47-59 Original driveline - What to do..

[mikeyptv]

Hey guys- looking for some input here. I scored a stellar deal on a 57 panel truck that had been parked since ‘81. I was really hoping I could get the original 235 going again. But it is stucker than stuck and I’m going to have to swap it.

I just don’t want to send the motor to the metal man. It also has the original dual range hydramatic. Is there a market for this stuff? I’m not trying to make a mint on any of it. I’d just rather somebody get use out of it than go to scrap.

That said, I’ve been looking at a 292 swap, but only if I’d be able to retain the front corner mounts. I know I’d have to do something for the rear, but if I can avoid aftermarket side mounts, I’d prefer the look. Does anyone know if the 292’s have provisions for the front corner mount brackets? If not, I’ll probably SBC or LS it, but mainly I’m looking to see if anyone has an avenue I can upcycle this original equipment. Thanks!

[_Ogre]

love those old panel trucks! post up some pics...
unless you have a good running 292 on hand, you'll have a lot more time and money installing it vs sbc. that's why the sbc is so popular, even with the ford group

[mr48chev]

It all comes down to what you want the truck to be and how you plan to use it.

If you are just going to drive it locally and take it to local shows the 235 and hydromatic = "original" is worth about 10 bubba points.

Still staying with an inline six but wanting a tad more power and the ability to make longer trips at highway speeds a 250 or 292 with a Turbo 350 or overdrive automatic makes sense, Actually the overdrive behind either would let you cruise comfortably at highway speeds with the stock rear axle.

A 4.3 and overdrive out of a late pickup would work too. Not the Bubba factor as many other options but a good driver setup that wouldn't break the bank putting it together and should get reasonable gas mileage.
They came with small blocks in 57 so any size of small block will work or if you want to go modern an LS.

Back in Texas in the mid 70's I had a 57 panel with a 327 that had some serious horsepower for the time. 327 engine, 202 heads, Corvette dual 4 intake, Engle solid lifter cam and 12.5 Jahns pistons. It would hook up and go but got maybe 4 mpg. one of the most fun rigs I ever owned too. I don't reccomend that setup though as someting a lot milder would be a lot better.

Still it is your truck your way that needs to be able to do what you want to do with it.

It sounds like the six has to come out at least for repairs anyhow so I'd pull it out and take it apart and see what it's issues are and if it is prudent to fix it or find it a new home. Out of the cost of your favorite rust soak recipie that doesn't cost anything to do. Plus it works for the "doing the right thing because" deal. Then go from there.

[dsraven]

is the engine stuck due to water got in somehow through intake or open spark plug holes or is it stuck just from sitting? if you want to use that engine or at least tear it down and see what is wrongwith it, start by pulling the plugs and filling the cylinders with auto trans fluid or your favorite penetrating fluid. i use atf for this because it's cheap and is high detergent. put the plugs back in and walk away. leave it for a few days and top up the cylinders, walk away again. after a few of these try turning the flywheel with a prybar on the flywheel ring gear. maybe it moves a little, maybe not. not losing much except some time and bit f fluid. this has worked for me before several times. one of those siezed engines is still driving around 6 yrs later. just resealed the rubber parts and changed a few gaskets. no tear down.

[franken]

There are a couple guys in east Texas that hace on youtube unstuck some engines that were pretty bad.

[chevyguyase]

I have freed up locked up engines with a grease gun. I bore scope the engine and try to figure out which cylinder is causing the problem. make sure the valves are closed on that cylinder, but you can use any good cylinder. Take an old spark plug apart and tap it to accept fittings so you can install a grease zerk. Buy the cheapest grease you can find and fill the cylinder with grease thru the spark plug hole.

[mikeyptv]

Originally Posted by dsraven

is the engine stuck due to water got in somehow through intake or open spark plug holes or is it stuck just from sitting? if you want to use that engine or at least tear it down and see what is wrongwith it, start by pulling the plugs and filling the cylinders with auto trans fluid or your favorite penetrating fluid. i use atf for this because it's cheap and is high detergent. put the plugs back in and walk away. leave it for a few days and top up the cylinders, walk away again. after a few of these try turning the flywheel with a prybar on the flywheel ring gear. maybe it moves a little, maybe not. not losing much except some time and bit f fluid. this has worked for me before several times. one of those siezed engines is still driving around 6 yrs later. just resealed the rubber parts and changed a few gaskets. no tear down.

