47-55.1 What's going wrong inside my 350?

[1project2many]

Throw out that balancer!!! DransportGarage is 100% correct. When the rubber bond is broken the inertia ring is a disaster waiting for opportunity.

Rotating objects store massive amounts of energy. I've seen pieces of 3-1/2" cutting wheels take out face shields. I've seen 7" paper sanding discs being misused and crack windshields. I've seen CS144 alternator rotors take out hoods, radiators, and air cleaners before coming out the bottom of the vehicle. I've seen flexplates separate engines from transmissions. If a person has only one rule for safety, I believe it should be "Don't f*ck with spinny sh!t."

You should also look at renting a balancer installer when it is time to reassemble.

[DransportGarage]

BTW, MiraclePie was right that you should use the three threaded holes to pull balancers. Your local auto parts store - or the Internet - will have one of these:

https://www.amazon.com/ABN-Harmonic-...el+puller+tool

Also, you're not the first one to bung up a balancer, so don't beat yourself up about it. When you put it back on, don't beat on it. Use the big thread in the crank. When you starting pulling it on, be sure you have several threads engaged so you don't damage them, or get yourself an installation tool:

https://www.amazon.com/ProForm-66515...tallation+tool

[Driver_WT]

I highly recommend the balancer installation tool. I screwed up some of the threads on the end of my crank by not using an installation tool. And throw away that balancer, it is not worth the risk.

Good luck with the tear down.

Wade

[MD2020]

Originally Posted by DransportGarage

If the balancer were fine I'd be the first to tell you, but it is not. The two metal pieces and the rubber are bonded together at the factory. If the rubber joint is disturbed it is no longer a sound joint, and it would be a miracle if that outer ring didn't slip. Best case, the slippage would just cause the engine to be severely out of balance. More likely, the outer ring will "escape". When these things come apart at speed it is often not a pretty sight. If you're lucky, all you lose is a little sheet metal.

This guy was lucky. It went out the bottom in one piece: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAM6povsqno

...and some horror stories: https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...cident.390518/

Don't just trust me. Wait for others to offer their experiences. I'd love to be wrong on this one to save you a little money, but unfortunately, that money will be well-spent.

Good luck on the build!

YES
WHAT HE SAID
JUNK, throw it in the scrap pile!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[NeoJuice]

Originally Posted by DransportGarage

If the balancer were fine I'd be the first to tell you, but it is not. The two metal pieces and the rubber are bonded together at the factory. If the rubber joint is disturbed it is no longer a sound joint, and it would be a miracle if that outer ring didn't slip. Best case, the slippage would just cause the engine to be severely out of balance. More likely, the outer ring will "escape". When these things come apart at speed it is often not a pretty sight. If you're lucky, all you lose is a little sheet metal.

This guy was lucky. It went out the bottom in one piece: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAM6povsqno

...and some horror stories: https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...cident.390518/

Don't just trust me. Wait for others to offer their experiences. I'd love to be wrong on this one to save you a little money, but unfortunately, that money will be well-spent.

Good luck on the build!

Thank you for the information. The old balancer will be going on the junk pile. Safety first.

[NeoJuice]

Originally Posted by 1project2many

Throw out that balancer!!! DransportGarage is 100% correct. When the rubber bond is broken the inertia ring is a disaster waiting for opportunity.

Rotating objects store massive amounts of energy. I've seen pieces of 3-1/2" cutting wheels take out face shields. I've seen 7" paper sanding discs being misused and crack windshields. I've seen CS144 alternator rotors take out hoods, radiators, and air cleaners before coming out the bottom of the vehicle. I've seen flexplates separate engines from transmissions. If a person has only one rule for safety, I believe it should be "Don't f*ck with spinny sh!t."

You should also look at renting a balancer installer when it is time to reassemble.

Safety is number one. I will also be renting an installer tool. now i'm on the search for a new balancer. I wondering if I should go after market or OEM. I'll check out Napa and bumper to bumper and see what they got.

[NeoJuice]

Originally Posted by MD2020

YES
WHAT HE SAID
JUNK, throw it in the scrap pile!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Done.

[NeoJuice]

Originally Posted by Driver_WT

I highly recommend the balancer installation tool. I screwed up some of the threads on the end of my crank by not using an installation tool. And throw away that balancer, it is not worth the risk.

