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Old 11-26-2018, 03:11 PM   #1
71CHEVYSHORTBED402
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Build front suspension before or after mounting the engine?

I've read it's much easier to remove the suspension with the engine mounted, because the weight of the engine helps. Note: I've already removed the suspension, this is a ground up.

I figured the same logic applies to building the suspension, but I've seen a couple builds done without an engine. I can't drop the engine yet, so I'm wondering if it's just as well to build the suspension without it?

If I build the suspension first, you figure I need a coil compressor or will a floor jack suffice? Also, is there any reason to torque everything down after the engine is mounted? Doesn't seem so, but just asking. Thank you
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Old 11-26-2018, 03:26 PM   #2
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Re: Build front suspension before or after mounting the engine?

Not to difficult to do at all with the truck. I just did a complete front rebuild with Moog components in 2 days taking my time. Only thing I had to remove was the wheel wells, just for convenience sake, and to ease my back.

Jack stands are a must, the coils will not compress without them under the rear frame. The coils come out easily by just lowering a jack under the lower control arm. Of course you have to pop the ball joints loose. I made a very simple tool out of a large bolt and nut with a washer welded to it. Torch the old ball joint stud only, hit with cold water hose and torque the tool, POP! I could get you a pic of it if you like.

Had a local Chevrolet dealer do the alignment, they were more than happy to do the work. Drives like a dream.
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Old 11-26-2018, 03:30 PM   #3
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Re: Build front suspension before or after mounting the engine?

I have only worked on two full suspension rebuilds (two different manufacturers), but I would say that you will need spring compressors. It's just too dangerous not to and maybe impossible without a torch. I don't think the weight of the engine makes much difference. When removing the coil springs, I guess you would not have to cinch the compressors down as much, but what are we talking about...an extra few inches? NBD.

Don't over think it...do it with the engine in or without, you'll not notice any appreciable difference.

If you build the suspension before installing the engine (that's how I've always done it), just get the alignment items adjusted close (eyeballed) and take it to the alignment shop once the project is ready for the road.

A far as torquing the suspension parts, definitely do that as you go. It does not hurt to check it all afterwards, but not necessary.
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Old 11-26-2018, 03:40 PM   #4
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Re: Build front suspension before or after mounting the engine?

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Originally Posted by toolboxchev View Post
Not to difficult to do at all with the truck. I just did a complete front rebuild with Moog components in 2 days taking my time. Only thing I had to remove was the wheel wells, just for convenience sake, and to ease my back.

Jack stands are a must, the coils will not compress without them under the rear frame. The coils come out easily by just lowering a jack under the lower control arm. Of course you have to pop the ball joints loose. I made a very simple tool out of a large bolt and nut with a washer welded to it. Torch the old ball joint stud only, hit with cold water hose and torque the tool, POP! I could get you a pic of it if you like.

Had a local Chevrolet dealer do the alignment, they were more than happy to do the work. Drives like a dream.
Nice. I already pulled the suspension, I'm more curious about building it without an engine on the frame.

Any considerations for assembling the control arm shafts, other than to make sure the hole in the lower shaft faces 12 o-clock? By chance did you spot weld the shaft nuts onto the control arms? I don't know that there's a reason to, but the originals were spot welded. Some don't even know they exist, my parts guy swears they were never spot welded.
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Old 11-26-2018, 04:40 PM   #5
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Re: Build front suspension before or after mounting the engine?

I rebuilt my front end with engine in, no front clip. Tried using a spring compressor but no place to get it in good. Just used a jack under lower a-arm.
The nuts were not welded to the arms, and I am sure it was factory parts still.
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Old 11-26-2018, 05:13 PM   #6
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Re: Build front suspension before or after mounting the engine?

Thanks for the information, it's appreciated. Looks like I have plenty to do with or without an oil pan currently in paint prison.

For what it's worth, I highly recommend securing the coil springs when removing or installing the suspension. It's simple to do, hopefully unnecessary, but better than a coil spring to the head.
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Old 11-26-2018, 06:30 PM   #7
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Re: Build front suspension before or after mounting the engine?

I just dropped the upper and lower control arms in today and I'll be dropping in the engine before the front springs and suspension is tightened up . I need the weight to compress the front springs .
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Old 11-26-2018, 08:23 PM   #8
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Re: Build front suspension before or after mounting the engine?

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I just dropped the upper and lower control arms in today and I'll be dropping in the engine before the front springs and suspension is tightened up . I need the weight to compress the front springs .
Pics Grumps pics......... You're always a step ahead of me. I just got the last of the rear brake parts today. One piece at a time it seems, no such thing as a kit with everything on the backing plate, springs here, clips there. And I give, why do you need the weight?

The welds, if any are VERY small. I didn't know they were there until I realized the grease nuts weren't coming off
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Old 11-26-2018, 08:58 PM   #9
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Re: Build front suspension before or after mounting the engine?

