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Old 07-31-2018, 01:51 AM   #1
Super_Dave
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OMNI vs. DELTRON Advice

My project truck is finally getting back on track. It's primed and everything that needs paint, is ready. I say "everything that needs paint" because I was able to locate another truck project (PO passed away) that had all new parts - already painted black - that were the exact parts I need to do body work to on mine. . . so all I need to squirt is the cab, front fenders and doors.

The guy I bought the parts from, has a car collection (see my thread) and he and his brother build cars for a hobby. I got them to agree to take my truck and swap parts and do the body and paint for a price I can't mention here.

They emailed me that they are ready to go to paint. They had the paint computer matched off the new parts I bought and sent me a photo of my choices.

1. Omni is $179 a gallon
2. Deltron is $728 a gallon

I need on gallon to finish off the truck. When finished, and for the foreseeable future, the truck will be outside until we either reduce vehicles or move somewhere that I have more room indoors.

I am not well versed in body and paint to make the call on these. I have read that Omni, though less costly, is a "decent" product, especially if you clear coat with a high quality clear.

A handful of opinions have called Omni "junk." Opinions are like bellybuttons; "everybody has one." I'm interested in knowledgeable opinions. A $549 spread gets my attention.

The Omni on the left (JACK BLACK) is what the computer match came up with initially. The Deltron came up as an alternative (Budget vs. Top Line I guess). Will Omni, with a high quality Clear, be a good combination for an outdoor truck, or is Omni crap and am I throwing money down a rat hole?

Sorry for the fuzzy photo. . . attachment was automatically resized. PM me and I can send the image to you if you prefer.
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Old 08-01-2018, 12:07 PM   #2
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Re: OMNI vs. DELTRON Advice

I notice no one has responded to your request. Listen, I am out of the paint business now for 20 years so I didn't want to comment being I don't know what the Deltron and the OMNI is like TODAY, it could be quite different.

But when I was a paint rep OMNI was new on the market, and Deltron was FAR superior then.

But at the same time, I wasn't a PPG rep, I was a Sherwin Williams rep, actually a Martin Senour rep which is a line of S/W paint sold through NAPA parts stores.

Soooooo, unless you get a PPG rep to really give you the lowdown you don't know. I say this because Martin Senour had a "Value line" like OMNI called "MSU" (Martin Senour Urethane) a fleet single stage paint that sold for $100 a sprayable gallon. Yep, every color, three quarts of color and a quarter of hardener, ready to go, $100 (or right about a $100, $96 or $102, I don't remember exactly.)

Ok, so they had the "Value line" MSU and then they had a SS Urethane called "Nitram" (Martin backwards, cute huh!) that sold for $300-600 a sprayable gallon depending on the color. The 30 toners that made those colors went for $200 to $400 a gallon. The MSU had 14 toners that all sold for $85 a gallon no matter what color.

Ok, so they had a "value line" and the high end line ok. I had the color lab in Chicago match a color for me making a formula for a customer with the MSU. When I got the formula I noticed that the toner numbers were scratched out and re-written. The number they scratched out were the HIGH END NUMBERS! WTH! I did some research and found they were exactly the same! The MSU line simply only used 14 of the Nitram 30 toners thus it only had about 1200 color formulas where the high end one had about 13,000. With a little more research over time it was confirmed by people in the company that these two lines were EXACTLY the same product! So you could buy a gallon of ready to spray paint in MSU for $100 or buy it in Nitram for $600, it's your choice! LOLOLOLOL

Damn I love marketing! And this happened over and over when I had that job, relabeling products is VERY common, so damn interesting.

But in the same note, I have witnessed "value lines" being CRAP that needed three times as many coats to cover and that sort of thing, so unless you get REAL info, you don't know if that OMNI will do the job you are after or if you should move up to the Deltron.

All I can say is this, when you talk about the work involved to shoot that truck, when it's all said and done that $550 difference isn't crap. I wouldn't think for a second to spend that extra money! My time is just too valuable.

