Help Me Pick Some Heads For Christmas Present

[Nuckingfuts]

Originally Posted by crazy longhorn

Brodix 180, brand new in my area (not mine)....check craigs list East moline Il. he says 925.00, pick up. On the left coast, you are a long ways out, but it sounds like a smokin deal! They should work well with the kids truck/cam ect. Longhorn

Yeah, that's going to be out of reach for west coast shipping costs. Those Brodix 180's have a good rep? Never heard of them before but will look into them in the event I find a deal closer to me. Thanks for the tip!

[geezer#99]

You might find some closer.
Look here.
https://www.racingjunk.com/category/1283/Heads.html

[Nuckingfuts]

Originally Posted by geezer#99

You might find some closer.
Look here.
https://www.racingjunk.com/category/1283/Heads.html

Thanks for the lead, I'll look into it.
BTW, those Bordix 180s look pretty promising!

[crazy longhorn]

Just keep in mind, the 492 castings(Z-28/LT1) ,were a 157cc runner. With a good 3 angle job/blend, they ran good on the street....then the aftermarket kicked in! if most of the time is on the street, I feel that a 170-180 show the best on a 355. Flow # vs velocity.On /the track, you want the flow #, as they will run higher revs. On the street, you want tork, in the lower ranges. Talk with Marv, (damn sharp old racer) he will get you in the right spot, on the build. ...longhorn

[Nuckingfuts]

Originally Posted by crazy longhorn

Talk with Marv, (damn sharp old racer) he will get you in the right spot, on the build. ...longhorn

Yeah I've read some of his posts and learned a lot. Was hoping he would chime in as well.

[Marv D]

I have been swamped with work and family and holidays and just not been around here much,, it's nice to know I'm missed (LoL)

I guess after reading this I'm still not clear what direction your jumping.

If you r convinced to go Vortec,, then only suggestion is buy a set of NEW GM / USA castings,, not any fleabay rebuilt import junk... but that's just my opinion. (just an add here, the aussie imports are a decent casting, the junk I mention is the SE asia imports)

World and Dart both have a iron head in the 170-180cc range that would probably fit here.

The world heads are a tad big, but put a decent set of gears to match tire and equate to about a 3.73 effective gear and I wouldn't sweat the 200cc. The port velocity is fairly good on those heads so low speed throttle response isn't horrible.
They arent a set of $1500 AFR street eliminators, but for around $800 you get what you pay for,, and all of your existing stuff (head bolts, rocker arms ,rocker covers, intake, carb, pushrods,, bla bla bla) ALL work. That is a BIG plus over the vortec craze that IMO is surely NOT the end all of performance the internet has racked them up to be. . (I have 2 Vortec motors right now so I don't say that without Apples and Apples comparison to back it up)


http://www.jegs.com/p/World-Products...46700/10002/-1


It's pretty easy to spend someone elses $$$ but If it were 'me' I'd be exactly where C.L. is with the Brodie 180s, or AFR 180 eliminator,,, BUT aluminum heads brings the need for head bolt set with washers ($110) and undoubetedly shiney new roller rockers ($375) and shiney new cast / fabricated aluminum rocker covers ($125 - 400), and. and. and .. and this slippery slope kicks the budget out the window in a big@$$ hurry.



The ONE thing to keep in mind with this is,, SBC parts are not getting any cheaper. If you buy the boy something he can GROW IN TO, as the need for faster faster faster demands,, your giving the gift that keeps on giving. When 370-425 isn't enough to satisfy his addiction,,, bump compresson and step into a roller cam and hes kocking on 500+HP without having to buy new heads.

One thing to maybe check in to... My machine shop is buying bare castings from AFR / Brodix/ Promax etc and filling them with decent 'street grade' valves, springs, retainers and such. They can beat the online $1500 price of the AFR street / comp heads by a fair amount. You might check with local speed shops and see "what's up" in your neighborhood.

OK,, back to work. just my 2¢ nd hope it helps some

[geezer#99]

Thanks for that Marv!

One more thing to consider on head choices is whether they are straight or angled plugs. You'll likely have difficulty finding headers for angle plugs to fit a truck chassis so get some straight plugs heads.

[Marv D]

Good point fellow geezer. I have bade Chevelle angle plug headers fit bit there is a LOT of cutting and grinding on the frame. If your handy with a band saw and a welder it's not 'horrible to modify the #6 tube and Hookers 1-5/8" supercomps for Novas and Chevelles will fit 'many' of our truck chassis.

[Captainfab]

Those Sportsman II heads are $836 for Bare castings. The fully assembled heads are $1316. That is a bit over the OP's budget of $1000.

Staying within the $1000 budget, the Promaxx heads are not a bad deal. Plus they have a smaller more street friendly 185cc intake port that will still support more power down the road.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pmx-2169/overview/

There are a few variations of the small block heads.

