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Old 07-17-2018, 10:03 PM   #1
Steven R
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questions about working with bondo and pin holes?

So after doing some bondo work and then using clean compressed air to blow it clear, I have been noticing alot of pin holes.

My main question is what to do about them, or what can I do?

Here is some background.



product is evercoat gold lite weight filler

This happens to be the bulk head of the truck box, large flat panel.
the panel at one point had something in the truck box slam into it and cause a 3 inch dent near the very bottom. A very large and long dent.

-dent was removed and hammered as flat as possible with a hammer and dolly. I used a 36 inch long straight edge to use as a go no go.

-all paint was removed down to bare metal.

- then rust was treated, and then re sanded as per TDS for the paint

- panel was cleaned with final wipe, and the wiped off, let dry and then used a tack rag was used to finish prep for painting.

- epoxy primed 2 good coats and then let dry for 8 days (cure time as per tds is 7-10 days)

-I block sanded it with 80 grit to see the very highs and mark all the low's

- highs where hammered and dolled. did what I could with the low's.

- all places where there was a low I remove paint to bear metal as noted with the fillers TDS, feathering the edges with 120 as that all I had on hand.

-I cleaned the surface to insure a dust free surface, with clean air and alcohol with a lint free wipes.

- I mixed the filler doing my best not to add any air to the mix.(I have literally watch 40 videos on this tropic of mixing and applying.)

- I spread the bondo on with a very light pressure to frist wet the area a little and then basically wiped it off with a very hard pressure to then force the bondo into all the little nooks and sanding scratches.

- I then spread the bondo with firm pressure to fill the area making sure to put on more than would be needed in width and height. making sure to stop messing with it the moment I started to notice it kicking and setting off.

-after I clean my tools I came back with a rasp and took down the extreme highs.

- I then let it set up. no matter what let it sit for at least 1 hour min (temp was about 73 to 76, and humidly was about 60 to 80 percent during the whole process including drying time)

then after blocking down with 80 grit and blowing clean I and finding alot of pin holes.

My plan was to at this point paint it with 3 or 5 coats of high build primer and then block it down and sand to a 320 grit finish. Fill any remaining areas with a glazing putty blocking and sanding as needed to finish to a 320 Then sealer prime before base and clear ect.

So I am at the point now with this panel with bondo on it it 98 percent straight and level but has pin holes, and is sanded to 120 on all painted areas and 80 on the bondo areas. At this point do I glaze over the bondo areas with evercoat glazing putty and sand it all to 120, or prime with high build then putty glaze, or to I remove all the bondo and start over, and if so what do I change with my process?
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Old 07-18-2018, 08:11 AM   #2
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Re: questions about working with bondo and pin holes?

Evercoat Metalglaze is designed to fill those pinholes and your sand scratches. Apply a very very thin coat and sand with 180, not 120.

No more than two coats of high build should be needed.

Finish bondo with 120.

No glaze putty or sealer after high build should be needed or applied.

Talk to Guy, he will walk you through the steps and help get you the TDS that provide the technical data needed to use the products correctly.
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Old 07-18-2018, 09:52 AM   #3
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Re: questions about working with bondo and pin holes?

Foot Stomper's advise will get you back on an even keel. In future, you might consider this-

In my limited experience, most of my pinhole problems are caused by overworking the filler while mixing or applying. Mostly applying.

If I find that I'm still working the filler and it starts to show signs of hardening, I always have pinholes.

As maligned as repairs that overuse bondo, there's really a technique for using it that requires a little skill to get a 'one and done' application. Here's a few things I do that might help next time-

- Mix up more than you think you'll need. I mix the filler in a figure-eight motion and don't lift the spreader off the board while I mix to keep air pockets to a minimum.

- Put the entire batch of mixed bondo on the panel - don't take a spreader-full at a time of bondo off the mixing board - do it all at once

- With as few strokes of the plastic spreader and making the strokes as long possible, spread the bondo. Overfilling with filler is ok, but you can't underfill, and if you do you might as well start over.

- Block the panel with 80 grit. Don't cheap out with the sandpaper - change it often. You want a lot of 'bite' from the paper.

-Shoot a little guide coat after you've roughed it in, and if you have any low spots, recoat the entire panel with bondo - you can't effectively 'spot' repair bondo without introducing waves in the panel's filler.

- You can 'tune' the viscosity of the Evercoat filler with a liquid resin called Evercoat Honey. Adding some Honey to the mix will let you smooth out the filler with the least number of strokes. Works very well on large, low crown panels where you're trying to put a thin even coat of filler. I like adding resin to the mix rather than a separate products as a final filler because the filler has a consistent hardness and sands more even for me.

