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Old 07-09-2018, 11:42 PM   #1
obie16
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Engine placement help

So need some help I have a LQ4 that Iím putting in a 1950 frame, and it seems people are putting these engines in these trucks without altering the fire wall but Iím having trouble placing my engine without needing to cut up the fire wall... so a little background on the truck....
Itís a 1950 short box frame
Bitcoin products core support
Champion radiator electric fan
Dirty dingo motor mounts (willing to change those if someone has a better option)!!!
LQ4 with a 4L89E
No limit engineering mustang II front suspension

What am I doing wrong or am I over looking something?
Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!
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Old 07-09-2018, 11:50 PM   #2
mongocanfly
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Re: Engine placement help

Got any pics of it ?
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Old 07-10-2018, 12:05 AM   #3
obie16
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Re: Engine placement help

Sorry not I didnít but have any good pics at the moment... I can get some better ones tomorrow!
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Old 07-10-2018, 12:30 AM   #4
mr48chev
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Re: Engine placement help

That big thick radiator befuddles me a bit. It looks like the top is leaning back in the support and how thick is that thing?
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Old 07-10-2018, 02:12 AM   #5
Jesse Z
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Re: Engine placement help

I'm guessing that speech-to-text converted "Bit-chin' Products" into "Bitcoin Products" core support.

The are two ways to make more longitudinal room in an engine compartment: backward (firewall) or forward (radiator). LOTS of installations I see move the radiator ahead by modifying the core support. Looks like your radiator is in the stock position (yes, the rearward tilt is stock) so you may have to do some creative surgery on that core support to move the rad ahead.
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Old 07-10-2018, 02:50 PM   #6
obie16
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Re: Engine placement help

Yes I meant *****in.

The radiator is a 3row and is 2.5Ē thick, Iím a over do/think guy, probably would have been good with just the 2 row.

And with some of the research Iíve done I believe I can save myself 1.5Ē if I get corvette water pump, balancer, and front drive brackets (correct me if Iím wrong) vs. the stock truck front drive parts.
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Old 07-10-2018, 06:28 PM   #7
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Re: Engine placement help

i would mock up a steering column soon, even an old broom handle or something. see if it clears mounts and manifolds etc.
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Old 07-10-2018, 06:32 PM   #8
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Re: Engine placement help

also, ensure to leave enough room to comfortably use the accel pedal and have some foot room.
if you gotta cut the furewall anyway, try the hammer and dolly routine first, maybe you cab extend that middle hump enough to get some clearance for the injector rails etc. an aftermarket or car manifold would also help possibly, if you can find one shorter.
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Old 07-10-2018, 06:34 PM   #9
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Re: Engine placement help

what are you running for an oil pan? any room under the engine?
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Old 07-10-2018, 08:46 PM   #10
obie16
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Re: Engine placement help

Right now airs out, Iím sitting on the pan, Iíll be switching to a corvette style pan for sure...

Thatís one of the reasons I asked for help/guidance, if I have to Iíll move back the fire wall I just donít want to lose any of the leg room!

Does the broom handle mock up work?
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Old 07-10-2018, 09:52 PM   #11
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Re: Engine placement help

I think the most compact setup for an LS block would be the front accessories from the CTS-V. Here's a photo of the CTS-V accessories on the front of an LM7 block (LS 5.3L), which should be the same size as your LQ4 block:



I ended up switching to the LS1 camaro/firebird setup because of the A/C compressor mount I wanted to use, but sometimes I wish I would have stuck with the CTS-V setup because it gives you a lot of extra room.
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:15 AM   #12
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Re: Engine placement help

good googly moogly torchlight you make a gorgeous truck
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Old 07-11-2018, 03:15 AM   #13
dsraven
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Re: Engine placement help

broom handle works if you also have some u joints (you gotta buy anyway). broom handle fits inside the joint like the double d shaft would if you simply buy a handle or wood dowelling that fits the joint shaft size of the u joint and then grind it down some to be shaped like double d shaft. slip it inside the yoke and gently tighten up the retainer screw to hold it there. shorten the shaft (broom handle) as required to get the lengths you need. you can figure it out pretty quick if your set up will have enough room to fit the shaft through all the stuff in the way. waaay cheaper and easier to work with because it is just wood and grinds away pretty quick.
remember the u joint has a max operating angle and should be kept away from the exhaust heat. more angle in the joint means more speed differential between the input (steering wheel) shaft and the final output (steering gear input) shaft. a shaft with 2 joints and the input and output shafts at the same but opposite angles will cancel each others speed variations out. a shaft with 3 joints will compound the issue and cause binding and faster wear of the joints. if done incorrectly the steering wheel, in one complete turn, would turn the steering gear faster or slower during certain parts of the rotation. it would be one complete turn but the steering gear would speed up and slowing down twice during one constant speed rotation of the steering wheel. maybe not what you want to happen. worse when the angles increase.
check this video link for a better explanation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmV4qwLfOMY
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:12 AM   #14
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Re: Engine placement help

Torchlight's suggestion to use the Cadillac accesory drive will give you the most compact drive, but they're fairly hard to find and usually pretty spendy.

A F body Camaro front drive will get you back a ways too, but the ac hits the frame rail on an AD truck.

The Vette drive will get it back another half inch or so from the Camaro, but the Vette guys seem to be pretty proud of their parts too.

Another option is the radiator. The GMC radiator for the AD trucks sits further inside the support than the Chevy does to accommodate the longer GMC engine. It has a gooseneck filler tube to allow it to sit further into the support.

The brackets on the side of an AD radiator look like they could be modified to allow the radiator to sit in the support even further to give you a little more room.