I believe it’s from water intrusion. I’ve tried the soaking with ATF for a couple weeks, PB blaster for a couple weeks, and even a vinegar/atf mix for a couple weeks. No luck.

I recently caved in and pulled the head. Surface rust in most holes, and I laid a 1/4” puddle of pb blaster on each. A couple days later, all are still holding at least some. Checking back there today, about a week later.

I’m close to giving up on this engine. Considering a vortec 4200 I-6. I just wish somebody had a use for this frozen motor or the 4 speed auto.

[dsraven]

cool idea there chevyguyase

[mikeyptv]

Originally Posted by chevyguyase

I have freed up locked up engines with a grease gun. I bore scope the engine and try to figure out which cylinder is causing the problem. make sure the valves are closed on that cylinder, but you can use any good cylinder. Take an old spark plug apart and tap it to accept fittings so you can install a grease zerk. Buy the cheapest grease you can find and fill the cylinder with grease thru the spark plug hole.

How does that work? Seem like a cylinder full of grease would just sit there and not penetrate without the ability to rotate the motor?

[dsraven]

you could pull the pan and see what the bottom end looks like. then, if you really want to increase the amount of parts you need to store, you could complete the teardown by undoing the rod bolts, protect the crank journals and use a block of hardwood on the unsderside of the pistons to knock them out.
sometimes a bit of blow torch heat on the piston, from the top side, and then let them cool, will expand/retract the piston enough to them free up so they can be knocked out. if it's stuck that bad it will likely have marks on the cyl walls and need some work so if you're gonna take it apart you should plan on a complete rebuild. otherwise it is just to satisfy curiousity and then you have a truck load of parts to do something with.
as a side note, I have a 4.2l atlas engine (vortec from an 04 envoy) in a 57 truck. not on the road as it is a project when I have time, the engine seems to be longer than the stock 235 was. not a lot of room between the rad and fan. it is a frame swap with the envoy 4x4 frame under it and I used the envoy firewall and floor so a lot of stuff going on there. I made a new rad support to allow the rad to sit further forward but then the grille and hood latch are affected. make sure you do the dimensional checks before you pull the trigger on anything. I used the envoy because I got the whole vehicle at an insurance lot for cheap. you need the wiring and the computer to run the engine so that may be the way to go with any engine you decide to use.

[dsraven]

the grease works by using the hydraulic force to push the piston down in the cylinder. the grease gun becomes the hydraulic pump.

[dsraven]

the grease doesn't compress and is likely too thick to squeeze out past the piston so it pushes the piston down in the bore as the gun is pumped OR it pushes the head off the block. not much chance of that so it would rather push the piston down as it's easier.

[leegreen]

or the pressure of the grease breaks the stuck ring/piston. That is often the outcome by the time you get to the brute force methods.

I assume the oil is drained. Put a clean drain pan under the drain hole. Fill each cylinder with evapo-rust or some similar thing, even molasses or vinegar although they are slower. catch the runoff and top up each cylinder with it, repeat for a few days. This will remove at least some of the rust.

give each piston a sharp rap with a block of wood and a hammer from time to time

As it cleans up, check the cylinders for pitting, depth of ridge and decide how much effort it is worth.

The vortec 5 cylinder from a Colorado would be shorter.
A dirt cheap 2.2 from S10 has as much power as the earlier 235s and would be an easy fit, with s10 OD trans you even get some highway ability.

[chevyguyase]

I should have given more details. You are using hydraulic pressure of the grease gun to force the piston down. A hand grease gun will put out 4000 psi, an air powered gun will put out 15,000 psi. I even use this method to push caliper pistons out of brake calipers. We tightened the tank tracks on tanks in the army with a hand grease gun. You can use it for a lot of things. Mechanics have been doing this forever. I can't take credit for it. I'm just a old mechanic. here's a video.
https://youtu.be/TbOS8sXI8Jg

[mikeyptv]

Originally Posted by chevyguyase

I should have given more details. You are using hydraulic pressure of the grease gun to force the piston down. A hand grease gun will put out 4000 psi, an air powered gun will put out 15,000 psi. I even use this method to push caliper pistons out of brake calipers. We tightened the tank tracks on tanks in the army with a hand grease gun. You can use it for a lot of things. Mechanics have been doing this forever. I can't take credit for it. I'm just a old mechanic. here's a video.
https://youtu.be/TbOS8sXI8Jg

Incredible! I might have to put the head back on just to give that a try!