- The primary cause of overworking the filler once it is on the panel is a dirty spreader or a spreader where the edge is not perfect. I wipe the spreader's edge immediately with a dry rag after I've spread the filler and peel off the cured filler on the spreader before the next load. I change spreaders often to keep a good edge, but you can burnish the edge to smooth it by rubbing it on your jeans.

- Despite all these precautions, you will still end up with a pinhole or two. I mix a very small batch of filler with a dab of Honey and use a straight edge razor to apply the filler to the pinhole.

Hope this helps a little
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Old 07-18-2018, 10:20 AM   #4
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Re: questions about working with bondo and pin holes?

Here at the basics.

I have to say, the way filler is mixed with the hardener can have a BIG affect on pin holes, "whipping" air into the filler by stirring the hardener into it can give you a lot of problems. This just came up at work recently. I have ZERO pin holes when I do bondo work, I know it's possible. Well there is a guy at the shop whom I taught filler work years ago, he seems to drift and do what he wants with everything taught to him and often goes in the wrong direction. Because of this, I have never gotten in a fist fight with him after seeing he isn't doing as I taught him, and he applies filler over and over where it shouldn't have to be done. Well just last week he had something sent back by the painters because of pin holes and I told him there is no reason, NO REASON to EVER have pin holes, and he said he thinks it may be the way he stirs it. I want over had him mix up a little and sure enough he was WHIPPING air into the filler! You need to PRESS the hardener into the bondo, no whip it in. Using a metal putty knife and a plastic spreader is how I do it. I use the plastic spreader to get the bondo off the putty knife, and the putty knife to get the bondo off the spreader, and using them both to get under the bondo taking it off the mixing board just to press it down again, going back and forth with my left hand and my right hand both with a tool in them pressing the filler over and over down onto the mixing board.

I need to shoot a video, anyway, here are the "basics".

"Basics of Basics" Body filler
By Brian Martin

What ever tools you use the trick is to not add the last "skim coat' till you KNOW that it is all you need. Don't try to block out that first coat, just use it as a base for the LAST skim coat.

I was taught this procedure after doing bodywork for a number of years and it really works well:

Just apply a nice coat of filler (what ever brand, whatever style, we will put that aside right now). Cut that coat NOT to make it perfect, but to get the basic shape and filling you need as a base for the skim coat. You can cut it with 36 40 or 80 depending on how big the area you are working is. In other words, if you can cut it fast with only 80 then do it. But I would say that this would be limited to an application that is no larger than about 8 inches.

If you happen to have a few high spots, see if you can tap them down.

If you have a few low spots add a bit more filler to ONLY those spots.

Re-cut these last low spots you have just filled with the same grit you have been using (most likely 36).

If you now have a surface that ONE skim coat will fill, then apply it. If you don't work with it a bit more, but NEVER add a little here or there and think you will finish it without a skim coat.

If you have a surface that is very close with only a few VERY MINOR low spots like poor feathering onto the metal, poor transitions from one application of filler to another, or from the metal that is "poking" up here and there you can do the LAST skim coat.

This skim coat is very important, you want it to extend over the COMPLETE area, this is well past the damage you have been working. Maybe as much as 3 inches past the plastic that you have applied to "rough" it out.

This skim coat can be regular filler or a polyester glaze like "Icing" or "Polyester glazing putty", that is your choice, I use both depending on the size of the area being worked. Do not use anything that doesn’t mix with a hardener. NO, “Spot putty” in a tube, only polyester putties or fillers. If it uses a hardener, it cures to a hard film. The “spot putties” stay soft and can become even softer when the solvent from the primer coats it.

You now run a block, long board, or hog even over this skim coat with a little bit coarser paper than you plan on finishing with to cut off the resin that has surfaced in the filler. I usually just use the 36 or 40 or whatever I have been on the "rough" work. BUT take CAUTION not to cut much off, you want to JUST take the very top, don't really sand AT ALL.

Now finish sanding with your longboard or block or hog or whatever using the finer paper like 80 on a large area or 120 on that small 8" sized area. Block it out to perfection with a nice feather edge to the surrounding metal.

I can't stress enough, the trick is to know when just ONE LAST skim coat will do the job. And apply it COMPLETELY over the surface. If you only one little low spot in the middle, DON'T just do it, skim the ENTIRE thing. You HAVE to have one LAST skim coat over the ENTIRE thing every time. If you get in the habit of this you will do it over and over on every dent you repair and find that you can do just about any dent with just two applications.

