Any reason why not to run 10w30 synthetic racing oil in my new rebuilt sb400?

[Hazieview]

I'm running a SB400 with flat tapet hydraulic lifters. I already broke the engine in with regular 10w30 and zddp plus.

Now I'm thinking of running VR1 10w30 synthetic racing oil on a daily basis. I do not have a catalytic converter.

Anyone see any reason why not to run synthetic racing oil? I hate having to order zddp plus when I can buy VR1 off the shelf...
Posted via Mobile Device
Posted via Mobile Device

[fast72beeper]

How many miles on motor? What brand of rings?

And...VR1 does NOT have much zinc in it...Look at the bottle, if it has SM or a SN rating, it does not have any more zinc than a regular motor oil. The VR1 non street legal oil has the zinc.

Do a search for a VOA (virgin oil analysis) on the VR1. Bob Is The Oil Guy has alot of VOAs.

[thesickc10]

youre not supposed to run synthetic until 500 miles i think.

[Hazieview]

Zero miles. My engine is a NEW rebuild. No clue of what brand rings, can't remember. VR1 is suppose to have a substantial amount of zinc needed for flat tapet applications.

From what I read, the difference between non street legal oil and VR1 street legal is that race only oil has to be changed every 500 miles instead of every 3000. Per the Valvoline Rep.

If anyone has some facts that is what I'm looking for. Just to make sure the oil is safe for my engine.

Thanks!!
Posted via Mobile Device

[INSIDIOUS '86]

They want race oil changed more often since it is usually in an engine that's run harder and has high flow filters instead of high filtering content.

I've run royal purp of the shelf for many years now and not an issue so far brand new comp cam too from three yrs ago
Posted via Mobile Device

[JTautomotive]

You could also run Rotella T 15W-40 heavy duty engine oil. its has enough zddp for flat tappet cams

[lolife99]

Joe Gibbs Hot Rod oil for flat tappet cammed engines.
http://www.joegibbsdriven.com/traini...hotrodoil.html

[INSIDIOUS '86]

Originally Posted by JTautomotive

You could also run Rotella T 15W-40 heavy duty engine oil. its has enough zddp for flat tappet cams

Not any more it doesn't
Posted via Mobile Device

[Hazieview]

Originally Posted by INSIDIOUS '86

Not any more it doesn't
Posted via Mobile Device

[mud.man.rj]

Well you will find more leaks with the synthetic the conventional oil, it has superior lubricity but as stated still needs a zinc additive.

[fast72beeper]

Originally Posted by Hazieview

Zero miles. My engine is a NEW rebuild. No clue of what brand rings, can't remember. VR1 is suppose to have a substantial amount of zinc needed for flat tapet applications.

From what I read, the difference between non street legal oil and VR1 street legal is that race only oil has to be changed every 500 miles instead of every 3000. Per the Valvoline Rep.

If anyone has some facts that is what I'm looking for. Just to make sure the oil is safe for my engine.

Thanks!!
Posted via Mobile Device

VRI DOES NOT have a "substanial amount of zinc". But, its your cam/pistons etc do as you will. You apparently dont like my answer. Somebody will come alongn and tell you VR1 is fine, they have run it for years, etc.

You want facts??? Go to the website I mentioned and look for a VOA..

HDl motor oil (Rotella, Delo, etc) still has more zinc than SL/SN passenger car oil. The HD oil is still around 1200 ppm of zinc.

As far as the rings....if you call Total Seal they will tell you 2k miles before using syn oil. Every engine builder has their opinion on the matter. I myself go 500ish before using a semi-syn oil....

[fast72beeper]

Originally Posted by INSIDIOUS '86

They want race oil changed more often since it is usually in an engine that's run harder and has high flow filters instead of high filtering content.
]

They want race oil changed sooner because it doesnt have a strong detergent pack, or in some cases no detergents or very little detergents.

[Pyrotechnic]

I know it's a pain to get the ZDDP plus everytime, but this actually seems cheaper than buying exotic oils. Seems like some stores offer discounts on multi bottle packs, so maybe you could order a large pack all at once and be good for awhile?