[Nuckingfuts]

Originally Posted by Marv D

I have been swamped with work and family and holidays and just not been around here much,, it's nice to know I'm missed (LoL)

I guess after reading this I'm still not clear what direction your jumping.

If you r convinced to go Vortec,, then only suggestion is buy a set of NEW GM / USA castings,, not any fleabay rebuilt import junk... but that's just my opinion. (just an add here, the aussie imports are a decent casting, the junk I mention is the SE asia imports)

World and Dart both have a iron head in the 170-180cc range that would probably fit here.

The world heads are a tad big, but put a decent set of gears to match tire and equate to about a 3.73 effective gear and I wouldn't sweat the 200cc. The port velocity is fairly good on those heads so low speed throttle response isn't horrible.
They arent a set of $1500 AFR street eliminators, but for around $800 you get what you pay for,, and all of your existing stuff (head bolts, rocker arms ,rocker covers, intake, carb, pushrods,, bla bla bla) ALL work. That is a BIG plus over the vortec craze that IMO is surely NOT the end all of performance the internet has racked them up to be. . (I have 2 Vortec motors right now so I don't say that without Apples and Apples comparison to back it up)


http://www.jegs.com/p/World-Products...46700/10002/-1


It's pretty easy to spend someone elses $$$ but If it were 'me' I'd be exactly where C.L. is with the Brodie 180s, or AFR 180 eliminator,,, BUT aluminum heads brings the need for head bolt set with washers ($110) and undoubetedly shiney new roller rockers ($375) and shiney new cast / fabricated aluminum rocker covers ($125 - 400), and. and. and .. and this slippery slope kicks the budget out the window in a big@$$ hurry.



The ONE thing to keep in mind with this is,, SBC parts are not getting any cheaper. If you buy the boy something he can GROW IN TO, as the need for faster faster faster demands,, your giving the gift that keeps on giving. When 370-425 isn't enough to satisfy his addiction,,, bump compresson and step into a roller cam and hes kocking on 500+HP without having to buy new heads.

One thing to maybe check in to... My machine shop is buying bare castings from AFR / Brodix/ Promax etc and filling them with decent 'street grade' valves, springs, retainers and such. They can beat the online $1500 price of the AFR street / comp heads by a fair amount. You might check with local speed shops and see "what's up" in your neighborhood.

OK,, back to work. just my 2¢ nd hope it helps some

Lots of great feedback, thanks Marv for weighing in!
I'm definitely not hung up the vortec thing so I'm taking all suggestions into consideration for sure.

The previous owner installed this cam which I'm led to believe is too much cam if my intentions are to shoot for a 9.5:1 SCR and use iron heads. I'm not sure what route makes more sense, stick with the current cam and get the best heads I can to achieve the target SCR, or hold off on heads and build a better foundation with a roller rocker/cam that has 212 intake duration. It's a chicken or the egg question.

I'll look into the World head suggestion as well as some local shop input that you mentioned. Either way good stuff thanks!

[Nuckingfuts]

Call me crazy if this sounds like a foolish idea:

After figuring in new heads, along with regearing rear end, and new 10" TC to round out the initial build I'll be in it about $2k when all is said and done.

I found a guy down in SoCal with a 2003 5.3L (LM7) w & 4l60e trans complete with ECM, wiring harness, throttle body & and pedal assm. (so basically a complete change over) for $1500

I can get my head around the mechanical stuff like motor mounts and relocating cross members, it's the electronics I haven't a clue about. It seems there's enough resources these days to help bridge the gap so I'm super interested in this route. Dollar for dollar spent, I'm thinking we change heading and roll the dice on the LM7 swap.

I really need to hear from you guys on this one. Thoughts?

[geezer#99]

THere is no free lunch!!
That 1500 will escalate to 2500 by the time you're done.

[Nuckingfuts]

Originally Posted by geezer#99

THere is no free lunch!!
That 1500 will escalate to 2500 by the time you're done.

Please elaborate if you could.

[Captainfab]

Added costs will be in the fuel system, engine harness and a little in the cooling system.

You will need an electric fuel pump, either external or internal, a good bit of plumbing and the electrical for the pump. An internal pump will mean a different fuel tank.

The engine harness cost will depend on whether you modify the original harness yourself or pay to have it done. Another option is a new aftermarket harness. Plus you will have to have the PCM reflashed. Then when it is all done and running it will likely need to be tuned.

You will need a different radiator for a LS engine as well as electric fans.

It all adds up.

[geezer#99]

It always does after the initial outlay.
Headers.
Intake.
Maybe new cam.
Radiator.
Wiring.
Brackets for alt, a/c or p/s.
Speedometer set up.
Etc, etc!!

