The 1947 - Present Chevrolet & GMC Truck Message Board Network







Register or Log In To remove these advertisements.

Go Back   The 1947 - Present Chevrolet & GMC Truck Message Board Network > 47 - Current classic GM Trucks > The 1973 - 1987 Chevrolet & GMC Squarebody Pickups Message Board

Web 67-72chevytrucks.com


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-27-2016, 12:51 AM   #151
KQQL IT
At the body shop.
 
KQQL IT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: California for now...
Posts: 4,064
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Had a similar hesitation 950 hp double pump, but primary side is a near cousin.
Mine wanted a bigger cam, orange maybe. Tried a black cam. Too much would like to flood with 2-3 pumps
__________________
" That didnt make it any newer "
" Dont antique the equipment "
KQQL IT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2016, 01:00 AM   #152
Gregski
Senior Member
 
Gregski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 5,505
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Quote:
Originally Posted by KQQL IT View Post
Had a similar hesitation 950 hp double pump, but primary side is a near cousin.
Mine wanted a bigger cam, orange maybe. Tried a black cam. Too much would like to flood with 2-3 pumps
interesting, that's a huge carb, what's it on?
Gregski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2016, 01:45 AM   #153
KQQL IT
At the body shop.
 
KQQL IT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: California for now...
Posts: 4,064
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregski View Post
interesting, that's a huge carb, what's it on?

It's only 850 cfm for real, but my drag race 406 sbc.
Attached Images
 
__________________
" That didnt make it any newer "
" Dont antique the equipment "
KQQL IT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2016, 12:00 PM   #154
SCOTI
Registered User
 
SCOTI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: DALLAS,TX
Posts: 17,960
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregski View Post
Alright this left us with a slight hesitation upon blimping it, aka flooring it while in neutral, it would go

vrooo vroooooom, instead of a smooth vrooooooooooooooooooooooom

so it was time to try a bigger accelerator pump nozzle or a different accelerator pump cam, I bought both just in case

my carb came with the .031" and the next size up is the .032" which I thought would not be enough so I bumped it to the next size up the .035"

let me tell you swapping the little nozzle is a major PIA, I had to take the carb off to do i, as those pesky little black washers kept falling on the butterflies, danger danger

the bigger squirter took care of the hesitation while flooring it in neutral and the truck is running BEAUTIFULY!
Any updates? Still running good?
__________________
67SWB-B.B.RetroRod
64SWB-Recycle
89CCDually-Driver/Tow Truck
99CCSWB Driver
All Fleetsides

Building a small, high rpm engine
with the perfect bore, stroke and rod ratio is very impressive...
like a highly skilled Morrocan sword fighter with a Damascus Steel Scimitar.

Cubic inches is like Indiana Jones with a cheap pistol....
SCOTI is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2016, 01:07 PM   #155
Gregski
Senior Member
 
Gregski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 5,505
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTI View Post
Any updates? Still running good?
Man, I had a Dyno Test scheduled for a Tuesday and so on Saturday the weekend prior I decided to check the fluids and spark plugs, and things took a turn for the worst, I found the #5 spark plug all fouled up [again] with major carbon deposits...

so I did what any frustrated Hot Rodder would do I tore the engine all apart to investigate, you can follow along here on my build called Restoring Rusty ...
Attached Images
 
Gregski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2016, 10:49 AM   #156
Gregski
Senior Member
 
Gregski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 5,505
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

well with the engine all back together, new rings, new con rod bearings, it's time to start tuning all over again

no worries it is a great way to firm up our tuning skills

so we start with the distributor, and please if you have not read anything about setting ignition timing, read the following two articles by John Hinckley or if you read everything about timing and are more confused than a blind goat on astroturf again please give these two easy reads a go

Timing And Vacuum Advance 101

MAPPING YOUR ADVANCE CURVE

Spoiler Alert - my two take aways were:
1. you need more advance at idle/cruise than at wide open throttle

2. manifold vacuum is better than ported vacuum for the vacuum advance canister
Gregski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2016, 04:02 PM   #157
evan
Registered User
 
evan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SK, Canada
Posts: 326
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Thanks for posting all that. I hope you're able to get such a good result again after the rebuild.
__________________
Evan B.
'80 GMC C15 SWB
evan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2016, 09:52 PM   #158
57NAPCO
FBD guy
 
57NAPCO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Texas/Maine
Posts: 1,518
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Now that! was a most impressive read.