Also, it depends what kind of lobe profile the cam has. A 1960's lobe profile with slow ramp rates under stock springs needs little worry. I ran one with CJ-4 spec 15W-40 and it did fine with the lowered zinc/phosphorus.

The Comp Cams extreme energy series on the other hand uses aggressive roller like lobe profiles. Put these under the pressure of stiffer springs and use a new low emissions oil and it's a recipe for disaster.

[hatzie]

Total Seal and Hastings state that you should wait till @ 2K miles before change from dinosaur juice to fully seat the rings. The engine will likely last longer if you do. The oil filter will catch any damaging large (>10micron) metal particles.
You can get too much of a good thing. Clean fresh motor oil too early in your break-in is one of them. Iron micro particles from burrs on the cylinder walls suspended in the oil will help the rings polish/seat themselves into the cylinder walls. This polishing makes a longer lasting seal. As stated above it's entirely up to you.

My take on new motor oils. Worth every penny you paid for it.
With the new regulations from the Ministry Of The Environment (EPA) you can't count on any oil having significant zinc content including HD diesel oils. Zinc and Phosphorous slowly kill modern low cost catalytic convertors. With the new low zinc/zero phosphate oil formulations you'll need ZDDP additives after break-in unless you've put in roller lifters.

My roller lifter LS4 (09 Impala) can run the new low zinc oils. The BRM TDI in my 05.5 Jetta and the original 383 in my 69 Polara are another story. I still add ZDDP to the L65 6.5L engines in my trucks even though they have roller cams.

[INSIDIOUS '86]

Another option other than oil is having your camshaft nitrided
Posted via Mobile Device

[lolife99]

Found this on the internet,...

Heres the real story in thier own words (psted below) i obtained from the experts in the biz that mfg FT cams (if thats whats still in your 454) and from the oil mfgs perspective too so you could all see whats truth or myth as others are putting it incorrectly when it comes to proper oil rec for perf FT cam operation.

Here are a few oils most of which are avail locally at autozone/advanced auto/napa etc that are ok for FT cam use.

* valvoline VR1 race oil in conven and syn

* catrol edge syn 5w-50

* mobil1 15w-50 syn

* kendall GT titanium conven 20-50

* Chevron Dleo conven 15-40 (in a pinch for stock to mild perf ft cams)

* RP/Amsoil/Redline syn perf oils that state they are specifically formulated with increased zddp lvl's required for perf Ft cam apps.

* Brad Penn Grade1 perf oil

Scott
================================================== ============


From Amsoil:

Provide facts outlining lubrication requirements of flat tappet
camshaft engines and the importance of higher levels of zinc
and phosphorus.

ISSUES:
Flat tappet camshafts undego extreme pressure and loads,
thus requiring an engine oil that is fortified with anti-wear
additives (ZDDP) to provide premium protection. The severity of
higher spring pressure in racing engines also creates the need
for additional wear protection.

To preserve catalytic converter life, zinc/phosphorus levels in
motor oil have been reduced. Concerns have risen that oils
containing lower levels of zinc/phosphorus could provide
insufficient protection in high-pressure areas of flat tappets
and camshaft lobes found in many older and high performance
engines.

TECHNICAL DISCUSSION:
The most commonly used anti-wear additive in motor oils is
zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP). ZDDP contains both
zinc and phosphorus components working together to provide
anti-wear protection, and is most important during cam
“break-in” procedures. Proper break-in lubes should be used
during the break-in phase for all new or rebuilt engines with
flat tappets. These lubricants provide the extra protection
required to reduce wear at the point of contact during break-in
and help the flat tappet face properly mate with the cam lobe.
Once the break-in phase is completed.

AMSOIL motor oils which are formulated with high levels of zinc and phosphorus,
will provide premium protection to flat tappet cams.

The American Petroleum Institute (API) and International
Lubricants Standards Approval Committee (ILSAC) have
mandated the reduction of phosphorus to extend catalytic converter
life.