Brian
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Old 08-01-2018, 12:16 PM   #3
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Re: OMNI vs. DELTRON Advice

MARTINSR,

Yeah, getting any Rep to give you that honest scoop on what they sell so they can feed their families. . . well, we know how that goes.

I was hoping that end-users, pros or DIY'ers, would give me some first hand critiques.

Thanks for the input. It was good info.
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Old 08-01-2018, 01:08 PM   #4
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Re: OMNI vs. DELTRON Advice

Just chatted with the Hillsboro paint supply shop. Here is what they said:

The difference between the Omni and Deltron is more solids for better coverage, so Omni will take more coats. No big deal.

Omni's Plus line has better coverage. Costs $142/Gal more than Omni. Not sure we need that.

The MC270 Omni Clear is a good clear and has limited UV protection and uses MH270 4:1 Hardener.

The DCU2021 Clear has considerably more UV protection and lays out really well during the air drying. Uses DOX61 4:1 Hardener.

Consensus is that the best clear coat the budget can afford, over a value base coat, would be the best combination, as the clear is what not only brings out the color of the base coat, but has to stand up to the environment (sun, rain, etc.)

Since the truck will be outside for the next few years, I think it makes sense to go with the OMNI Jack Black and the DCU2021 Clear.

Total cost would be $678 for everything.
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Old 08-01-2018, 05:55 PM   #5
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Re: OMNI vs. DELTRON Advice

Not the expert by any means, MartinSr has the best advise. I recently bought a gallon of Omni....1st time, same situation don't need a whole gallon .previous DBC gallon of white would reduce x2 very good coverage ...Omni is thinner and will take more coats. Price on the Deltron seems high to me but I have bought most of mine online, nothing here local within 100 miles. Best of luck post some photos .
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Old 08-01-2018, 09:27 PM   #6
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Re: OMNI vs. DELTRON Advice

Ive sprayed many gallons of OMNI in basecoat and in SS. Omni will take more coats to yield the same amount of coverage, sometimes the added product in Omni will cost the same as the DBC.

Omni black is a dirty brown black not as clean deep looking as DBC. Doesn't matter how you tint Omni it will be dirty in appearance.

If you want a good deep black Id look into SPI.

https://www.southernpolyurethanes.com/
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Old 08-01-2018, 10:08 PM   #7
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Re: OMNI vs. DELTRON Advice

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Originally Posted by sevt_chevelle View Post
Ive sprayed many gallons of OMNI in basecoat and in SS. Omni will take more coats to yield the same amount of coverage, sometimes the added product in Omni will cost the same as the DBC.

Omni black is a dirty brown black not as clean deep looking as DBC. Doesn't matter how you tint Omni it will be dirty in appearance.

If you want a good deep black Id look into SPI.

https://www.southernpolyurethanes.com/
So. . . with that being said, and the fact that I am trying to match newly painted parts from a donor truck whose previous owner has passed way, AND that the computer match came up with OMNI JACK BLACK - - - how do I avoid having color match issues with the parts of the truck that need to be painted? Seems like the only way to get a real black is don't spend $678. . . spend $1,300 to paint the doors, fenders and cab.

I wonder how PPG can stay in business selling the OMNI JACK BLACK that is nothing but a dirty brown black.



Here are some photos of the donor truck and the parts I put on mine:
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Old 08-01-2018, 10:34 PM   #8
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Re: OMNI vs. DELTRON Advice

First off, there is no such thing as "black", since the carbon was taken out of it in the late seventies it's an extremely dark brown, blue or red.

You should see the "black" formulas for matching factory paint jobs, they will have 4 or 5 different colors in them! LOLOL

You are asking a lot painting half that truck, you really are, you are asking a lot of that paint to match. But if you are willing to have a little mismatch, it's all good, enjoy it done.

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Old 08-01-2018, 10:45 PM   #9
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Re: OMNI vs. DELTRON Advice

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First off, there is no such thing as "black", since the carbon was taken out of it in the late seventies it's an extremely dark brown, blue or red.

