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Old 05-10-2018, 09:46 AM   #51
dave`12
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Re: Alternator question

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Originally Posted by VetteVet View Post

The other red wire is the cab feed wire and you can use it to feed the firewall block. It's a 12 gauge wire which should be adequate for the fuse and instrument panel especially if you convert the headlight power from the headlight switch to to a couple of relays on the radiator support.
The cab feed wire is soldered at the factory junction, correct? So if I send one of the wires from the factory junction (the old alternator output) to the terminal that is getting power from the new alternator output, that should be good?
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Old 05-10-2018, 09:53 AM   #52
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Re: Alternator question

I think you are correct. You need to feed that factory junction and you use the old alternator wire to do it, unless you get rid of the factory junction and attach those various wires to your new junction block. If you wired them individually to your new junction block, you may need to extend each wire or replace some if the wires, because some may not be quite long enough.
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Old 05-10-2018, 10:08 AM   #53
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Re: Alternator question

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The one from the battery is absolutely necessary since it's a charging wire for the battery and it's critical for the ammeter to work. It's size and length is programed into the specifications of the ammeter gauge.
Thanx.

This should be a non issue, since I left my junction unmolested. Right?

Or, if this is a reference to the other junction, the one by the battery - I'm leaving those wires alone as well.
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Old 05-10-2018, 12:33 PM   #54
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Re: Alternator question

DJ, you said 2 grounds on the alternator. Can I use the factory one that goes to the fender by the junction, and just add a 10 gauge to where the fans ground, or should both be heavier?
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Old 05-10-2018, 01:33 PM   #55
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Re: Alternator question

No the reference is to the new junction. I had to separate the old junction wires because the alternator is now on the passenger side of the engine. I replaced my alternator output wire with an 8 gauge wire wire so I didn't need the old output wire for that, but I used it to power my coolant fan. My battery charge wire and the cab feed wire were long enough to reuse. One wire I forgot to mention is the black/white 18 gauge wire for the ammeter. It was soldered into the old factory junction so I just connected it to the new terminal with the alternator and battery charge and the ca feed wires.

The other ammeter wire that connects on the right fender junction runs straight to the cab firewall block and then straight to the cluster plug to termina 12. I ran it to to the terminal strip to a separate terminal and continued it from there to the cluster plug.

It is much easier to separate the old soldered, or crimped junction, wires and just do away with it. I am sure the wires aren't going to reach the junction so I would unwrap the harness and just use the one's you can and replace the rest after you reroute all of them then you can retape all the wires for a clean look.

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Just remember that all the wires you connect to your junction will be full time hot, and any keyed on hot wires like ignition and start and accessories will require a different junction or switch.

It doesn't matter which wires you connect to the junction, they will all be connected together.I would connect the alternator output, cab feed and alternator sensing wire, to one big lug, and the battery charge wire, and fan power wires to the other big lug.Then you have the smaller terminals to use for other relays.The brown exciter wire for the alternator to no. 1 on the alternator has to be keyed on power so, it will need to run to a separate connection or else straight to the alternator if it is long enough.
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Old 05-10-2018, 04:02 PM   #56
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Re: Alternator question

Thanx.
That would be better, vette, but I've decided not to mess with the junction as it works and my solder, electric skills are such that I'm not inclined to mess with stuff that works

So, my ammeter should be good as is. My new output will go to the terminal. The old output, that I cut by the alternator and that is still hooked to the junction will also go to the terminal bolt to send power to the cab.

My fans, I'm running them to the hot terminal that I'm adding, but the switch must be wired to interrupt the ground, because they were straight on my battery and still needed a switch to work.

I've finished the 2 wires to the terminals, and made the wires for the other stuff, but time is limited, so I haven't got past that yet. They are all fused as you instructed.
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Old 05-10-2018, 09:54 PM   #57
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Re: Alternator question

You're getting there.
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Old 05-11-2018, 06:09 PM   #58
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Re: Alternator question

Worked on it some today. The fan power wires that went to the battery now go across the radiator ready for the terminal (yellow connectors).

The power for the a/c fan that went to the junction by the battery has joined them. Also put in the fusible link.