However, reducing the level of ZDDP can compromise
protection to engine components, most notably in flat
tappet camshafts.Current API SM and ILSAC GF-4 specifications
for gasoline engines have maximum and minimum
phosphorus levels of 800 ppm and 600 ppm .

All engines (especially flat tappet) benefit from oils with superior film strength and anti-wear (ZDDP) properties. The flat tappet/camshaft lobe interface is the one
area in an engine that has extreme contact load. Since this load
increases significantly (more when non-stock,high-pressure valve
springs are employed) the use of properly formulated motor
oils is extremely important to reduce wear and extend flat tappet/
camshaft life.(oil with elevated zddp >800ppm is not for use with cat converters)

AMSOIL recommends motor oils containing high levels of zinc/phosphorus for superior protection especially for
flat tappet cam applications.
================================================== ================

CRANE CAMS:

CRANE FLAT TAPPET CAMSHAFT RECOMMENDED BREAK-IN PROCEDURE
Due to the EPA’s mandate for zinc removal from most motor oils, proper flat tappet camshaft break-in procedure is more critical than ever before. This is true for both hydraulic and mechanical flat tappet Camshafts. As a point of interest, the most critical time in the life of a flat tappet camshaft is the first 20 minutes of “break-in” during which the bottoms of the tappets “mate-in” with the cam lobes.
There are some oils with additive packages that are better for camshaft “break-in”. These include, but are not limited to: (Brad Penn or Joe Gibbs racing) or a “race only” petroleum- based oil and include Crane Cams Part # 99003-1 Super Lube” additive. Do not use API rated “SL” or “SM” oil.

CAUTION: We do not recommend the use of synthetic oils for “break-in”. Prior to installing the camshaft and lifters, it is recommended that the crankcase be drained and filled with new, clean oil, as listed above. The oil filter should also be changed at this time. Proper flat tappet camshaft break-in starts with the cam installation and includes the following steps:

================================================== ================

Comp Cams:

Subject: Flat Tappet Camshaft Failures (Hydraulic & Solid/Mechanical)
Recent changes in oil and engine technology are likely the cause of premature camshaft
failure; here’s how you can protect your engine!

Premature flat tappet camshaft failure has been on the rise recently and not just with one brand or type of camshaft. In almost every case, the hardness or taper of the cam lobe is suspected, yet most of the time that is not the problem. This growing trend is due to factors that are completely unrelated to camshaft manufacture or quality control. Changes in today’s oil products and “advancements” in internal engine configurations have contributed to a harsher environment for the camshaft and a potential for failure during break-in.

Engine Oil Selection
Another major factor in the increase of flat tappet camshaft failure is your favorite brand of
engine oil. Simply put, today’s engine oil is just not the same as it used to be, thanks to ever tightening environmental regulations. The EPA has done a great job in reducing emissions and the effects of some of the ingredients found in traditional oils; however these changes in the oil have only made life tougher on your flat tappet camshaft. The lubricity of the oil and specifically the reduction of important anti-wear additives such as zinc and phosphorus, which help break-in and overall camshaft life, have been drastically reduced. In terms of oil selection, we recommend oil with the proper level of “ZDDP”, Zinc Dialkyl Dithiosphosphate additive fortification.

Recent market trends and misinformation have led to a new and adverse side effect known as “Overloading on ZDDP”. When overloading on ZDDP, the additive can actually cause blocking of other important additives, such as friction modifiers or detergent agents. It is imperative that the ZDDP level is carefully specified and blended to correct concentrations.

Engine Oils, Supplements, & Additives
Making certain that the camshaft and lifters are properly lubricated upon installation will
guarantee that they are protected during the critical start-up of your newly-built engine. COMP Cams® offers the right product for this job (COMP Cams® Part #153), and it is available in several different size containers for engine builder convenience. COMP Cams® also has a line of Break-In Oils (COMP Cams® Part #1590 [10w30] and #1595 [20w50]) which have a proprietary formula that includes the proper amount of critical additives, including ZDDP (Zinc& Phosphorus), Molybdenum, detergents and high grade base oil to give you the most optimumoil for the break-in and long-term running of all your purposefully chosen performance enginecomponents. If you have a preferred oil with which you feel comfortable, we strongly recommend the use of COMP Cams® Break-In Oil Additive (COMP Cams® Part #159) duringbreak-in.