You should see the "black" formulas for matching factory paint jobs, they will have 4 or 5 different colors in them! LOLOL

You are asking a lot painting half that truck, you really are, you are asking a lot of that paint to match. But if you are willing to have a little mismatch, it's all good, enjoy it done.

Brian
Yeah, the red tint make a muddy brown black and blue tints seem to make a "blacker" black. I don't know what tints are used in these two options.

I am beginning to believe that the "savings" of finding new parts already painted was a false economy after all. Two things I hate to waste: TIME and MONEY. Seems both are at play here unless I paint the whole damn truck all over again.

I am thinking just sand the whole thing down and prime the ever-loving-hell out of it and wait until next Spring to paint the whole truck after I accumulate more funds. A mismatched paint job is totally unacceptable. I see that crap all the time on repairs driving all over the place, and it sucks. I think "how stupid and blind did that owner have to be not to see that?"

I refuse to be one of those owners.
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Old 08-02-2018, 01:20 AM   #10
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Re: OMNI vs. DELTRON Advice

im no paint pro but id hate to know I had to match those panels....I would paint the whole truck...
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Old 08-02-2018, 02:34 AM   #11
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Re: OMNI vs. DELTRON Advice

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im no paint pro but id hate to know I had to match those panels....I would paint the whole truck...
Yeah. . . I am there too. Now I have to break it to the guys working on the truck, who were ready to squirt color in two weeks, that we are heading in another direction.

I could see if they have time to hit the painted and cleared panels with some 500 - 600 grit to knock down the clear enough to shoot the whole truck with base coat and then clear the whole thing.

As I understand it, this should take care of the color match issue. . .

If I do that, will I have any issues with the painted & cleared parts of the truck having more coats of base under the scuffed clear, then more base and new clear on top of that. . . when the currently primed areas (fenders, doors and cab) will only have a couple coats of base over gray primer then clear?
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Old 08-02-2018, 10:13 AM   #12
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Re: OMNI vs. DELTRON Advice

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Just chatted with the Hillsboro paint supply shop. Here is what they said:

The difference between the Omni and Deltron is more solids for better coverage, so Omni will take more coats. No big deal.

Omni's Plus line has better coverage. Costs $142/Gal more than Omni. Not sure we need that.

The MC270 Omni Clear is a good clear and has limited UV protection and uses MH270 4:1 Hardener.

The DCU2021 Clear has considerably more UV protection and lays out really well during the air drying. Uses DOX61 4:1 Hardener.

Consensus is that the best clear coat the budget can afford, over a value base coat, would be the best combination, as the clear is what not only brings out the color of the base coat, but has to stand up to the environment (sun, rain, etc.)

Since the truck will be outside for the next few years, I think it makes sense to go with the OMNI Jack Black and the DCU2021 Clear.

Total cost would be $678 for everything.

My buddy used the OMNI base with the 2021 clear on several cars and they have held up well over the past 10+ years. He was told the same when he was researching his paint. Use a good clear over the value base and you should have a nice paint job. His looks REALLY good.
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Old 08-02-2018, 10:18 AM   #13
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Re: OMNI vs. DELTRON Advice

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Yeah, the red tint make a muddy brown black and blue tints seem to make a "blacker" black. I don't know what tints are used in these two options.

I am beginning to believe that the "savings" of finding new parts already painted was a false economy after all. Two things I hate to waste: TIME and MONEY. Seems both are at play here unless I paint the whole damn truck all over again.

I am thinking just sand the whole thing down and prime the ever-loving-hell out of it and wait until next Spring to paint the whole truck after I accumulate more funds. A mismatched paint job is totally unacceptable. I see that crap all the time on repairs driving all over the place, and it sucks. I think "how stupid and blind did that owner have to be not to see that?"

I refuse to be one of those owners.

If you have the eyes to see it on cars that you don't know were even repaired (most don't) you BETTER paint the whole thing! Knowing it was done will tell someone to look closer, not knowing it was done most people look past an awful color match.