Thanks for taking us down that road, that was a lot of work. After reading this I just might try and tackle some tuning on one (or more) of the trucks I have. This is something I never would of considered doing prior to reading your thread...and I've been messin with these trucks for 40 years, not as a real mechanic, but a jackleg mechanic


*Jackleg
~ lacking skill or training : amateur <a jackleg carpenter>
~ designed as a temporary expedient : makeshift
57NAPCO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2016, 02:21 AM   #159
Gregski
Senior Member
 
Gregski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 5,505
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Quote:
Originally Posted by evan View Post
Thanks for posting all that. I hope you're able to get such a good result again after the rebuild.
You're welcome, I appreciate the feedback.

So to be honest with you I am still to get the carb dialed in after the new piston rings went on. It's about 80% there. Not to make any excuses but I swear the temperature has dropped 40 since last time I toyed with it. Seems like we went from Summer to Winter with only about 2 weeks of Fall, ha ha

So we are reminded of the three evil sisters when it comes to performance, Temperature, Humidity, and Elevation.

Now I am in Sacramento, CA so at least Elevation stays the same for the most part, I think we are at sea level or about 9 feet above.

I already mentioned that temperatures went from 80 F the last time I tuned the carb to 40 F and that is a huge change (cold weather packs in more air, the molecules are closer together or something like that) so your truck tends to run leaner in the winter if you don't give it a little attitude adjustment (think idle mix screws and turn them counter clockwise a quarter turn or so)

Well the humidy don't help either, and it don't have to be raining to be at 100% humidity, that don't help either that makes the truck run richer as there is water in the air and therefor less air enters the carb, since each air molecule has a water buddy hanging out with it type a thing.

but stay tuned, (pun intended) I am about to go Def Con 4 on this ol' Holley!

So the only problem is when I start rolling in first gear and accelerate to go into second, the carb leans out to say 20 AFR(ish) way too lean

It could be one of many things, but I am thinking the vacuum secondaries are opening up too soon now and I need to go to a harder / tougher spring

Last edited by Gregski; 12-11-2016 at 02:39 AM.
Gregski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2016, 01:47 AM   #160
Gregski
Senior Member
 
Gregski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 5,505
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

if you get in the Holley carb tuning game you might also have a full drawer that looks like this, ha ha
Attached Images
 
Gregski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2016, 01:49 AM   #161
Gregski
Senior Member
 
Gregski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 5,505
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

so just a quick update, I replaced the vacuum secondary spring with a stiffer Purple one to delay when the secondary butterflies open, and took the truck for a test drive, and it accelerated much better, so I will drive it to work for a week and report back on how it performs
Gregski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2016, 01:53 AM   #162
Gregski
Senior Member
 
Gregski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 5,505
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

I also noticed that I was idling really rich at 11/10 AFR (left and right banks) can you tell why, here's a hint

HUMIDITY:

When I started the test drive it was at 99% by the time I finished and took the pic of the weather on my phone it said 90%, still incredibly high
Attached Images
 
Gregski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2016, 02:49 AM   #163
LT7A
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 864
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Hey Greg, what a great compilation of information! To be honest with you, when you mentioned the AFR gauge in your other thread, I thought, ok, but it seems kinda gimmicky to me. Man I was wrong. Really cool how you were able to dial out the hesitations and significantly improve your gas mileage. I look forward to learning how to set up a portable system that I can move from vehicle to vehicle. Keep on it man, this is cool.
LT7A is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2017, 08:54 PM   #164
Gregski
Senior Member
 
Gregski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 5,505
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Quote:
Originally Posted by LT7A View Post
Hey Greg, what a great compilation of information! To be honest with you, when you mentioned the AFR gauge in your other thread, I thought, ok, but it seems kinda gimmicky to me. Man I was wrong. Really cool how you were able to dial out the hesitations and significantly improve your gas mileage. I look forward to learning how to set up a portable system that I can move from vehicle to vehicle. Keep on it man, this is cool.
thank you so much for the kind words
Gregski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2017, 09:04 PM   #165
Gregski
Senior Member
 
Gregski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 5,505
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Well its been a while since I updated and with the Holiday season behind us its time to get back into it. Today I replaced my 6.5 Power Valve with a 10.5 one. I believe that is the biggest one. Why did I do that? Well I noticed that I get incredibly high vacuum at part throttle, 19 to 20 inches of mercury I guess its called not PSI for vacuum. So as I am cruising around at part throttle say at 45 MPH I am pulling that much vacuum. The problem being when I give it gas my engine leans out to like 20 AFR way too lean and the car stumbles until it catches up on fuel

Now don't get me wrong vacuum is good, vacuum is the central nervous system of pre Electronic Fuel Injection (EFI) cars, however the Power Valve needs to be tuned accordingly.