No preference engine in or out, with the exception of it is easier to clean stuff without the engine in the way. My experience says to check the lower shaft locating rivets for damage. (See photo) One of mine was sheared preventing positive indexing of the shaft for caster settings.
I may be mistaken but I think the factory manual says to do the final torque of the shaft bushings at ride height.
I can see why they may have welded them. There is a lot of torque on the bushings and not much in the way of threads in the control arm.
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Old 11-27-2018, 06:00 AM   #10
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Re: Build front suspension before or after mounting the engine?

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Nice. I already pulled the suspension, I'm more curious about building it without an engine on the frame.

Any considerations for assembling the control arm shafts, other than to make sure the hole in the lower shaft faces 12 o-clock? By chance did you spot weld the shaft nuts onto the control arms? I don't know that there's a reason to, but the originals were spot welded. Some don't even know they exist, my parts guy swears they were never spot welded.
There were no welds on mine when I disassembled them . before I installed the arms I cleaned and greased the threads and ran the new shaft caps all the way in on the bench ( without the shafts in place ) and they were really tight (mating 50 year old parts with new ) I just refinished the arms and shafts and I wasn't about to just clamp them in a vise to assemble So after thinking about it for a few I decided to mount the shafts in the frame and use the frame to hold the shafts while installing the arms/caps . ( this works being that it's a bare frame and nothings in the way ) And it worked better than I had planned . I used a 15"cresent wrench and armstong to tighten it all up and that made it easy to count rotations and balance the thread count. the last few threads required a helper bar on every cap.they all came up flush to the arms.and float like butter when done .I'll get some more pictures this morning .

Here is a good thread with good pictures ,Start at post 17 . .http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=560841

Can't stress enough about having clean threads , After looking at these pics I think mounting the shafts on the frame first is easier when working on a bare frame .

these are all new Moog shafts .
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Old 11-27-2018, 12:49 PM   #11
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Re: Build front suspension before or after mounting the engine?

Couple pics
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Old 11-27-2018, 01:20 PM   #12
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Re: Build front suspension before or after mounting the engine?

If that's a C10, I can tell you from experience that you won't need a spring compressor. Just put a floor jack under the control arm, bust loose a ball joint, and slowly lower the control arm until the spring falls out.

Never thought about this before, but it may be easier to install new springs with the engine's weight holding the frame down on the jack stands as you jack up the A-arm to compress the spring.

Be sure to check the control arms shafts for excessive play, and at the very least clean and grease the threads. BTW, the control arm shaft nuts on my 69 C10 were NOT spot welded.
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Old 11-27-2018, 04:19 PM   #13
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Re: Build front suspension before or after mounting the engine?

I rebuilt the suspension on my 64 impala with the clip off and engine out. What a pain in the a@#!
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Old 11-27-2018, 09:36 PM   #14
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Re: Build front suspension before or after mounting the engine?

I rebuilt the entire front end and put my motor in the frame for the weight when i installed the springs.... I though it would make it easier ..I have never seen the cross shaft caps tac welded
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Old 11-28-2018, 12:07 AM   #15
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Re: Build front suspension before or after mounting the engine?

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Originally Posted by Grumpy old man View Post
There were no welds on mine when I disassembled them . before I installed the arms I cleaned and greased the threads and ran the new shaft caps all the way in on the bench ( without the shafts in place ) and they were really tight (mating 50 year old parts with new ) I just refinished the arms and shafts and I wasn't about to just clamp them in a vise to assemble So after thinking about it for a few I decided to mount the shafts in the frame and use the frame to hold the shafts while installing the arms/caps . ( this works being that it's a bare frame and nothings in the way ) And it worked better than I had planned . I used a 15"cresent wrench and armstong to tighten it all up and that made it easy to count rotations and balance the thread count. the last few threads required a helper bar on every cap.they all came up flush to the arms.and float like butter when done .I'll get some more pictures this morning .

Here is a good thread with good pictures ,Start at post 17 . .http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=560841

Can't stress enough about having clean threads , After looking at these pics I think mounting the shafts on the frame first is easier when working on a bare frame .

these are all new Moog shafts .
Great info. Grumpy, and I'll do just that. I was contemplating having my shafts finished as well (Moog), but being yours look so nice, I think I'll have them powder coated as opposed the paint prison alternative.

I'll check out the link, thanks........Edit, just read it, nice. I didn't realize the "dimple" in the lower control arm shaft wasn't straight up 12 O-clock. I like your way of doing it, skip the vise and mount the shafts first.
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Old 11-28-2018, 03:03 AM   #16
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Re: Build front suspension before or after mounting the engine?

The lower pivot U bolts are 200% easier with the engine out.
Never used a coil spring compressor ever.
Usually get a coil cut while theyre out anyways.
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Old 11-28-2018, 08:46 AM   #17
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Re: Build front suspension before or after mounting the engine?