Good luck with the tear down.

Wade

Ill see what the parts store has for rent. I was looking on amazon at the proform installation tool. So I might order that.

Now I just need to find a new balancer. Anyone have any suggestions?

[DransportGarage]

Autozone will loan you an installer for FREE:

https://www.autozone.com/loan-a-tool...ler/787830_0_0

[dsraven]

first, find out the thread size and pitch in the crankshaft, then make a tool or try

auto value- possibly have a loaner tool if you guy the balancer there

napa-https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/SER3679

parts source or Canadian tire-https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/oem-long-reach-harmonic-balancer-1250077p.html

kms tools-https://www.kmstools.com/gearwrench-14pc-harmonic-balancer-installer-set-157963

princess auto-https://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/long-reach-harmonic-balancer-pulley-installer/A-p8492530e

[1project2many]

irst, find out the thread size and pitch in the crankshaft, then make a tool

7/16" fine thread.

Years ago I made a tool from a disassembled A6 compressor. I used the Torrington bearing, hardened washers, and part of the compressor shaft drilled and tapped. It worked for years but ultimately I was glad when I bought the real thing. Watch for tools that include a thrust bushing instead of a bearing. The tools above have bearings. The bushing is obvious:

[MiraclePieCo]

Balancer rubber (aka isolation ring) is just a friction fit between the inner hub and outer inertia ring. I'm a cheapskate so I've pushed some back into position that had been pried on by po's and it never caused a problem in the life of the vehicles - AS LONG AS IT HASN'T SPUN AND CHANGED THE POSITION OF THE TIMING MARK. But yeah, after reading this, for $50 I guess I should have replaced them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB2HBfnUAOA

I've also screwed every balancer I've ever owned on with the crank bolt without issue. Amazing how luck protects the ignorant, ha ha!

[DransportGarage]

Originally Posted by MiraclePieCo

Balancer rubber (aka isolation ring) is just a friction fit between the inner hub and outer inertia ring. I'm a cheapskate so I've pushed some back into position that had been pried on by po's and it never caused a problem in the life of the vehicles - AS LONG AS IT HASN'T SPUN AND CHANGED THE POSITION OF THE TIMING MARK. But yeah, after reading this, for $50 I guess I should have replaced them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB2HBfnUAOA

I've also screwed every balancer I've ever owned on with the crank bolt without issue. Amazing how luck protects the ignorant, ha ha!

We've all cheated death from time to time, and most of us are still here. I remember in my early days, pounding balancers on. I still use a bolt to pull them into place if they're not too persnickety, but experience teaches you the limits. Then there's those "indian tricks" (can I still say that?) I have a habit of pulling out of the bag.

[dsraven]

the impact from hammer on can separate the balancer if the bond is weak. it also isn't that awesome for the crank or the crank thrust bearing. it isn't that tough to make a single use installer if you know the thread size and pitch. better to buy a new balancer and pull it on.

[NeoJuice]

Here is a little update from yesterday. I got all the bolts removed and proceeded to remove the timing chain cover. It came off real easy with a little prying with a flat head screw driver on the top lip and it popped off. But low and behold I was not prepared to see what I found.

1. Bolt on timing gear was loose (as shown in pictures) I guess the previous owner did not torque to speck and use a little lock tight on the bolts.

2. The bottom lip of the timing cover came right off. The remainder of the lip is still in the bottom of the pan with the rubber gasket. I was like WTF? the little tack welds they used didnt hold.

So I need a new balancer and timing chain cover. I still need to drop the pan and get these gears off. What a pain in the a$$ this job has become. Before tearing everything down the engine is at TDC on #1. I'll have to check the rotor in the distributor because both gear timings are at 12 o'clock. Instead of being top (six o'clock) and bottom gear (12 o'clock)

[NeoJuice]

More. Look at the rubbing on the inside of the timing chain cover.