So what the heck is a Power Valve and what does it do?

Well I heard it called an economy valve and I tend to buy into that nomenclature. The Power Valve is a spring loaded diaphragm helper a little assistant (see earlier Post #125). As you are cruising around at part throttle the car is not under very much load, its pretty easy to roll the car around once its rolling, somewhere I read it only takes like 25 horse power. You ever push a heavy something and once it started rolling you could just keep pushing it with one hand. Well same idea here.

Anyway there you are cruising around and all of a sudden you give it more gas to speed up for what ever reason, maybe you are on a freeway onramp and need to merge into traffic. What happens in the carb? Well the butterflies fling open and a ton of air rushes into the carb. But wait what about the gasoline? Well air moves much faster than gas, so your carb goes lean, way lean until the gasoline catches up.

So its the Power Valves job to flow more gas and what tells it to do so is vacuum, more precisely a drop in vacuum. The numbers on the Power Valve tell at what vacuum the power valve will open. So as my vacuum drops from 20 to 19 to 18... I had to wait until it dropped to 6.5 before my old Power Valve would let more gasoline into the intake manifold. Now I only have to wait until the vacuum drops to 10.5

I think the reason that the Power Valve is dubbed the economy valve is that its like a gatekeeper it prevents too much gas flowing through when you don't need it (cruising) and more to flow through when you accelerate but based on the vacuum signal and not your right foot.

The Accelerator pump reacts to your foot if you mash the pedal it will squirt, if you gently press your gas pedal slowly down to the floor the accelerator pump may not even squirt at all, yet when the vacuum drops beyond a certain level 6.5 or 10.5 that Power Valve is opening.

hope that makes some sense, please correct me if I am wrong

Last edited by Gregski; 01-21-2017 at 09:16 PM.
Gregski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2017, 11:56 PM   #166
SkinnyG
Registered User
 
SkinnyG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Beautiful BC, Canada, eh?!
Posts: 822
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

I've never heard it called an economy valve, but your understanding of how it works is reasonable.

One of the ways I describe it all is this:

You want a good, perfect idle, so you make the idle fuel ports adjustable with mixture screws so you can make it perfect.

You want good full throttle power, so you make the main jets big enough to feed the engine for full power.

Except that will be too much fuel for good economy when cruising, so we create a valve that can restrict most of that fuel for when you're cruising. On your Holley, it's a Power Valve. On a Q-Jet, it's the metering rods and power piston spring.
---
Curious - what is your idle vacuum reading? It is often recommended to have the power valve open at half your idle vacuum reading.
__________________
Nostrildamus - 1961 Apache, now under the knife
The Crusty Chevy - 1977 Silverado, shortboxed & dropped, potato-potato.
The Fiendish Firefly - The ultimate engine swap: 5.7lbs in a 1lb bag
The Lethal Locost - Street legal rollerskate
SkinnyG is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2017, 09:49 AM   #167
Gregski
Senior Member
 
Gregski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 5,505
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinnyG View Post
...You want good full throttle power, so you make the main jets big enough to feed the engine for full power.

Except that will be too much fuel for good economy when cruising, so we create a valve that can restrict most of that fuel for when you're cruising. On your Holley, it's a Power Valve. On a Q-Jet, it's the metering rods and power piston spring.
I just want to point out that the Power Valve does not "restrict most of that fuel" which when I read your comment implies coming from the main jets. Not trying to argue or say you are right or wrong I am just stating that the Power Valve is an additional circuit or an additional way to get fuel from the float bowl to the main well. The jets give the fuel two paths from the float bowl to the main well. And between those two jets sits the Power Valve and it provides actually two more little holes called PVCRs Power Valve Channel Restrictions which are opened and closed using a single Power Valve. So yes in the end the Power Valve controls how much fuel enters the main well but through its own additional path and not the Main Jets, just thought it was important to clerify that (since it took me a while to learn this so now I must show off what I know, JK, ha ha) again I think we are both trying to say the same thing so I appreciate your comment (as always)
Gregski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2017, 09:52 AM   #168
Gregski
Senior Member
 
Gregski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 5,505
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinnyG View Post
Curious - what is your idle vacuum reading? It is often recommended to have the power valve open at half your idle vacuum reading.
Great question, and I have seen that formula as well, my highest steady vacuum at idle of 900 RPM is 20 inches, yes that high, so the 10.5 Power Valve makes sense, I think maybe I could use or try the 9.5 but they were sold out of that one.
Gregski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2017, 09:56 AM   #169
Gregski
Senior Member
 
Gregski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 5,505
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinnyG View Post
I've never heard it called an economy valve, but your understanding of how it works is reasonable.
I think technically they called it the "economizer" valve, I tried Googling it and yup Power Valves show up.