"Great info. Grumpy, and I'll do just that. I was contemplating having my shafts finished as well (Moog), but being yours look so nice, I think I'll have them powder coated as opposed the paint prison alternative. "

The lower shafts should be installed and torqued it's easy to align the shaft with the pin in the front saddle .The upper shaft just needs to be slid on the shafts to keep it from rotating while installing the arms .


Don't forget the u-bolt upgrade to the Dorman 13503 ,Just redrill the saddles to 9/16 . https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b.../13503/4527001

This frame was prepped /primed and then painted using Tractor supply Matte black with the catalyst hardener . Low budget frame paint and works great as long as you do good prep and prime . USE THE CATALYST HARDENER .
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Old 11-28-2018, 12:23 PM   #18
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Re: Build front suspension before or after mounting the engine?

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The lower pivot U bolts are 200% easier with the engine out.
Never used a coil spring compressor ever.
Usually get a coil cut while theyre out anyways.
Since you brought it up, question. I'm using 2.5" drop spindles (4" drop leaf spring @ rear) but the coil springs are stock height. Though they've already been powder coated I'm wondering if they should have been cut? Granted, they're probably easier to install if cut, but?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy old man View Post
The lower shafts should be installed and torqued it's easy to align the shaft with the pin in the front saddle .The upper shaft just needs to be slid on the shafts to keep it from rotating while installing the arms .
Don't forget the u-bolt upgrade to the Dorman 13503 ,Just redrill the saddles to 9/16 . https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b.../13503/4527001
I am using 9/16". Same with the U-bolts for the leaf springs. I believe the saddles are 9/16" anyway, it's their alignment with the cross member that can be off a pinch.

The U-bolts slid through 2 of 4 powder coated saddles. They're all snug, which seems to be right.......I'm no expert, perhaps some play is more desirable with vibrations and that. I used a fine rounded file on a hole each for the two, not much to it.
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Old 11-28-2018, 12:31 PM   #19
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Re: Build front suspension before or after mounting the engine?

I'm doing the same thing ,I cut 1 coil off . just touch up the cut end with some decent paint .
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Old 11-28-2018, 12:56 PM   #20
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Re: Build front suspension before or after mounting the engine?

I put one together with the entire truck apart. Use a coil spring compressor, and make sure everything is together correctly when you take the compression off the spring. This was several years ago. I put the suspension together before I sat the engine. I've seen guys use a jack and bolt the frame down with a chain to hold it, but you can compress the spring enough with a clamp that compresses down the center (you can rent one from the auto parts place likely).

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Old 11-28-2018, 01:22 PM   #21
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Re: Build front suspension before or after mounting the engine?

You need the weight of the truck, the engine alone isn't enough. You'd still need a spring bomb, er, compressor.
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Old 11-28-2018, 01:47 PM   #22
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Re: Build front suspension before or after mounting the engine?

Just did a 2.5 drop and all new suspension parts on mine with engine in.

Edit: don't know why the pic is sideways was straight when I posted it.


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Old 11-28-2018, 03:50 PM   #23
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Re: Build front suspension before or after mounting the engine?

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I'm doing the same thing ,I cut 1 coil off . just touch up the cut end with some decent paint .
Here's what I don't get. Why cut the coil spring in the first place? Should you with 2.5" drop spindles?

Also, I'm not sure original coil springs were intended to cut. The bottom coil differs from those above it, so seems it wouldn't seat quite right. Here's a pic. with some info.
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Old 11-28-2018, 05:18 PM   #24
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Re: Build front suspension before or after mounting the engine?

This should help explain it from a suspension supplier Global West Suspension . A LOT of guys are riding around with cut coils . Cutting your old coils will provide drop but also increase a firm ride = good thing . Buying new drop springs can leave you with the drop and less of a firm ride = bad thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHPosx2oStU
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Old 11-28-2018, 09:51 PM   #25
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Re: Build front suspension before or after mounting the engine?

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Originally Posted by Grumpy old man View Post
This should help explain it from a suspension supplier Global West Suspension . A LOT of guys are riding around with cut coils . Cutting your old coils will provide drop but also increase a firm ride = good thing . Buying new drop springs can leave you with the drop and less of a firm ride = bad thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHPosx2oStU
That's the 2nd link I put on the image. I can't wrap my head around the coil (pun) on the bottom per the original design, which would be lost on a cut coil. But yeah I believe you, apparently people cut them all the time. I'll watch his video again, see if I missed something.

I suppose a cut coil offers a firmer ride because the coil is stronger toward center. Must make up for compromising the factory platform

And how did you know I inquired on another set of springs?.....Shoot man, this is resource intense the first time out.

Here's another area I'm not clear, what a shock. I understand a 1" drop coil by itself drops the body 2". But back to the 2.5" drop spindles. Do you believe I need 1" drop coils to accomplish that 2.5"? I did ask the vendor, pending.......No doubt stock coils would be more difficult and dangerous, the spring would have to compress another inch.
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