I will forever remember a customer with a few year old Volvo in my shop for an estimate. He asked "will you be able to match the color?" And I said "A lot better than who ever painted that fender." Pointing to the front fender, and he looked shocked and said "I bought this car new, that fender has never been painted!" The fenders color was WAY off, by 10 miles off! LOLOL I knew I could make him happy.

It's so funny, in the autobody world the paint color is THE thing the customer sees more than anything. You could bolt the friggin door on upside down, the body work could have 1/4" waves in it, and the customer won't see it. But let that color be off a microscopic bit and you WILL hear about it.

Brian
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Old 08-02-2018, 05:50 PM   #14
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Re: OMNI vs. DELTRON Advice

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I wonder how PPG can stay in business selling the OMNI JACK BLACK that is nothing but a dirty brown black.
Simple. Same reason why a store like Harbor Freight can not only stay in business but expand is because too some people all they see is the initial cheap price tag.

One shop I worked at we did all the work for the Ford/Dodge dealership across the street. All the used car repairs got Omni vs the higher end DBC. Two colors, GM's Indigo Blue and Dodge's Inferno Red, required 3-4 coats of DBC, with Omni 15 to 16 coats typically. Not only are you now spending five times the initial price tag but spending far more time in the booth. We LOST money using Omni on certain colors.

I can tell you from EXPERIENCE Omni black in basecoat or SS when butted up to a cleaner black will stick out like a sore thumb. You simply can not remove or add tints to clean it up, the black tint itself is dirty.

I have no idea what Omni Plus is, am wondering if PPG just relabeled the old DBU into the Omni line.

If you want a nice clean black that won't cost as much as PPG DBC then buy some SPI. I would also put my money on their Universal Clear vs the 2021 any day of the week.

Scuff the painted parts with say 800 grit and shoot a couple of coats of the new black and be done with it.
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Old 08-02-2018, 06:33 PM   #15
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Re: OMNI vs. DELTRON Advice

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Simple. Same reason why a store like Harbor Freight can not only stay in business but expand is because too some people all they see is the initial cheap price tag.

One shop I worked at we did all the work for the Ford/Dodge dealership across the street. All the used car repairs got Omni vs the higher end DBC. Two colors, GM's Indigo Blue and Dodge's Inferno Red, required 3-4 coats of DBC, with Omni 15 to 16 coats typically. Not only are you now spending five times the initial price tag but spending far more time in the booth. We LOST money using Omni on certain colors.

I can tell you from EXPERIENCE Omni black in basecoat or SS when butted up to a cleaner black will stick out like a sore thumb. You simply can not remove or add tints to clean it up, the black tint itself is dirty.

I have no idea what Omni Plus is, am wondering if PPG just relabeled the old DBU into the Omni line.

If you want a nice clean black that won't cost as much as PPG DBC then buy some SPI. I would also put my money on their Universal Clear vs the 2021 any day of the week.

Scuff the painted parts with say 800 grit and shoot a couple of coats of the new black and be done with it.
So you agree that scuffing up the current base/clear coat parts (800 grit vs. 500 grit) and then shooting the whole truck with base/clear is doable (not having to go all the way to base on the painted parts)?

I will look around for SPI availability in my area. . .
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Old 08-02-2018, 06:56 PM   #16
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Re: OMNI vs. DELTRON Advice

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So you agree that scuffing up the current base/clear coat parts (800 grit vs. 500 grit) and then shooting the whole truck with base/clear is doable (not having to go all the way to base on the painted parts)?

I will look around for SPI availability in my area. . .
You sand it down into the base coat you are GONNA run into big problems. Depending on how old that paint job is, the solvents will attack the base coat causing it to lift.

There is NO I repeat NO rhyme or reason to sand down to the base. Scuff up the clear and paint.