COMP Cams®
3406 Democrat Rd. * Memphis, TN 38118
Phone: 1-800-999-0853 * Fax: (901) 366-1807
www.compcams.com
Part #255

Revised 1/29/10
subsequent testing has proven the durability benefits of its long term use. This proprietary blend of anti-wear ZDDP fortification, anti-fiction Molybdenum, and extreme pressure additives promotes proper break-in and protects against premature cam and lifter failure by replacing some of the beneficial ingredients that the oil companies have been forced to remove from off-theshelf oil. These specialized COMP Cams® lubricants are the best “insurance policy” you can buy, and are the first step to avoiding durability problems with your new flat tappet camshaft.
================================================== =====

MOBIL-1'S ANSWER TO OLD SCHOOL FT CAM'D MOTOR OIL REQUIREMENTS FROM THIER WEBSITE.
Heres an example from Mobil oil website question section on what they rec for a high perf ft cam app like your avg old school sbc with a high perf ft cam.

BTW,the 15w-50 nascar endorsed syn oil the Mobil-1 tech is reffering to below has a decent 1300ppm zddp per mobil-1 website and also note they/Mobil-1 didnt rec a much thinner 5-30 or 10-30 grade SN rated oil with a much lower zddp lvl for the hi perf FT cam app in question i cut & pasted from the Mobil-1 website which is because its not best choice in Mobil-1's opinon for that app.

So read the info i patsed below and then make you own choice from there weather to use low zddp lvl SN rated oils in your hi perf ft cam apps as long as said oil with good zddp lvl also has a good quality base stock oil & additive pkg to back up the proper zddp lvl to work together collectively as a strong team to better protect a hi perf FT cam'd motor.

Scott


Ask Mobil

Oil for a Modified 70’s Camaro

Ask Your Stickiest Question. . . Or ask us something you’ve always wanted to know about using our products. We’ll sort through all the submissions and present the best questions to our automotive experts. We'll share the questions and their answers here.

Question:

Oil for a Modified 70’s Camaro
Everyone seems to have an opinion and your chart does not go back to 1970. I just bought a 1970 Camaro highly modified 400 Chevy small block. The car does not get driven much - only to car shows and the drag strip a couple times a year. What is the best oil to use because these motors tend to have heat issues. It has a " flat tappet cam ". I want max protection and have used your products for years but not synthetics. Thanks for info.
-- Dennis Boyd, Lexington, KY

Answer:
For your Camaro, we would recommend Mobil 1™ 15W-50 synthetic motor oil. Mobil 1 15W-50 is a higher viscosity synthetic oil that delivers a thick oil film for protection of high performance engines. Mobil 1 15W-50 is recommended for older valve trains like the highly loaded flat tappets used in your Camaro. These types of engines benefit from the higher level of anti-wear (ZDDP) in that oil normally not required in newer generation vehicles.
==================================================

Brad Penn:

The Brad Penn® Penn Grade 1® High Performance Oils contain the higher level of anti-wear (ZDDP – zinc dialkyldithiophosphate) and enhanced film strength so critical to proper high performance engine protection. The Penn-Grade 1® oils “typical” 1,500 ppm Zinc (Zn) and 1340-1400 ppm Phosphorus (P) content provide the needed anti-wear protection to critical engine parts, such as piston/cylinder walls, roller cams under heavy valve spring pressure and especially those that employ a solid “flat tappet” type system. As important as the chemistry is to the Penn-Grade 1® oils, it is by no means the whole story. The unique base oil cut used to refine the Penn-Grade 1® High Performance Oils maintain a tremendous affinity to metal surfaces. This naturally occurring “metal wetting” characteristic enables the oil to stay put on your highly stressed engines and makes the Penn-Grade 1® High Performance Oil resist slinging for an extended period of time. Also, rest assured in knowing that the Penn-Grade 1® High Performance Oils are 100% Made in the USA.
==================================================
Scott,

The ILSAC requirement demands that you are only allowed to have max of 800ppm of ZDDP in energy conserving SM, SN & newest GF-5 motor oils, which are your 10W30 and lower viscosities.

