58 Apache builds, pictures, parts....

[68Gold/white]

I have a good friend that just bought a 58 Apache.
I've browsed here a bunch looking specifically for 58 Apache builds there are some...
He's going to modify it, install a LS engine, disc brakes, etc, make it a Hot Rod.
Are there aftermarket kits for independent front suspension, disc brakes and such???
This thing has been corn cob engineered so it's no candidate for an original restoration.
Thanks in advance!!!

[dsraven]

-IFS-check out the scottshotrods page, their cross members are built as one piece with control arm pivots already in the right place. there are others as well like this. saves the guess work of the kits that have a seperate component for the upper control arm pivot that needs to be welded on the frame. usually the axle centreline is an inch ahead of where it was originally if he is going to lower the truck. this is because the fender's wheel opening is angled at the rear so when the truck is brought down over the wheel it looks like the wheel is too far back and "stuffed" into the rear of the opening. when dissassembling it is a good idea to centre punch the original axle centre line on the frame. take lots of pics as the body comes off so you can remember where everything goes at assembly time. upgrade to what he wants right away, it's cheaper than waiting. big brakes, coil overs or bags etc etc
-ls engines-check out pirate 4x4 for a timeline of the engine family and go from there for what he wants. truck engines are plentifull so cheaper. try to buy a complete donor vehicle so he gets everything he needs and then sell or get rid of the rest when he is done. engine, trans, ecm, seats, rad, body mounts, rad, electric rad fan, fuse/relay box, accel pedal, brake pedal and booster etc. he will likely need a different oil pan if he gets a truck engine because the pan is deep. i used a 2000 camaro pan with a new baffle, oil pump pick up, dipstick and tube. if he finds a camaro parts car he could also grab the exhaust manifolds because they are narrower and will fit between the 58 frame rails. lt1swap has info on reprogramming the ecm to eliminate certain things that aren't needed in a hotrod. ls1tech is another site to research. the original computer can be used to make it run and there are several forums on that subject.
-rear axle- lots of guys are using a ford 8.8 from a mustang or explorer. the explorer diff has the pumpkin offset. they come with big axles and posi, also disc brakes. the axles and discs can be redrilled to accept a chevy pattern.they also have easy to configure park brakes. the track width is similar
-welders series has all kinds of brackets and parts. they also sell 4 link kits etc. they are Canadian so the dollar difference is in your favour
-check out other builds and see what you like

[dsraven]

before you start,
-try to remove the body and set the frame up on stands for ease of working. - measure the frame for sag, square etc. you can use masking tape to put a centre mark on each crossmember (side to side centre) and then run a string line or laser from the front to the rear to see if the centres line up. do a corner to corner measure as well to check for out of square. the assembly manual has the original measurements and points to measure from if you have that. these old trucks have sometimes had a rough life. looking back at my build the frame was actually bent behind the rear wheels. i would have been better off to have cut that section off in front of the wheels and built a nice c notch rather than spend all the time to straighten it. I needed one anyway.
-the front end I bought was a TCI MII unit which is several parts that weld onto the frame. one cross member and then some brackets for the upper control arm mounts. I researched and it looked pretty simple by the youtube posts. when the parts came in the cross member didn't come close to fitting the angle of my frame. the support line was not much help and they were not about to give me any specs or measurements so I could get it right. being a mechanic I researched geometry for MII and figured out what it had to look like in the end so it is all fine now. it was many trial and error days to get to that point. that is why I mentioned to buy a front IFS (if that is how you plan to go) that has a one piece cross member where the upper and lower control arm pivot mounts are already welded on, with the correct geometry and antidive angles etc, so all you have to do is mount the cross member to your frame and assemble the aux parts to it. it is important to get the frame level, side to side, and set at the correct rake angle (front to rear angle) that you decided on before you weld anything in. I modified some jack stands to accept some threaded rod on top. that way the frame can be bolted onto the rod and the rod can be adjusted to get the frame where it needs to be and then locked down. no accidental movements that can be disasterous if not noticed. I reccomend a digital level for this job. i know, guys do it with a bubble level and the truck drives awesome. I just know I had a good quality bubble level and got the frame dead on. then checked with the digital level and it was not dead on. just saying, you get out you put in. digital level is a good investment and you can always sell it after to recover some of the cost if need be.they are handy to get the frame level as well as at the 2 or 3 degree rake angle (that I wanted) where you would be guessing with a bubble level. when installing the cross member you can use the level onthe pivot bolt (installed by itself) to get the cross member level to the ground. more accurate that putting the level on the cross member top side which may not be totally flat after the manufacturing and welding process. remember to do tack welds and then check then when final welding do small welds and allow to cool between. welding distorts things. see some info below if you have time. the frame measurements are a little fuzzy on the 59 page. not sure the year of the other diagram, could be a 56 which is a little shorter out front.

ok, end of rant
hope it helps

[dsraven]

heidt's has a good article in their catalogue called "understanding independent front suspension" that is a good source before buying any IFS kit.

[68Gold/white]

Thanks, it all helps.
I have a 67 and 68, and am familiar with the 63-up stuff (not so the 60, 61 stuff with torsion bars).
59 and older stuff I am clueless. My buddy likes the 55-59 Chevy's and has a 56 Ford.
I am trying to gather as much info as possible to turn this 58 into a cool ride. It's way easier to have information from others that have already done this. He has a 56 Cameo....
Thanks again!

[Az. Hank]

Flat Out Engineering and Porterbuilt are a couple that come to mind.

[Advanced Design]

Really great information from dsraven. The only idea I could add is once the new ifs crossmember is tacked in place, assemble the suspension with wheels and tires, then throw the front fenders on to make sure the wheels are in the correct position in the fender. It is better to verify the crossmember is in the correct place before welding it in.

And of course another option is to buy a complete chassis... I believe Roadster Shop, Art Morrison, Fatman, etc. has them available

Hopefully your friend will join in here as there are lots of talented and knowledgeable folks willing to help.

[Patrat]

Having just finished my 59 basically the way you are talking about (IFS, 4 link, disc brakes, LS) I can tell you that it is a LOT of work. Doing it nights and weekends took me almost a year. Do a realistic estimate of all the cost for upgrading the existing frame and compare it to one of the complete chassis setups.

My next one will come from No Limit Engineering.

[dsraven]

check out canadian hotrods in Tappan BC. they make a great looking chassis with corvette suspension and GMparts. looks really nice in person. kinda pricey but your USD is worth more than our CAD. maybe get some good ideas if nothing else.
advanceddesign is right, tack it then assemble it then install front fenders with wheels and tire size you want on the truck. different tire sizes and different drop height make the wheels look like they are too far back if using the stock axle centreline. this is because the rear of the fender opening is tapered/angled while the front is not. the more you drop the truck the more the wheels/tires look like they are stuffed into the rear of the fender opening. could cause issues with rubbing as well I suppose. I moved mine ahead an inch but due to issues with my crossmember I am not sure how much drop I actually have. TCI MII crossmember with 2" drop spindles but after that it is a guessing game. I had to modify my cossmember to fit. maybe dropped another 1/2". tires/wheels are 235/75r15 from an S10, pink stringkine is ground level below tires.