The alternator is in and wired up. In addition to the ground it had, I sent another 10 gauge to the frame.

Having trouble drilling holes for the terminal, it's tight down there. So that's it for today.
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Old 05-15-2018, 07:10 PM   #59
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Re: Alternator question

Ok, here we go. Finished the wiring today. Did a test start. Everything still needs to be taped up and routed, but I wanted a test run. Here are the numbers.

Good - I hope - Please!

Before starting - 12.47v
Idle no accessories - 14.84v
Idle everything on - 13.04v
1500 rpm everything on 14.88v

So it's charging - not too high I hope?

The ammeter works correctly as well, showing heavy charge right after starting,then settling down just above center. Also moved up when everything turned on, then settled as well.

Here are some pics of the terminal strip. I ran the power from alternator and power to cab to the bottom bolt.
The radiator fans are on the top.
The a/c fan is in the middle.

I can't thank you DJLambert and Vette enough. No way without the help.

P.S. I reread all the posts and see that I asked questions already answered etc. Thank you for your kind patience! Oh, the blue box will cover the thing for extra protection when done.

Dave
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Old 05-15-2018, 07:28 PM   #60
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Re: Alternator question

Very good. What is the function of that blue box thingy?
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Old 05-15-2018, 07:36 PM   #61
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Re: Alternator question

I was sweating the numbers being too high. Thanx.

The box will cover the terminal - keep weather and stuff from touching the posts and shorting something out.

If you look at my picture in post #58,you will see the same box (but painted and cut to fit) covering my fan relays.
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Old 05-15-2018, 09:53 PM   #62
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Re: Alternator question

Pat yourself on the back for a job well done, and just think of all the guys we've helped with this thread.
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Old 05-19-2018, 10:57 AM   #63
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Re: Alternator question

I’m late to this convo but for future reference for guys doing a similar swap-I’ve got a lot of experience swapping late model alternators into all kinds of vintage GM stuff. You have to realize it isnt just about total amps that make the CS alternators superior to SI style ones its mainly about the regulator voltage output speed being MUCH faster to react to changes in voltage drop-and the CS alts shed heat much better. Size wise there is ONE direct fit CS alternator that fits the v-belt setups-simply swap pulleys but retain the CS cooling fan. Application is a 1988 Olds Firenza with a 2.0 FI (122cu) engine.
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Old 05-19-2018, 11:27 AM   #64
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Re: Alternator question

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Iím late to this convo but for future reference for guys doing a similar swap-Iíve got a lot of experience swapping late model alternators into all kinds of vintage GM stuff. You have to realize it isnt just about total amps that make the CS alternators superior to SI style ones its mainly about the regulator voltage output speed being MUCH faster to react to changes in voltage drop-and the CS alts shed heat much better. Size wise there is ONE direct fit CS alternator that fits the v-belt setups-simply swap pulleys but retain the CS cooling fan. Application is a 1988 Olds Firenza with a 2.0 FI (122cu) engine.
Good info. Is re-clocking easy? Do these have a ground terminal or only ground with the bracket?
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Old 05-19-2018, 11:53 AM   #65
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Re: Alternator question

Its already 12 and 6. No re-clocking needed.
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Old 05-27-2018, 11:43 AM   #66
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Re: Alternator question

You guys are bumming me out. Just finished the SI and everyone telling me that I should have went CS.

At any rate, I still consider it a major upgrade, and everything seems to be working great.

As an aside, I've been sick (shingles) so I haven't finished taping everything up. Will upload a pic when all that is done.

Thanks again!
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Old 05-27-2018, 12:12 PM   #67
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Re: Alternator question

The good thing is upgrading to a CS from an SI is far easier than going from externally regulated to SI anyway. The voltage regulator speed and overall heat disippation is far better. With regards to alternators, the newest style you can upgrade to the better!
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Old 05-27-2018, 12:28 PM   #68
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Re: Alternator question

I don't think you should be bummed out. The conversion to 12SI is much clearer than CS. There is not a clear description anywhere of exactly what to do. This thread is as close as I've seen, but the information about an application didn't appear until after you bought the 12SI.