As you can see the Mobil1 15W-50 syn is also API "SN" but we are allowed to formulate it with as much ZDDP in the formulation (1300ppm) for FT cam use without issue because it is not an energy conserving motor oil.

So to answer your question, it is never a good idea to use an ILSAC rated SM-SN-GF-5 motor oil (with 800ppm zddp) for flat tappet cammed engines.

-- Thank you for choosing ExxonMobil products

[el_fantasma]

An old thread but since lolife99 went to so much trouble, I'll add what I was told by Shell tech support

Our Rotella T4 15w-40 and 10w-30 both have 1200ppm of zinc and are perfect for your older flat tappet cam. These are most commonly known as diesel engine oil but would be suitable for use in a gasoline engine.

Sincerely,
Don
Shell Technical Information
1-800-237-8645 Option 3, 1
www.shell.com.

My engine is on its last legs so it doesn't matter much to me now, but when I replace the block next summer https://emea01.safelinks.protection....%3D&reserved=0 I'll be interested

[mud.man.rj]

I use the Rotella T4 15w40 0n every engine I build for my breakin oil then usually run a 10w30 with a Gm oil additive after that, over 30 years now and never had a flat tappet cam failure, cheap insurance.
Mudman.

[el_fantasma]

Originally Posted by mud.man.rj

I use the Rotella T4 15w40 0n every engine I build for my breakin oil then usually run a 10w30 with a Gm oil additive after that, over 30 years now and never had a flat tappet cam failure, cheap insurance.
Mudman.

Why don't you just continue using the Rotella, after the break in period? I'm not arguing, just trying to learn.

[mud.man.rj]

The 15w40 is way to much for cold weather, usually drive most of the year so even drop to 5w30 for the -20 to -35 celcius weather, when winter gets here last about 6-7 months easy. Plus the 15w40 spikes the oil pressure from a what would be normal to about 30psi higher when cold even in the summer so use for brake in only.
Mudman.

[brons2]

Originally Posted by mud.man.rj

The 15w40 is way to much for cold weather, usually drive most of the year so even drop to 5w30 for the -20 to -35 celcius weather, when winter gets here last about 6-7 months easy. Plus the 15w40 spikes the oil pressure from a what would be normal to about 30psi higher when cold even in the summer so use for brake in only.
Mudman.

Rotella T5 10w30 is sold here, I guess not there in Canada?

[gmachinz]

Too much technical jargon for any engine that isnt a sponsored race motor imo lol. I used to be an amsoil dealer-my rep while they wil always claim to be the best rated synthetic motor oil, he admitted that Mobil 1 is right behind them quality wise. Two things are should be looked at before anything else from my experience:

1.) Film strength
2.) Rate of evaporation

Film strength refers to an oils' resistance to being squeezed out from between 2 surfaces ie bearing/journal.

Rate of evaporation refers to how high of a temperature the oil can resist breaking down due to extreme heat-this is the brown yucky haze you see covering the insides of your valve covers like a slimy film-oxidized oil.

Most companies dont promote technical info because frankly, most oils wouldnt rank very high. But I am aware that Amsoil is as follows:

Film Strength 600 psi
Rate of Evaporation/Oxidation 1200F

Everybody seems to get hung up on detergents and such-I prefer an oil with extremely high film strength and resistance to breakdown-and so consequently these two pieces of criteria eliminate ALL conventional oils and most true synthetics. And look at the label of your chosen synthetic oil bottle-if it says Group III base or anything simialr-dont buy it. Group III is still a carbon basestock and is moreover just dino oil chocked full of synthetic additives to make it "mostly synthetic". This is exactly why Mobil sued Castrol over its Syntec claim back in the 1990's.