As you sand the filler let the board or block you are using run over the surrounding metal. If you only work on the filler you will sand it too low. You need to keep it as high as the surrounding metal, so use the metal as sort of a straight edge that you run the block or board off of.

Don’t worry if you cut through this skim coat here and there. In fact, you WILL most likely cut through. The point of that "LAST SKIM COAT" is that after you add it, you don't add ANY MORE filler. That "LAST SKIM COAT" is just that the LAST filler you add. If you hit a little filler below, or metal, that is normal and fine. The only thing you are looking for at that point is if the panel is FLAT. The filler skim coat is serving no other purpose than to finish you filler work, it is not a "sealer" or anything like that.

You can add fiberglass resin (“A” coat if you have a choice) adding the resin was exactly how I learned from the great Emery Robinson (my personal hero in the auto body world). But remember there was no products like polyester putties back then. When you add resin, that resin comes to the top of the film of filler. It is then something you have to deal with. The whole purpose of the SKIM COAT is to put a layer of filler over the top that is easy to block out with as little effort as possible. You want to be able to concentrate on making the panel FLAT not fighting with gummy resin, sand scratches and the like.

So the polyester putty though expensive is what I use.

How is this for an idea, a co-worker of mine showed me this very obvious tip.

Add pour-able polyester putty to the regular filler! What an idea! LOL A little pour-able squirted into the "bondo" really thins it out nicely.

The "LAST SKIM COAT" should be left to cure a good long time. Where you may jump on filler and sand it as soon as it is hard, the skim coat should be GOOD AND CURED for an hour or more. If you can of course, in the production shop you may not be able to wait that long. The benefits of the procedure will not be diminished.

A little added note, I have found that I don’t use 36 or 40 grit at all anymore. I went to work at a shop that didn’t use the coarser grits so I had to learn not to also. I have found that using just the 80 and then finishing the Skim coat in 120 or 180 works great, even on large panels.

At this shop it was the first time that I wasn’t doing my own primer work. This meant that I couldn’t “cheat” with a lot of primer and blocking the body work “one more time”. I found that I had to get the work PERFECT, then give it to the painter. I did this in an interesting way, I look at the last skim coat as even a more “final” step. I now look it as “primer”. You see I have used polyester primer, which is like spraying “bondo”. They are both polyester resin based and act and sand very much the same. So, I figured why not just “spread out my primer” as the skim coat! It has worked GREAT, the painter jokingly says, “do you think I’ll need to prime this or just paint it?” I tell him, “Just clear it, it’s a shame to hide that work under primer”.

This method has worked great for me, it’s more of a state of mind than a procedure.

And don’t be afraid to buy the best sand paper and use a lot of it, the cost of the paper will be nothing next to the time and muscles saved. Find the paint store in town that services the PROS the Body shops in town, that is were you will get the right stuff and the right info.

****************************************************************************

Additional Info.