[mikeyptv]

Originally Posted by dsraven

you could pull the pan and see what the bottom end looks like. then, if you really want to increase the amount of parts you need to store, you could complete the teardown by undoing the rod bolts, protect the crank journals and use a block of hardwood on the unsderside of the pistons to knock them out.
sometimes a bit of blow torch heat on the piston, from the top side, and then let them cool, will expand/retract the piston enough to them free up so they can be knocked out. if it's stuck that bad it will likely have marks on the cyl walls and need some work so if you're gonna take it apart you should plan on a complete rebuild. otherwise it is just to satisfy curiousity and then you have a truck load of parts to do something with.
as a side note, I have a 4.2l atlas engine (vortec from an 04 envoy) in a 57 truck. not on the road as it is a project when I have time, the engine seems to be longer than the stock 235 was. not a lot of room between the rad and fan. it is a frame swap with the envoy 4x4 frame under it and I used the envoy firewall and floor so a lot of stuff going on there. I made a new rad support to allow the rad to sit further forward but then the grille and hood latch are affected. make sure you do the dimensional checks before you pull the trigger on anything. I used the envoy because I got the whole vehicle at an insurance lot for cheap. you need the wiring and the computer to run the engine so that may be the way to go with any engine you decide to use.

I’ve actually considered doing similar.. how does that wheel base line up for you? And was the firewall and trans tunnel swap all to accommodate length?

[leegreen]

if you want to do the grease gun thing, keep in mind that the crank has no leverage against a piston stuck close to TDC or BDC, so putting ~12k lbs force onto another piston that does want move could bend the crank or rods.

Of course at some point this becomes a contest between man and machine and the machine has to lose in the end.

[dsraven]

post 16
my envoy frame swap is the envoy UTV which is loong. I needed a long wheelbase because of the extra cab I am doing. I wanted the extra cab to accomodate high back buckets with integral seat belts and not be at a straight up and down angle for the seat back. the cab got put on the frame where it needed to be in order to have the front tires fit the front wheel openings properly for my chosen ride height. the box is a custom highbrid build so the fenders got put on where they needed to be
my cab was pretty far gone from the lower hnges down so I did hinge pillars, steps, rockers cab mounts and a home built flat firewall. then I was about to start on a new floor with it's own subframe when my nephew dropped off his envoy for some work. while I was working on it I thought that I could make an envoy frame fit under my old truck. I got out the tape and was even more convinced. i bought an envoy at an insurance auction and used the frame, running gear, driveline, firewall and floor. of course the seats, console, carpet etc. it has a 4.2L inline 6 with auto O/D and 4x4. big disc brakes all around, strut style front suspension, 4 link rear suspension, coils out back but the option for factory air bags is there already, built in fuel tank with pump, exhaust system, 3.73 gears with posi, floor shifter, hand style park brake in console, I could go on but you get the drift why I converted. I was at the point of having to buy a lot of the stuff that came with the envoy. yes, it's only an inline 6. no, I will not be out roasting tires or drag racing. I just want the old truck to look old but different and ride like a newer truck with more creature comforts.
there is a fella on here that put a panel on a trailblazer, same as an envoy. some will say it is a little crudely assembled but that is a personal opinion and the fella did it the way he wanted it and he is driving it so you will have to make your own decision if you check out the link
here is the link
https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/...d.php?t=823156

sorry for the long winded reply but you asked so.......

[dsraven]

oh yeah, putting your truck on a donor frame will lower the assessed value. it kinda makes me chuckle a little after seeing some builds where the rear of the frame is chopped off behind the cab and a big C notch installed. the front of the frame is chopped off ahead of the cab and a subframe from a newer car is welded on. really the only section of frame that is still stock is the part where the cab sits and that could have been replaced pretty easily when the c notch was done so that the frame isn't a welded together 3 piece thing. a donor frame lessens the value but what about the other styles? do they also lessen the value? just curious. comments anybody?

[mr48chev]

Originally Posted by chevyguyase

I have freed up locked up engines with a grease gun. I bore scope the engine and try to figure out which cylinder is causing the problem. make sure the valves are closed on that cylinder, but you can use any good cylinder. Take an old spark plug apart and tap it to accept fittings so you can install a grease zerk. Buy the cheapest grease you can find and fill the cylinder with grease thru the spark plug hole.