Dave Emanuel mentions it in his Super Tuning and Modifying HOLLEY Carburetors book, great read, he is a funny guy and explains things wonderfully, highly recommend one of his books
Gregski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2017, 04:27 PM   #170
Jay2Cor517
Registered User
 
Jay2Cor517's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 75
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregski View Post

P/N: 3851, MSRP $169 I scored it for $130 new and free shipping on eBay

one gotcha is that this gauge did not come with the "intermediate" Molex cable to connect it to the existing gauge / controller so I will have to purchase that separate now I can use it in stand alone mode, but the whole point of going with all gauges from the same company is that they integrate and plug in to each other, very cool stuff
I had been looking in to tuning using an AFR gauge for a while now and you have convinced me it's worth the effort. The plan is to order the dual AFR gauge and vacuum/boost gauge then install at the same time. As far as the 'gotcha', what is the P/N for the cable? I went to their website but couldn't figure out which one. Thanks for all the hard work, documentation, pics, graphs, trial and error etc. It's makes it just that much easier for the rest of us to follow. Keep posting--Jay2Cor517
__________________
Everything that can be counted does not necessarily counts; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted--Albert Einstein
Jay2Cor517 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2017, 01:49 AM   #171
Gregski
Senior Member
 
Gregski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 5,505
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

its been a while since I updated, if you follow my Restoring Rusty thread you may be aware that we had to move again, I swear if you want to sell your house let us rent it from you, it will sell ASAP, ha ha

anyway finally got the center hung float bowls with proper sight glasses on the carb and a proper dual inlet fuel line setup, can't wait to tune it now

mounted it on with a 1" four hole plastic spacer and had to use 2 1/2" studs cause the 2" I had were still too short

the spacer is a good idea and some would say the taller the better, and if you got the space like we do in these trucks under the hood, why not try it, it keeps the heat off the intake manifold away from the carb and gives the air/fuel mixture a longer path to mingle properly on its way down
Attached Images
     

Last edited by Gregski; 09-25-2018 at 08:11 PM.
Gregski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2017, 12:24 PM   #172
LT7A
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 864
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Had me laughing here:

Quote:
I swear if you want to sell your house let us rent it from you, it will sell ASAP
Glad to hear that you are also a Jeff Smith fan. Thanks again for writing all of this up. I used to think that this kinda stuff was beyond me technically. Now I enjoy it because of how effective I learned that it is, due to this thread. And it makes my mental matter hum.
LT7A is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2017, 01:21 PM   #173
Gregski
Senior Member
 
Gregski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 5,505
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Quote:
Originally Posted by LT7A View Post
Had me laughing here:



Glad to hear that you are also a Jeff Smith fan. Thanks again for writing all of this up. I used to think that this kinda stuff was beyond me technically. Now I enjoy it because of how effective I learned that it is, due to this thread. And it makes my mental matter hum.
makes for great conversation and takes the pick up line to a whole new level: "hey baby I can make your engine run at a perfect stoic 14.7 AFR all day long!" jk
Gregski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2017, 06:59 PM   #174
SkinnyG
Registered User
 
SkinnyG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Beautiful BC, Canada, eh?!
Posts: 822
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Actual question I put on a printed Fuel System Quiz:

14) Spell "Stoichiometric"
a. Stoechiometric
b. Stoikiometric
c. Stoicheometric
d. Stoichiometric

Nobody got it right.
__________________
Nostrildamus - 1961 Apache, now under the knife
The Crusty Chevy - 1977 Silverado, shortboxed & dropped, potato-potato.
The Fiendish Firefly - The ultimate engine swap: 5.7lbs in a 1lb bag
The Lethal Locost - Street legal rollerskate
SkinnyG is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2017, 01:18 PM   #175
Gregski
Senior Member
 
Gregski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 5,505
Re: INNOVATE DLG1 Wideband O2 Oxygen Sensor Tuning Diagnostics Logging Air Fuel Ratio

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinnyG View Post
Actual question I put on a printed Fuel System Quiz:

14) Spell "Stoichiometric"
a. Stoechiometric
b. Stoikiometric
c. Stoicheometric
d. Stoichiometric

Nobody got it right.
that is hillarious!
Gregski is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:51 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright 1997-2013 67-72chevytrucks.com