Plastic filler refresher.
I thought that a little refresher on the basics of plastic filler was due.
Yesterday I did two small plastic filler jobs that I thought I would share with you. The procedure I lay out in the “Basics of Basics” for plastic filler is pretty clear, I just thought that a couple of real life repairs might be of help. I also wanted to walk through a repair when things didn’t go perfect. How you get out of trouble is almost as important (some will argue more important) than keeping out of trouble to begin with. The first repair was a small 18x12 inch dent in a door of a Hyundai. I don’t think I have to tell you, the metal is very thin on this car which poses unique problems. I have pretty good access from behind with the trim panel removed to push it out. It did need some shrinking (I used my stud welder with a shrinking tip). The metal was pretty close and I figured one filler coat with “regular” filler and a skim coat with polyester putty should be about it. I applied the “regular” filler (in this case Evercoats Rage Gold). I roughed it into shape using my 8” orbital sander with 80 grit. The panel was ready for my skim coat when I realized it had a problem spot. There was a 5” round area that was flexing. This is a common problem with stretched metal. It was straight (or close to it) when “relaxed” but when pressure was applied while sanding it would flex down. So, the pressure flexed it down and sanded it “flat” WHILE it was flexed. The panel then came up to it’s relaxed state and the filler that is on the area would then be high! This is a common problem with beginners, they don’t notice the panel is flexing and block and block and wonder why the panel is not flat.
I had to shrink it in that area so I sanded off the filler in just the effected area and shrank it with the stud gun until the metal was firm. I knew it was not close enough for my skim coat so I applied a thin coat of Rage, just on that one 5” round spot. The rest of the filler stayed as it was, sanded with 80 grit. When I sanded the spot I found that I had not put enough filler on it. There were a few “shiny craters” showing low areas. Now, it was pretty close and a skim coat “may” have taken care of it. But I don’t like “may haves” I like to KNOW when I apply the skim coat THAT is it. I went ahead and applied one more coat of Rage. I sanded it and it was done. NOW at that point I KNEW it was ready for the skim coat. I applied it and it was then sanded to perfection. If I had applied that skim coat too soon and found low spots not filled, I would have had to COMPLETELY skim coat it again, as shown in the next job. It was a mistake, I should have had the metal ready for filler and it would have been done earlier. But such is life. The other repair was on a quarter panel of a 2002 Ford Focus. It was a crease requiring filler in an area about 22x16 inches. As in the “Basics of Basics” you need to give the dent the respect it deserves. The actual damage before the repair was only about 18x6 inches. The paint was stripped out to about 24x18 inches, you need to be sure you are feathering out the filler unto undamaged metal. After pulling the dent (with an Eagle II electric dent puller, neat tool) I applied the filler coat with “regular” filler. I shaped it out rough with 80 grit just getting the body line that ran thru it close. No super detail, I only wanted the line to “be there” and would fine tune it with the skim coat. After applying my skim coat of polyester putty (Evercoat's “Glaze coat”) I blocked it out. I had two areas that were close, but not good enough. One was a tad low, the other had a high spot of metal from the puller poking up. I couldn’t get the high spot to go down with gentle tapping with the body hammer. If I could have done so, and gotten behind the low spot to tap it out I could have saved it. But that was not in the cards. I went ahead and tapped it down with a punch and hammer (to isolate the force) and skim coated the whole thing again. These areas were just four or six square inches in size but I know that feathering a little polyester putty into the surrounding very thin putty would likely be very difficult at best. I skimmed the entire panel. That’s right, the whole thing again. It is a “shell” of polyester putty. Very easy to block, no feather into existing filler. It is just like a primer over the area and much easier to work with. Even though it is more sanding, it is much easier. Again, a mistake necessitated the 2nd skim coat. But mistakes happen and if I would have tried to repair it without another FULL skim coat, it is likely I would have spent even more time to fix it.

Cut your losses and skim it again, but don’t plan on anything less than a skim coat to finish the job.
I want to say there are times when a tiny amount of polyester putty could be applied to pin holes or other VERY tiny imperfections without skim coating the whole thing. But these should be VERY little imperfections.
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Old 07-20-2018, 11:57 AM   #5
Steven R
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Re: questions about working with bondo and pin holes?

Martin, If you ever get to making a video about this I truly would love to watch it. Right form the opening of the can of bondo to the final spreading of the mix, no need to edit or nothing just real time. I think I understand how you are mixing your bondo and after trying it I need alot more practice as the board just seams to move all over the place, its a dancing art I have not mastered "yet".

I have put into practice alot of your notes as above, but am still getting alot of pin holes. One tip that has helped is stopping messing with it sooner then at the kick point. Placing even more then I think I will need in height and width is helping to eliminate 3 and 4 th attempts before getting to the last skim coat. I have not got it down to 1 rough coat and a final coat but am making less attempt's at filling the lows for the most part. This leads me to a question: After I believe that I am at the point of ONE last skim coat will get it right and level. Do I do that last skim coat with the same bondo? When I do I still am left with pin holes, which for me would still need to then use glaze putty to fill over right. I am currently trying it in this order but am left with basically having to skim coat the whole peace a 2nd time with glaze putty as I am scared that I will miss pin holes. Which Leads me to my next question after you skim the whole peace and then start blocking it down, in the large areas that did not need any filler work, but now you have skimmed the whole piece do you then sand down until to see the paint below or just until the guide coat shows that you have remove all scratches? leaving a thin layer of bondo over the entire part.
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Old 07-20-2018, 04:09 PM   #6
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Re: questions about working with bondo and pin holes?

You should not be worrying about scratches in the 80 grit - you take care of those later.

Sand uniformly with 80 until you just start to expose a little metal then stop. (you shouldn't be applying bondo over paint, it wants to adhere to bare metal or itself) If you have any low spots, recoat the entire panel and sand it again. Keep doing this till there is no low spots and there is just a hint of metal showing through.