[dsraven]

thats kinda what I thought might be happening there with the noise right at the front of the engine and more or less at the timing cover. those cheap chromed timing covers are also prone to busting the lip off if there is any extra pressure applied. just look at the spot welds when you buy a new one to ensure they are solid. if it was me I would install a normal good quality timing gear and chain set and get rid of the existing gear drive. unless you like the noise they make. it is more stuff tucked away in there that may go wrong, not saying it will.
your chance to set up the distributor is right now. the timing marks should line up so you are probably just 180 degrees out. if you pull a valve cover you could see if the rockers are sitting right or if you pull the dist cap the rotor should line up with the appropriate tower for the number one wire. you could probably also see into the lifter area through an oil drain hole near the top of the block and check if the lifters are seated down in the bores like they would be for number one TDC.
-turn the engine over until it is right
-swap out what you are gonna swap or leave it the same, gear wise. ensure the timing marks line up proper and use some loctite on the gear retainer bolts. I would also use some new bolts there that are of the proper grade. bolts with no hash marks on them are usually soft. see the link for a set that comes with a metal lock plate that you bend the tabs over the bolt heads to ensure the bolts stay tight. this set also uses grade 8 bolts
-pull the pan and get the crap outta the pan and check the oil pump pick up at the same time to ensure it is solid, you may wanna pull a bearing cap just to see how that looks and check clearances etc. you will also see if the assembly guy used loctite on the rod bolts that way. the first one to see oil would be the first one to get any crap or contaminants, the last one to see oil would be the one to check for starvation issues. or just pull them all one at a time and see how the whole bottom end looks. it is apart now anyway. some plastigauge will be your cheapest purchase. ensure to use some bearing gaurd or assembly lube after the plastigauge check. write down your results so you know the clearances on each journal. peace of mind goes a long way. ensure to leave the crank sitting at TDC so you can check the timing tab with the new dampener
-clean the gasket surfaces well with some brake cleaner. install a good quality pan and timing gasket set with a new cover and seal. use a little "the right stuff" sealer in the corners where the gasket meets the rear main cap and also at the front corners. not too much so it squeezes out all over the place
-check to ensure the new timing cover timing marks align with the new dampener timing tab now that you know where TDC is.
-install the new dampener with a pull tool then install the proper dampener bolt and washer with some blue loctite
-should be good to go.

below are a few links you may find helpful. the last is a link for a gear drive set up with checks that need to be done on assembly with regards to the timing cover. if re-using the gear set ensure you do this part. also the metal tabs usually need to be bent over the bolt heads and then ensure they also clearance the timing cover. i suggest you read the whole thing first if you are gonna re-use the gears. if installing a standard chain set up check the back side of the existing top gear to ensure the flat thrust bushing is also removed with the gear and is not stuck top the block. if you know the manufacturer of the existing set maybe check online to see what it came with and what, if any, mods may have been done to the block to accept the new gear drive.

https://www.summitracing.com/int/par...-4605/overview

http://www.flowtechinduction.com/arp...olts-gen1-sbc/

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/051...-installation/

https://speedmaster79.com/support/In...ns_Gear_Drives

[DransportGarage]

The gears are in time. Turn the engine over to move the cam 180 degrees. The crank will move a full revolution and your timing marks will be lined up.

Hey! You found the source of the noise! That was way over half of the problem solved. Also, you should be able to turn that NEW gear drive into cash.

NOTE: On a stock small block chevy, you can't get the timing chain cover off until you at least drop the front part of the pan. It's always better to completely remove the pan and clean the lip to ensure a good liquid-tight seal. When you re-assemble, be sure to put the timing cover on first.

[dsraven]

exactly, t/cover first. in one of my previous posts here I mentioned removing the line up/placement dowels in the timing cover area in order to get the t/vover off. they are bit of a bugger to remove but it makes it easier to get the cover off without first dropping the pan. now that you have the cover off, with the gasket retaining lip broken, you can see why there is a problem getting the cover off without removing the dowels. anyway, lesson learned and you needed a new cover anyway. for install the cover goes on, then the pan as indicated. there is, however, a one piece oil pan gasket available that solves a few problems with the old 4 piece cork and rubber sets. all you would need is some clean surfaces and a drop or 2 of "the right stuff" or some good quality RTV silicone placed in the corners where they usually leak.
while the pan is off you may also wanna check the condition of the oil pan plug and the nut spot welded on the inside. if the threads are sorta not awesome now is the time to fix that issue as well. sometimes the nut can also split or crack because the piece of steel they use in there for the nut is not really much bigger than the hole for the threads. anyway, maybe worth a look see.if the plug has been replaced with one of those self threading over sized ones then you wanna check the condition of the nut as well for sure. the oil pan gaskets will require you to know if the dipstick is on the left or right, as seen from the driver's seat. see below for part numbers and description. there are also dual use ones, like the moroso one. when using an aftermarket t/cover there is also the issue with the depth of the groove for the front oil pan seal. some are deeper than others. ensure you get the right gasket.