You can always modify the firewall to let the engine slide back a little more. I've seen steel valve covers cut up and welded into the firewall to give some clearance to the LS heads. Saves a lot of metal forming, and I wouldn't have known they were cut from a valve cover unless they'd told me.

I moved my engine back almost 4" with a custom firewall. I wanted to use an original gas pedal, but it looks like I'll have to fab something custom because the engine having been moved back. Ditto with the brake and clutch linkage. The factory brake pedal now hits the back header tube, so I have to modify that too.

It's like whack-a-mole You solve one issue and two more pop up
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:05 PM   #15
dsraven
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Re: Engine placement help

if using a std trans this will complicate it more due to clutch pedal etc, like e says.
I have seen a tub from a steel wheel barrow used for a smooth looking firewall depression......less fab work as long as you do the math and make sure there is room when done for the pedals and foot room. a little more complicated for carpet when finished, dunno your plan for that.
peruse through, many ad trucks here with ls engines, gotta be a fix in the mix
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:05 PM   #16
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Re: Engine placement help

I have seen a few where the rad is placed in front of the rad support or between the support channels. maybe this would help for room?
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Old 07-11-2018, 01:53 PM   #17
e015475
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Re: Engine placement help

Here's a GMC radiator installed showing how it slides into the radiator support


Here's a comparison of the accessory drives - Maybe Torchlight can give the Cadillac dimensions


Here's my engine pushed back about 4". The guy who did it said it was about the same labor hours to patch the old firewalls' holes as it would be to make a new one. I think he was mistaken.

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Old 07-11-2018, 02:41 PM   #18
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Re: Engine placement help

Quote:
Originally Posted by e015475 View Post
Torchlight's suggestion to use the Cadillac accesory drive will give you the most compact drive, but they're fairly hard to find and usually pretty spendy.

A F body Camaro front drive will get you back a ways too, but the ac hits the frame rail on an AD truck.

The Vette drive will get it back another half inch or so from the Camaro, but the Vette guys seem to be pretty proud of their parts too.

Another option is the radiator. The GMC radiator for the AD trucks sits further inside the support than the Chevy does to accommodate the longer GMC engine. It has a gooseneck filler tube to allow it to sit further into the support.

The brackets on the side of an AD radiator look like they could be modified to allow the radiator to sit in the support even further to give you a little more room.

You can always modify the firewall to let the engine slide back a little more. I've seen steel valve covers cut up and welded into the firewall to give some clearance to the LS heads. Saves a lot of metal forming, and I wouldn't have known they were cut from a valve cover unless they'd told me.

I moved my engine back almost 4" with a custom firewall. I wanted to use an original gas pedal, but it looks like I'll have to fab something custom because the engine having been moved back. Ditto with the brake and clutch linkage. The factory brake pedal now hits the back header tube, so I have to modify that too.

It's like whack-a-mole You solve one issue and two more pop up

Everything you said is what I was going to say. I want to add that you can go with the Holley accessory drive because its the same as the corvette one but cheaper. I used holley but went with the 2008 corvette water pump because the pulley is thinner than the early bell pulley pump the corvette shared with the f-body.

The downside to the corvette sytle accessory drive is that you have to modify the inner fender. Mine is AC delete but you can see what I mean with the alternator.

You need to pick your poison. Either move the motor back, move the radiator forward, clearance the frame for f-body, or make room outward.

Pic for reference. 5.3L block, holley accessory drive, 2008 corvette waterpump, f-body oil pan, and only mod to the cab is for the transmission hump.
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Old 07-11-2018, 03:25 PM   #19
dsraven
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Re: Engine placement help

if you end up doing a firewall don't rule out the 3m panel adhesive. no welding. smooth firewall if desired, whatever you pick or have made up.
engine low and back gives better weight distribution but may come at a cost. do it right the first time though, whatever you decide. mock up steering, exhaust etc before deciding so you are sure the stuff will work together.
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Old 07-11-2018, 03:48 PM   #20
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Re: Engine placement help

Something about the way that radiator doesn't look right to me. I ran down and snapped you a few pictures of mine to see if the way it's mounted in there is wrong.
1st picture is a stock radiator mounted in the frame of a 51 GMC.
2nd is the backside clearance.
3rd is one out of a 52 on the ground.
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Old 07-11-2018, 03:56 PM   #21
b-mac
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Re: Engine placement help

I'm on an S10 frame, but had a similar problem. Here was my solution.

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Old 07-11-2018, 04:17 PM   #22
dsraven
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Re: Engine placement help

here was my solution to the problem on my task force truck. you could make something like this with a flange to overlap the existing area that you would cut away, then use panel adhesive on the flange to glue it on. no distortion that way and something you can do without welding skills. it also covers up a bunch of those firewall holes. a zip disc cuts the metal easily. a welder could fab you iup something from 16ga pretty quick if you couldn't do it yourself.
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Old 07-11-2018, 04:19 PM   #23
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Re: Engine placement help

just keep in mind the interior stuff like heater and ac if you plan to use them. otherwise that becomes a whole new can of worms. foot room as well.
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Old 07-11-2018, 09:01 PM   #24
obie16
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Re: Engine placement help

Hey guys thanks for the help!! Itís helpful to see all the different set ups! Root? Is that the high mount holly system, I liked the way the holly mid mount was set up but Iím not running a/c, so that system wonít work, did you look into the low mount system? Again thanks everyone!!
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Old 07-12-2018, 12:21 AM   #25
dsraven
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Re: Engine placement help

you could get something like this and use panel adhesive to glue it in. could possibly fab something if you have welding skills. cut out what you don't want from the old one and glue this on over top. then you still have the proper holes in behind to drill through if required for mounting heaters etc. that's if you want the stock interior items.

http://www.absolutesheetmetal.com/co...evy-pick-parts
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