In order to be clear (for me), the instructions for CS conversion need to have:
  • The alternator application. This is the required information that you walk into an auto parts store with, in order to get them to hand you the correct alternator across the counter. Without that, our only choice is to buy generic Chinese crud from Amazon or eBay, and we may not use a Delco/Remy. Until vince1 spoke up with "89 Pontiac Safari is a CS130 that has the V pulley" I don't think anybody had previously given an application. gmachinz has now also given another application for what appears to be the same alternator vince1 mentions, except the pully style. It is good to have a list of applications to choose from, like we have had for a while for the 12SI, by looking at the Mad Electrical website.
  • Part number and source for a suitable junction. I've decided to use the stock junction like the one on the passenger fender, and I will put it on the driver side fender for the alternator output. You've also found a nice junction.
  • Part number and source or application for the alternator connector, and clear information about the resistor for the L terminal, including part number and source or application. I've been researching this and I think perhaps ACDelco PT2145 is the correct one, it is an SI to CS130 adapter with resistor built in. There is no more Radio Shack to walk into and pick up a resistor, and even if you pick one up from somewhere, you still need the connector. So I am kind of liking that ACDelco PT2145 as a choice. With an ACDelco part number, it should be possible to get it from many sources.
  • The wiring diagram. I have added to the "Color Wiring Diagram FINISHED" post in this electrical section, I hope I got it right. If anybody points out errors, I will edit it.

Fortunately, it is not a very expensive project to experiment with, perhaps a couple hundred dollars for everything including a fresh Gates belt.

Last edited by dmjlambert; 05-27-2018 at 12:31 PM. Reason: minor corrections and punctuation
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Old 05-27-2018, 12:38 PM   #69
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Re: Alternator question

https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/...generator,2412

For this application it comes with the pulley.
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Old 05-27-2018, 01:08 PM   #70
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Re: Alternator question

I’ve used that alternator for countless 67-72 GM A-body alternator upgrade kits (Chevelle, Monte carlo, Cutlass) and along with my upgraded and re-routed system wiring, I can measure 14.5V @ output post with car running and 14.4V @ an interior stock fuse panel BAT terminal with car running while having:

AC on high speed
Headlights on
Aftermarket stereo with multiple amps hitting hard
Running the power windows up/down
Interior courtesy lighting on

I’ve proven over and over with those alternators that when properly supported in key areas using upgraded wiring, voltage loss is extremely minimal and amperage use is fairly low which is exactly as it should be. Part of my work was to also dispell the myth that people should always upgrade to the latest fuse panel blah blah blah that AAW and PAINLESS always try to push.
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Old 05-29-2018, 10:29 AM   #71
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Re: Alternator question

Is the Firenza CS alternator a 3 wire or a 4 wire connection? OK , looking thru your links it appears to be 4 wire with me using the S terminal only???? I have no idiot light (L terminal ??) on my 67 K10 -- I have a voltage gauge only. Should I pay $33 for a 4 prong female plug?? To just use 1 terminal?? Does this appear to make it 2 wire not including ground ------ Bat and S terminal? Or do I still have to use the L term also with resistance? Blame dave12 for this. haha dave 12, Hope shingles are easing up --- been there. Got a shot and hope never to get again. Wish they had had chicken pox shots when I was young.
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Old 05-29-2018, 12:07 PM   #72
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Re: Alternator question

The “L” still needs to go to your light circuit but I would still add a 150-200 ohm/1W resistor inline on it. The bigger red wire is still the voltage sensing lead too, then you have the big charge post cable to run.
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Old 05-30-2018, 12:56 PM   #73
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Re: Alternator question

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmachinz View Post
The good thing is upgrading to a CS from an SI is far easier than going from externally regulated to SI anyway. The voltage regulator speed and overall heat disippation is far better. With regards to alternators, the newest style you can upgrade to the better!
Spot on

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmjlambert View Post
I don't think you should be bummed out. The conversion to 12SI is much clearer than CS. There is not a clear description anywhere of exactly what to do. This thread is as close as I've seen, but the information about an application didn't appear until after you bought the 12SI. I have posted hundreds of threads on how to do it.