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/the-t...-gaskets/28651

https://www.summitracing.com/int/par...et?prefilter=1

https://www.jegs.com/i/Fel-Pro/375/1880/10002/-1

https://www.jegs.com/i/Fel-Pro/375/1881/10002/-1

https://www.amazon.ca/Moroso-93150-G.../dp/B00CIJY5L6

[NeoJuice]

Originally Posted by dsraven

thats kinda what I thought might be happening there with the noise right at the front of the engine and more or less at the timing cover. those cheap chromed timing covers are also prone to busting the lip off if there is any extra pressure applied. just look at the spot welds when you buy a new one to ensure they are solid. if it was me I would install a normal good quality timing gear and chain set and get rid of the existing gear drive. unless you like the noise they make. it is more stuff tucked away in there that may go wrong, not saying it will.
your chance to set up the distributor is right now. the timing marks should line up so you are probably just 180 degrees out. if you pull a valve cover you could see if the rockers are sitting right or if you pull the dist cap the rotor should line up with the appropriate tower for the number one wire. you could probably also see into the lifter area through an oil drain hole near the top of the block and check if the lifters are seated down in the bores like they would be for number one TDC.
-turn the engine over until it is right
-swap out what you are gonna swap or leave it the same, gear wise. ensure the timing marks line up proper and use some loctite on the gear retainer bolts. I would also use some new bolts there that are of the proper grade. bolts with no hash marks on them are usually soft. see the link for a set that comes with a metal lock plate that you bend the tabs over the bolt heads to ensure the bolts stay tight. this set also uses grade 8 bolts
-pull the pan and get the crap outta the pan and check the oil pump pick up at the same time to ensure it is solid, you may wanna pull a bearing cap just to see how that looks and check clearances etc. you will also see if the assembly guy used loctite on the rod bolts that way. the first one to see oil would be the first one to get any crap or contaminants, the last one to see oil would be the one to check for starvation issues. or just pull them all one at a time and see how the whole bottom end looks. it is apart now anyway. some plastigauge will be your cheapest purchase. ensure to use some bearing gaurd or assembly lube after the plastigauge check. write down your results so you know the clearances on each journal. peace of mind goes a long way. ensure to leave the crank sitting at TDC so you can check the timing tab with the new dampener
-clean the gasket surfaces well with some brake cleaner. install a good quality pan and timing gasket set with a new cover and seal. use a little "the right stuff" sealer in the corners where the gasket meets the rear main cap and also at the front corners. not too much so it squeezes out all over the place
-check to ensure the new timing cover timing marks align with the new dampener timing tab now that you know where TDC is.
-install the new dampener with a pull tool then install the proper dampener bolt and washer with some blue loctite
-should be good to go.

below are a few links you may find helpful. the last is a link for a gear drive set up with checks that need to be done on assembly with regards to the timing cover. if re-using the gear set ensure you do this part. also the metal tabs usually need to be bent over the bolt heads and then ensure they also clearance the timing cover. i suggest you read the whole thing first if you are gonna re-use the gears. if installing a standard chain set up check the back side of the existing top gear to ensure the flat thrust bushing is also removed with the gear and is not stuck top the block. if you know the manufacturer of the existing set maybe check online to see what it came with and what, if any, mods may have been done to the block to accept the new gear drive.

https://www.summitracing.com/int/par...-4605/overview

http://www.flowtechinduction.com/arp...olts-gen1-sbc/

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/051...-installation/

https://speedmaster79.com/support/In...ns_Gear_Drives

Thanks for the tips dsraven. The gears are coming out for the double roller edelbrock timing chain. I've secured a new harmonic balancer and and a GM timing chain cover. They should be in tomorrow.

I hope to drop the pan in the coming days and get everything ready to install and I'll definitely read over all the links you provided.

[NeoJuice]

Originally Posted by DransportGarage

The gears are in time. Turn the engine over to move the cam 180 degrees. The crank will move a full revolution and your timing marks will be lined up.

Hey! You found the source of the noise! That was way over half of the problem solved. Also, you should be able to turn that NEW gear drive into cash.

