull as much current as it needs and that helps to overcome the issue. Not to mention you also get all of your main electrical feed and charging wires up out of that hot environment which helps everything.
Exactly. Hard to argue with success.
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Old 06-25-2018, 06:17 PM   #20
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Re: High Torque Mini Starters

Quote:
Originally Posted by franken View Post
Obviously if adding another solenoid resolved the issue, it was never heat soak because the heat hasn't changed a bit. The wiring was changed, which is the actual issue. Adding more components to a system that someone can't troubleshoot is not the correct answer.

I understand what your saying, I installed a new MH engine electrical harness, firewall forward when I pulled engine for rebuild. I ordered a Painless Performance Remote Starter Solenoids 30203. I wanted to look at the wiring diagram to see how it works with GM starter.
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Old 06-26-2018, 06:48 PM   #21
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Re: High Torque Mini Starters

Quote:
Originally Posted by D.PASSMORE View Post
I understand what your saying, I installed a new MH engine electrical harness, firewall forward when I pulled engine for rebuild. I ordered a Painless Performance Remote Starter Solenoids 30203. I wanted to look at the wiring diagram to see how it works with GM starter.
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Old 06-28-2018, 10:28 PM   #22
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Re: High Torque Mini Starters

Got the Painless Performance Remote Starter Solenoids 30203 kit. Looked at the wiring diagram, makes sense. Rebuild starter, install the solenoid kit. Its time for new Battery cables. Ill have to hand make those to fit. I will get some picture once its done.
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Old 06-30-2018, 01:53 AM   #23
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Re: High Torque Mini Starters

Quote:
Originally Posted by GASoline71 View Post
I guess I've been lucky... I've driven Chevy Cars and Trucks my whole life (44 years) and never experienced heat soak on a starter. I have also installed headers on every vehicle I've ever owned.

Gary
You sir lead a charmed live as I have fought the heat soak thing on my 77 Dualie with a 454 since I bought the truck and think that was an issue before that. A Mr Gasket heat shield, Ford remote solenoid and larger cables seem to have done a pretty reasonable job of curing the problem.

On the gear reduction starter thing. Later GM rigs run gear reduction starters that are bolt on for earlier engines.
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Old 06-30-2018, 04:41 PM   #24
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Re: High Torque Mini Starters

Quote:
Originally Posted by DieselSJ View Post
Yes, heat soak was the issue. The solenoid on the starter gets heat soaked and it can't pull enough current through the ignition switch circuit. Going to the Ford solenoid allows for it to basically pull as much current as it needs and that helps to overcome the issue. Not to mention you also get all of your main electrical feed and charging wires up out of that hot environment which helps everything.
You didn't understand what I meant, and don't know what the real issue is or how to correctly solve it.
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Old 06-30-2018, 08:20 PM   #25
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Re: High Torque Mini Starters

I had this problem. Here is a quote from Vettevet who helped me concerning the ford solenoid fix (and he is the best here).

"If the starter turns over it indicates that the solenoid is not heat soaked or it probably wouldn't even click.If you are getting a slow roll all the time when the engine is warm then the Ford solenoid is most likely not going to help."

A high torque mini starter fixed it for me.

Here is the link to my thread. Lots of good info here.

http://www.67-72chevytrucks.com/vboa...d.php?t=729029
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