Guidecoat it again.

Sand with 180 to remove the sand scratches you put in with the 80


Apply Featherfill or some other high build primer, guidecoat and sand with 180 until there are no low spots showing. If you have bare metal and low spots, you need another coat of polyester primer. Keep doing this until there is no low spots and maybe just a hint of metal showing through.

Prime and wet sand with 400 or whatever grit your topcoat calls for
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Old 07-21-2018, 06:20 PM   #7
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Re: questions about working with bondo and pin holes?

If you apply the filler like your icing a cake, you will have far more pin holes in than you would if you pressed it onto the panel firmly. Apply as much pressure as you can.

When mixing in the hardener, be sure to squeeze the filler out on the mixing board in an attempt to squeeze out as much air as you can.

Don't be gentle with it, squeeze the crap out of it!
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Old 07-22-2018, 03:14 PM   #8
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Re: questions about working with bondo and pin holes?

Just an Update

I have tried with every effort not to ad any air bubbles while mixing and pressing it as hard as my finders and press the metal spreader and pushing the hardener into the putty. After applying it to the panels and again pressing it into the panel with more pressure than I have in the past attempts, I have reduced the number of pin holes, but still I think I have way to many. So I got some evercoat rage to see if this would help me. The Auto body supplier store I deal with, Guys , Said I that I may not notice a difference but I thought I would try anyway, As I knew I would need more filler then one can would cover with how much I have been wasting with this learning curve. With those new practices, I applied a skim coat over the whole panel, after sanding I only found 10 pin holes over the top 2/3 of the door panel. Very pleased with this as it is a vast improvement form what results I was getting with the evercoat gold, I still think the issue is centrally Technic and not the product. But with such a improvement for me and my skill set I am much more happy and confident with the results.


Thanks to all who have helped and continue to spent there time dealing with newbies. I really thank you alot for taking time in your day to share your skills and years of knowledge and pass them on to the next guy.
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Old 07-22-2018, 06:08 PM   #9
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Re: questions about working with bondo and pin holes?

Good work Steve! You've got it!

There will always be some pinholes but sounds like you have it figured out.
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Old 07-23-2018, 12:25 PM   #10
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Re: questions about working with bondo and pin holes?

I saw a video of some great tips and such, in the video the guy use a pump up spray bottle to wet the panel after the filler was dry and sanded smooth so that he could use the strip lights over head to see what the panel might look like when painted, But he does not mention what was in the spray bottle.
What might be in the bottle? I am sure that what ever it is, it cant be water, or a gun wash as that would then be bad. ant thoughts.

I will try to link the video. I like watching this guys stuff. He is a character that I will say but great info in the videos, I went back and watch alot of the older stuff and found That I think he is worth subbing to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClWF9vo3cZk


right around time mark 38:45
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Old 07-23-2018, 12:40 PM   #11
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Re: questions about working with bondo and pin holes?

Wetting the panel with a wax and grease remover is a good way to see the reflection in your bodywork. Isn't going to work too good over filler until you get some primer on it and you're doing it with 400 grit (or whatever your top coat calls for)

Once you've guide-coated and there's no more low spots and metal is just beginning to show through, your 'go-to' method for determining if the panel is straight should be your fingers and feeling the panel.

MartinSR has a 'basics of basics' on feeling the panel with your hand to detect imperfections. Maybe if he comes wandering through this thread again he'll post it up for you.
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Old 07-23-2018, 09:30 PM   #12
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Re: questions about working with bondo and pin holes?

Thanks for the tip. I have defiantly noticed the before and after of the feeling of the panels with my whole hand. I like the tip I saw in that same video about using you non dominant hand to feel the panel, for me it has worked very well in finding issues. I wanted to use this Technic with the wetting of the panel in a few areas where it drops off with a curve and wanted to see if the curve is still constant with after the hammer and dolly work and then the filler working,
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Old 07-23-2018, 10:31 PM   #13
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Re: questions about working with bondo and pin holes?

It isn't too difficult to feel imperfections on a fairly flat panel. Feeling an imperfection in a high crown can be challenging.
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Old 07-24-2018, 09:51 AM   #14
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Re: questions about working with bondo and pin holes?

"Basics of Basics" How to feel body work.

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=746723

Brian
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Old 08-02-2018, 09:58 PM   #15
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Re: questions about working with bondo and pin holes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
"Basics of Basics" How to feel body work.

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=746723

Brian
Thanks to all, especially Brian, as reading the bondo basics i again have learned more info.
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