Give you an example.
Years ago I had a smallblock. 8.5 to 1 targetmaster chevy crate engine. I priced out a small blower set up. Would be about 3000 bucks all in. Decided that wasn't in the budget so went with a building up the motor I had. New aluminum heads, bigger headers, bigger cam, better higher rpm intake, bigger carb (holley 3310), thicker rad, bigger exhaust. Over time I exceeded that blower cost by close to a grand. Didn't regret it! That awesome scream when shifting at 7800 rpm was well worth it. Still, blower woulda been nice too!!
So, I've always gone with the double it rule.
If on paper it adds up to 1500 bucks, in practicality it'll be closer to 3 grand by the time you're done.
That's why I say there's no free lunch!!

[Nuckingfuts]

Originally Posted by geezer#99

THere is no free lunch!!
That 1500 will escalate to 2500 by the time you're done.

Honestly I'd be happy if I could complete the swap @ $2500. It's about what I'd need to spend to get this sbc to land where we wanted. It just makes better sense all around.
I figure I could recoup a good chunk when I sell the sbc/th350.

[Nuckingfuts]

Probably could cut my cost down quite a bit with buying a running vehicle, pulling what I need, then parting out the rest to get some back. Thoughts?

Here's a low mile example I'm looking into:
https://inlandempire.craigslist.org/...404630474.html

[MySons68C20]

That looks like a good deal imho. Decide old school or new and just do it!

[Nuckingfuts]

Originally Posted by MySons68C20

That looks like a good deal imho. Decide old school or new and just do it!

Unfortunately this is not an LS1 as the ad states, that's actually a GMC Envoy with an lm4 and I'm not entirely sure which transmission. Bummer.

[Nuckingfuts]

Ok an update is needed. I decided to put the LS swap on the back burner until I can get up to speed on all of the little details and costs, then draw up a plan. I feel rushed with Christmas almost here and I HATE making rushed decisions.

I executed the original game plan and went with the following:

1. Summit Vortec Heads: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-151124
2. Summit Vortec Manifold: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-226018
3. Summit Torque Converter: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-g2702-1
4. Misc gaskets

Now the question I'm trying to answer at this point is which rockers do I need? I've read up on oem vortec heads requiring self aligning rockers (SARA) for gen I sbc 350 applications and these Summit heads, under the Q&A state they need self aligning rocker arms. But with that said, I've read that some SARA encounter clearance issues with either the retainers and/or the valve covers so I'm confused as to what works. Remember I have the Comp Cam kit (https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-k12-238-2 )

How do I determine what rockers I need for this set up? Standard or narrow, stamped steel or roller tip??

[Captainfab]

I wouldn't think there would be any clearance issues running self aligning rockers with those springs on the Summit heads. Just stamped steel self aligning rockers should be just fine for what you are building. The narrow versus wide is pertaining to whether you will be using centerbolt valve covers or perimeter bolt valve covers. The centerbolt valve covers require a narrow rocker which I believe the stamped rockers qualify as. That is what was run on the L31 Vortec 350's.

[Nuckingfuts]

Originally Posted by Captainfab

I wouldn't think there would be any clearance issues running self aligning rockers with those springs on the Summit heads. Just stamped steel self aligning rockers should be just fine for what you are building. The narrow versus wide is pertaining to whether you will be using centerbolt valve covers or perimeter bolt valve covers. The centerbolt valve covers require a narrow rocker which I believe the stamped rockers qualify as. That is what was run on the L31 Vortec 350's.

That's pretty much what I'm finding as well. If I had more budget I'd try some roller tip rockers but for now I'm going to try some stamped rockers from summit: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-12495490
Now I'm wondering if standard or tall valve covers are needed. Hmm...

Thank you again for the feedback!

[Captainfab]

Tall valve covers are not needed.

[Nuckingfuts]

So I got the Summit heads delivered this weekend and they look pretty good overall. Do you guys have any advice on anything I should be looking for with regards to QC'ing the heads? Also any prep, cleaning, conditioning of the heads prior to install? Of course I'd love to port/polish but that's beyond my skill set and an entirely different question.

My initial inspection has been looking for any casing defects, cleanliness, etc. I did find shavings at the bottom of the rocker arm stud bores left behind from the tap process. Also I noticed one of the intake walls had some tooling marks (see photo), should I be concerned with this or leave as is?

[chris mc bride]

Already running edelbrock stuff and their heads are pretty good.Have run them on few street rod builds. WIth 4.00 bore there is no reason to go bigger than 2.02 intake/1.60 exhaust.You can go bigger but will need some grinding to unshroud valves. Not sure what chamber options they have,but make sure it will work compression wise with pistons. 10 to 10.5:1 would be max IMO.

As for work to pickup flow.If they don't have 5 angle valvejob that would be my first move.Maybe port match and good to go. just my 2 cent.


Guess I should have read to end and could have saved the typing,oh well needed more practice anyway.LOL