In all my 61 years of auto mechanics starting in 1962 as an autos shop student, being a professional mechanic for a number of years and teaching for 13 years I have never heard that one before. An engine isnd't very stuck if you can get away with that.

Back to this particular 235. The best approach is still to soak it down with what ever stuck engine rust soak concoction you have the most faith in. Then take it as far apart as you can without damaging anything. That can include taking the rod caps and main caps off while the block sits upside down and removing the crank. Use a ridge reamer to cut the ridges out of the cylinders if it has ridges and scotchbrite the cylinders that are exposed above the pistons and try to get the pistons to move just a bit one way or the other. At this point the pistons are pretty well sacrficial as most likely the block will have to be bored to clean up the rust. Do not beat on or use force on the rods, They are not sacraficial and i have seen a lot of damaged rods where some beat on the rod trying to push the piston out. I haven't worked on a 235 for over 30 years but am pretty sure that the pistons have to come out the top and will get wedged in the block if you try to push them out the bottom.

As far as Dsraven's comment on frame swaps if you watch the Barrett-Jackon or Mecom Auctions during prime time on Friday or Saturday night try and remember how many trucks crossed the block with donor vehicle frame swaps that the talking heads raved about and pointed out all the features of the frame swap. Then go back page by page in their auction catalogs and see how many frame swap trucks they even let in. The guy in Florida who has probably done more AD truck on 88 and up Chevy truck donor chassis usually sells his ready to drive painted and freshly upholstered AD trucks with new glass for under 30K in drive away and go to a show condition. They are great drivers but not high dollar trucks.

Camaro subframe swaps are obsolete old tech I did one in 1980 and it drove great but there are just better ways now. Plus the supply of subframes has pretty well dried up and what we used to get for 100 is now 500 and up. Higher in some areas where the Camaro brigade has been hunting them to rebuild the cars that they drag home to rebuild.

Still once again we are getting off track rather than helping Mikeypvt figure out how to best get his 235 apart, inspect it and decide what he is going to do with it. Right now that comes down to a yes/no of figuring out if it is salvageable and rebuildable. That is no matter who actually rebuilds and uses it.

[dsraven]

I usually try the at soak and a prybar on the ring gear. If that doesnt work the engine will likely need a bore job anyway so decide if you wanna spend the bucks before you make an assembled engine into a bunch of storage boxes. If I decide to take apart a stuck engine I usually take the rods off, crank out and use a piece of hardwood hockey stick to pound the pistons out the top. Of course a ridge ream would be needed on some. Like the earlier post says, the pistons are sacrificial. I have had some break the pistons before the rust let's them go. You gotta really want that engine at this point. Numbers match build or whatever.

[mr48chev]

Originally Posted by dsraven

You gotta really want that engine at this point. Numbers match build or whatever.

He did bring up a point. If I wasn't planning on keeping the six I wouldn't take it much further apart than pulling the head. 235 heads may have as much value by themselves as the complete engine in some areas.

One thing though, What serial number is on the title as the "vin"? a lot of states used the engine number up to the mid 50's and if they have that number on the title you cannot let that block out of your possession until you take the truck in with the new enigne in it and have it inspected to get an engine change notation on the title and you need the old block with serial number to accomplish that. I've got one out here with no engine and the engine number is the vin. It's a 1985 Oregon title so it may be a challenge to just do a title change and put it in my name without it being inspected.

[MJN]

Not sure how bad yours is but I was in a similar situation with mine. This was cylinder #1 and after inspection it got sleeved due to pitting in the walls and all cylinders then bored .030" over. I soaked this one for weeks with no luck and ended up using brute force to get it out, broke the piston in the process. Make sure you get the cylinder head checked for cracks, they are prone to cracking in between the valves and I ended up scrapping two heads in search of a good one. Its taken some time but its coming together and yours will too.

[michael bustamante]

i might still have the running 235 out of my 56 i used to have. ill look and see if youre inersted

[mikeyptv]

Originally Posted by michael bustamante

i might still have the running 235 out of my 56 i used to have. ill look and see if youre inersted

I'd be interested... The simplest path forward is my favorite path forward here. A direct swap 235 would great, even if it means getting the trans rebuilt, or adapting to a 200/700r4.

When it comes down to it, I'm not attached enough to a low power original motor to invest time or money into making this one work. Which then begs the ultimate question...

Is there any value to any of it? And does anyone here want it?

-MP