Spi will ship it right to your door for FREE

SPI 215 vs Omni 175, 40 bucks is a no-brainer...Eric
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Old 08-02-2018, 09:59 PM   #17
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Re: OMNI vs. DELTRON Advice

You can Email Barry from his Web Page and ask him if there are any Dealers or Jobbers in your area. I found out from him that there are two in my area I can buy SPI Paint from. Barry Is a Nice Guy and very Helpful.
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:58 PM   #18
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Re: OMNI vs. DELTRON Advice

If you want to sp4ay the whole thing, donít pick out a mixed black, just ask for dbc9700 itís the black mixing base and about 1/2 the price , it thins 50% instead of 100, and is the blackest black they have. I can literally cover in one coat, you will not be happy with Omni base ,it will take 2-3 times as much material to cover, and thatís just more time for trash to get in the paint, Iíve actually used Omni clear over dbc but these cars ar always garaged, the better clear definitely looks and lasts better. I
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Old 08-10-2018, 03:14 AM   #19
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Re: OMNI vs. DELTRON Advice

The decision was made to go with the SPI materials. I will be ordering it in the morning and having it shipped to the shop. I will update the progress in the build thread, for sake of redundancy.
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Old 08-10-2018, 03:19 AM   #20
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Re: OMNI vs. DELTRON Advice

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. . . donít pick out a mixed black, just ask for dbc9700 itís the black mixing base and about 1/2 the price , it thins 50% instead of 100, and is the blackest black they have. I can literally cover in one coat, . . .
I recently watched a Barry White Wrecks to Riches episode where they did just that with an Orange base car. . . just used the tint.

Said it's a little trade secret that a lot of shops don't know you can do. Really made that car Orange!

I will definitely keep this in mind on the next project.
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Old 08-16-2018, 11:37 PM   #21
toolboxchev
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Re: OMNI vs. DELTRON Advice

I am going to agree with the guy recommending SPI, they have a good reputation in the industry today.

Local Supply guy for Oregon is down in California. I need to do more research on Paint products.

Supposedly SPI's quality is equivalent to the expensive stuff without the price. Love to hear from today's Experienced Paint guys on this.
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Old 08-17-2018, 12:23 AM   #22
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Re: OMNI vs. DELTRON Advice

I haven't used the paint, but I just placed my second order of epoxy primer yesterday.

Brian
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Old 08-17-2018, 01:15 AM   #23
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Re: OMNI vs. DELTRON Advice

I just sprayed my dune buggy body with Omni today. Iím fixing the buggy up and selling it to help fund other projects so I was looking for a hot red, preferably a good metallic red but every paint chip I picked was 3 stage and the cost was way too high at $500 or more for a small job. I finally grabbed the Omni chips and picked a straight, smoking hot red single stage. I got two quarts with catalyst and a little reducer (had some already) for less than $200.

It did take a few coats to cover but I had plenty and Iím really happy with the results, especially for a garage job. The buggy body was a nightmare with multiple coats of paint and primer over the yellow original gel coat. The topcoat was a red rattle can primer and it and another coat of some crap several layers down were rubbery. I stripped and sanded down to the gel coat and started over. Kinda overkill but I was pretty sure one of the layers of crud was going to explode on me the second the topcoat hit the body.

Anyway, Iím happy with Omni both from a quality and cost standpoint.
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Old 08-17-2018, 09:55 AM   #24
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Re: OMNI vs. DELTRON Advice

Looks like you did an awesome job there.

Brian
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Old 08-17-2018, 05:36 PM   #25
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Re: OMNI vs. DELTRON Advice

You'll be happy that you switched to SPI. We made the switch to SPI from PPG a couple years ago and haven't looked back. I have used Omni single stage urethane for inner fenders or frames that are painted black; we add 1/3rd flattening agent and it comes out great every time and holds up very well. I haven't tried it on any exterior panels to see how it holds up long term. Coverage is hit or miss; I've had some colors cover in once coat (single stage) and others needed 4-5 coats to fully cover. Reds are the worst, never buy Omni if you're shooting red!
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