In order to be clear (for me), the instructions for CS conversion need to have:
  • The alternator application. This is the required information that you walk into an auto parts store with, in order to get them to hand you the correct alternator across the counter. Without that, our only choice is to buy generic Chinese crud from Amazon or eBay, and we may not use a Delco/Remy. Until vince1 spoke up with "89 Pontiac Safari is a CS130 that has the V pulley" I don't think anybody had previously given an application.
    I always say to use any of the early nineties GM trucks or the full size cars.

    gmachinz has now also given another application for what appears to be the same alternator vince1 mentions, except the pully style. It is good to have a list of applications to choose from, like we have had for a while for the 12SI, by looking at the Mad Electrical website.
  • Part number and source for a suitable junction. I've decided to use the stock junction like the one on the passenger fender, and I will put it on the driver side fender for the alternator output. You've also found a nice junction.
  • Part number and source or application for the alternator connector, and clear information about the resistor for the L terminal, including part number and source or application. I've been researching this and I think perhaps ACDelco PT2145 is the correct one, it is an SI to CS130 adapter with resistor built in. There is no more Radio Shack to walk into and pick up a resistor, and even if you pick one up from somewhere, you still need the connector. So I am kind of liking that ACDelco PT2145 as a choice. With an ACDelco part number, it should be possible to get it from many sources.
  • The wiring diagram. I have added to the "Color Wiring Diagram FINISHED" post in this electrical section, I hope I got it right. If anybody points out errors, I will edit it.

    There is an error on the wiper motor wiring where the yellow power wire is connected direct;y to one of the grounding wires from the wiper speed switch. I'll post pictures of it.


Fortunately, it is not a very expensive project to experiment with, perhaps a couple hundred dollars for everything including a fresh Gates belt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmachinz View Post
Iíve used that alternator for countless 67-72 GM A-body alternator upgrade kits (Chevelle, Monte carlo, Cutlass) and along with my upgraded and re-routed system wiring, I can measure 14.5V @ output post with car running and 14.4V @ an interior stock fuse panel BAT terminal with car running while having:

AC on high speed
Headlights on
Aftermarket stereo with multiple amps hitting hard
Running the power windows up/down
Interior courtesy lighting on

Iíve proven over and over with those alternators that when properly supported in key areas using upgraded wiring, voltage loss is extremely minimal and amperage use is fairly low which is exactly as it should be. Part of my work was to also dispell the myth that people should always upgrade to the latest fuse panel blah blah blah that AAW and PAINLESS always try to push.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmachinz View Post
The ďLĒ still needs to go to your light circuit but I would still add a 150-200 ohm/1W resistor inline on it. The bigger red wire is still the voltage sensing lead too, then you have the big charge post cable to run.
Worrying about finding a CS alternator with a V-belt pulley is useless, when it only takes a minute to change the serpentine pulley to the V-belt pulley.

All you need is a glove or rag, a 15/16" socket and an impact gun to zip it off and zip the V-belt pulley on. If yiou don't have an impact then the alternator armature has a socket for an allen driver to hold it while turning the nut with an open end wrench.




Here's the wiper error and the correction.


ERROR:

Name:  Wiper error.jpg
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Wiper correction:

Name:  Wiper correct.JPG
Views: 98
Size:  54.4 KB
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Old 05-31-2018, 11:44 AM   #74
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Re: Alternator question

I have changed the serpentine pulleys over to the V type and it is easy with the 15/16 socket and impact gun. The shafts though can be a little shorter and when you get the V pulley on the nut goes on barely flush. Also in the wrecking yards they charge extra for a separate V pulley so I figure any way I can get one without paying extra I'll take it. Portable impact guns are expensive but if I had one I'd do the swap right in the junk yard.
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Old 06-11-2018, 02:01 AM   #75
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Re: Alternator question

Thanks Dave 12 for starting and Dmjlambert, VetteVet, Vince1, Gmachinz , enjoying everyones input and gave me the direction I want to do in my 1970 C10 CST alternator upgrade,
im gonna go with ACDelco 3351011 cs130 this already has vpulley mounted
ACDelco PT2145, hopefully resistor correct

now I am assuming this comes with a big enough resistor already in place, if someone knows for sure please chime in
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