NOTE: On a stock small block chevy, you can't get the timing chain cover off until you at least drop the front part of the pan. It's always better to completely remove the pan and clean the lip to ensure a good liquid-tight seal. When you re-assemble, be sure to put the timing cover on first.

I dont plan on keeping that noisy gear drive. That thing will be put online to go to a new home.

Before I pulled things apart I set TDC on #1. And as far as I believe that should mean the rotor should be pointing at #1 with the dots at crank 12 & cam 12. If the dots are at crank 12 and cam 6 then it's TDC on #6 piston then it should be good to fire as well. I'll probably turn the crank to crank 12 and cam 6 so I can line up the marks when the new chain is installed. I dont want to chance eyeballing 12 & 12 and maybe being a tooth off.

[NeoJuice]

Originally Posted by dsraven

exactly, t/cover first. in one of my previous posts here I mentioned removing the line up/placement dowels in the timing cover area in order to get the t/vover off. they are bit of a bugger to remove but it makes it easier to get the cover off without first dropping the pan. now that you have the cover off, with the gasket retaining lip broken, you can see why there is a problem getting the cover off without removing the dowels. anyway, lesson learned and you needed a new cover anyway. for install the cover goes on, then the pan as indicated. there is, however, a one piece oil pan gasket available that solves a few problems with the old 4 piece cork and rubber sets. all you would need is some clean surfaces and a drop or 2 of "the right stuff" or some good quality RTV silicone placed in the corners where they usually leak.
while the pan is off you may also wanna check the condition of the oil pan plug and the nut spot welded on the inside. if the threads are sorta not awesome now is the time to fix that issue as well. sometimes the nut can also split or crack because the piece of steel they use in there for the nut is not really much bigger than the hole for the threads. anyway, maybe worth a look see.if the plug has been replaced with one of those self threading over sized ones then you wanna check the condition of the nut as well for sure. the oil pan gaskets will require you to know if the dipstick is on the left or right, as seen from the driver's seat. see below for part numbers and description. there are also dual use ones, like the moroso one. when using an aftermarket t/cover there is also the issue with the depth of the groove for the front oil pan seal. some are deeper than others. ensure you get the right gasket.

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/the-t...-gaskets/28651

https://www.summitracing.com/int/par...et?prefilter=1

https://www.jegs.com/i/Fel-Pro/375/1880/10002/-1

https://www.jegs.com/i/Fel-Pro/375/1881/10002/-1

https://www.amazon.ca/Moroso-93150-G.../dp/B00CIJY5L6

Again thank you for the great wealth of knowledge DsRaven. I didn't pry on t/chain cover very hard and it just popped off. If you look at the pictures of the cover it looks like the pinch welds didnt even penetrate both pieces of metal. I'm looking at replacing it with a GM performance cover. It's like $30. I'm pretty sure the import ones are probably about the same price.

My parts should be in tomorrow morning. I'll keep you updated.

I found this article online. What do you think? Should I trim the new cover and remove the dowel pins to make the install easier? Or just drop the damm pan and put a new gasket on? If I drop the pan then I need to drop my new exhaust b/c it crosses over the oil pan.

http://nastyz28.com/threads/timing-c...20on%20a%20SBC.

[dsraven]

here is a youtube on the use of plastigage. one thing I would do differently is install the bearing in the cap before installing it on the rod journal. the tabs on the bearing cap needs to be aligned with the same spot on the rod, ie: the tabs line up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3pHb-qXZc8

[dsraven]

drop the pan. get all the crap out, check a rod bearing, like #2, and see what you have, go from there on that topic. install the new gasket and t/cover and new front seal installed over the dowels torque it down. install the pan gasket and pan. finish assembling the front end stuff, done deal. that is peace of mind plus the gaskets and seals fit properly and don't slip out of alignment while jamming it back together. sure, I have done that same thing. I have also done maaaaany of these covers and pan gaskets so it is sorta old hat to me. for a guy who hasn't I recommend to just drop the pan and seal stuff up correctly.
is that a hoist it's sitting on? for sure, drop the pan, no issues with access when the truck is up off the ground. your neck may not agree when done.......

[dsraven]

some gaskets come with these which will make your job a lot easier. they may come with the gasket or you could purchase a set cheap likely.

https://www.felpro.com/technical/tec...tion-snap.html