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Old 04-02-2008, 11:57 PM   #1
88lowrider
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Red face HELP, Broke down Again !!!

My truck keeps leaving me along side the road broke down and having to be towed home.

I have a 2 and a half page document typed up of how it started and what its doing now if there is any interest in trying to help me.

I have already replaced the ECM and had to jump around the Fuel Pump Relay this time to get her back home.
AAA will only give you three tows before they start charging big time.

I didn't want to add the the 2.5 page document as I figured no one would take the time to read it all.

I can do this at two different ways, post the whole thing here and or put in on my website, which I did.

http://www.joejohanesen.com/gmc/gmc.html

I hope someone can help me on this.

Thanks for taking the time to read this too.
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Old 04-03-2008, 12:50 AM   #2
jchav62
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Re: HELP, Broke down Again !!!

I had a couple of incidents similar to yours. One was on a 90 GMC 2500 that was actually a Survey Crew truck for the Nevada DOT. It left me stranded a few times...and I would have to get a tow. One time, while waiting for tow truck, I checked the fuses in the inside fuse box, on the side of the dash. There was one blown fuse in there labeled 'ECM' if I remember correctly. I replaced it with a good one, turned on the key and I could here the fuel pump right away. I fired it up, called off the tow truck and drove back to the yard. Worked for me a few times. The second time was on my personal vehicle, a 93 Chevy Shortbed. It left me a few times... got towed home a couple times, other times I would let the truck sit for a few minutes and it would start up again. That one ended up being the fuel pump....I replaced it and the problem was solved for the rest of the time I owned it... only thing is, after I replaced the fuel pump, the gas gauge acted funky...
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Old 04-03-2008, 06:30 AM   #3
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Re: HELP, Broke down Again !!!

I used your link, and read it.

Quote:
Any idea on what the fuel pump pressure should be on a TBI system? My book doesn’t say Squat about it.
The TBI fuel pressure specification for small block Chevy’s is 9 – 13 PSI with the truck running.

The fuel pressure is tested by using fittings to “T” in a pressure gauge and must be tested with the engine RUNNING.

I don’t have a schematic for your truck but this is my best educated guess at where the wires go.
Orange wire, hot all the time. Power supply from junction block

Red w\white, not hot. To ALDL terminal

Black w\white, not hot. ground

Red w\black, not hot, goes to Fuel Pump Fuse, didn’t expect it to come hot anyway. Out to fuel pump. This wire should have power for at least two seconds when you first turn the key on. It should also have power when the engine is cranking. If it does not get power the relay is most likely bad.

Green w\white, hot Only with starter engaged and turning the engine over. From ECM – controls the relay

The ECM controls the fuel pump relay.

There will only be power to the fuel pump for a few seconds when you first turn the key to the on position. If you are turning the key on then walking around the vehicle testing for voltage to the fuel pump circuit there will be no voltage and should not be power to the pump.

When the engine has oil pressure a redundant circuit supplies power to the fuel pump. This circuit goes through an oil pressure sensor/sender.

Once the engine is running the fuel pump should get power from the redundant circuit and not need the fuel pump relay to keep running.
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Old 04-03-2008, 07:02 AM   #4
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Re: HELP, Broke down Again !!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jchav62 View Post
only thing is, after I replaced the fuel pump, the gas gauge acted funky...
Exac same thing happened to me, including the gas gauge moving back and forth quickly.
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Old 04-03-2008, 08:27 AM   #5
88lowrider
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Cool Re: HELP, Broke down Again !!!

Thanks guys.
First thing I check was all the fuses and was not able to get power to run the fuel pump until I put a jumper around the Fuel Pump Relay..

Now that I let everything cool down, it started with the FPR hooked back up, like Nothing was wrong???

Does anyone know if the Distributor module is bad that it shuts off the fuel pump circuit ?

Reason I ask this is now that I think about it more, its never acted up until after its been running for awhile.
I was able to move it around the farm, hooking to trailers, moving them but just short running times.

I called the parts store and told them I needed more prices on other parts as replacing the ECM did not fix the problem.
He asked me, how many miles and have I ever replaced the distributor module on it.
After saying no, he said pull it, bring it in and they can test it. He told me its a big seller and they always stock several of them.

Again, the big question would be, can the distributor module not working cause the fuel pump circuit to fail?

The thing that is making me nuts is it "won't" stay broken as to find it.

Now that this truck is a high miler, makes me think I need to get my tail to GMC and purchase the "real" service manual for it.

Thanks again for your help guys...
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Old 04-03-2008, 05:33 PM   #6
JohnO356
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Re: HELP, Broke down Again !!!

Before you go to the dealer for a manual, check Ebay. Then Google for '88 Service Manual. I got all 4 manuals from different places (Service Manual, wiring diagram manual, electrical trouble shooting, and emissions) off the internet and total was about $150. It took a little while, but you can find them.
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Old 04-03-2008, 06:00 PM   #7
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Re: HELP, Broke down Again !!!

I read your book. What I see from your description is something is overheating. My only question is which comes first? you are getting no signal to the fuel pump relay, but a ecm will shut down the fuel system if it isn't sensing fire from the ignition system. If I was working on it I would start with the distributer, and coil. test them and make sure they work properly. also check for corrosion on the contacts. corrosion causes resistance and so does heat. When you reassemble put dielectric grease on module connections and coil connections. after that is done take it for a drive. If it screws up, let it cool down, and try it again. If I'm right about a temp issue it will refire when it cools down. The bad news is if the distributer doesn't fix it I'm gonna bet the pump is overheating and shutting down. Have you checked the fuel filter? if it is mostly plugged it can cause the pump to work too hard and over heat.
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Old 04-03-2008, 06:36 PM   #8
88lowrider
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Smile Re: HELP, Broke down Again !!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 89 crew View Post
I read your book. What I see from your description is something is overheating. My only question is which comes first? you are getting no signal to the fuel pump relay, but a ecm will shut down the fuel system if it isn't sensing fire from the ignition system. If I was working on it I would start with the distributer, and coil. test them and make sure they work properly. also check for corrosion on the contacts. corrosion causes resistance and so does heat. When you reassemble put dielectric grease on module connections and coil connections. after that is done take it for a drive. If it screws up, let it cool down, and try it again. If I'm right about a temp issue it will refire when it cools down. The bad news is if the distributer doesn't fix it I'm gonna bet the pump is overheating and shutting down. Have you checked the fuel filter? if it is mostly plugged it can cause the pump to work too hard and over heat.
Good answer!!!
That was one of the main things I was looking for, the ECM shuts down the fuel system if the distributor module is screwy.

I am not sure if I posted this but when the fellow put the crate motor in for me, his son was helping him (doing most of the work I would suspect) and the distributor was in wrong. It was a tooth off so instead of pulling it or moving the plug wires to the next holes to adjust for it, they just rammed it back to get it to time in. Doing this the wires were stretched Hard and I had to bend the coil back a tad to get the wires to relax some. When I did that, I noticed that the wires were right next to the coils primary and I seen what looked to be a hot spot or black spot ( possible rubbing mark) on the wires to the distributor module.
I have that out and going to have it tested today..
Fuel pump filter, its been awhile so I will pick that up as well, Seems to me that was under the truck by the tank?

Also the fellow about picking up the manuals on Ebay and other places, good call, I would never had gone to the stealership and paid retail plus anyway..
Good call..

Good answers everyone, Thanks Very Much !!
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Old 04-04-2008, 01:22 AM   #9
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Re: HELP, Broke down Again !!!

Clear the trouble codes that are in the ECM from you unplugging items like the Fuel pump relay. Then see if the system sets a trouble code the next time the vehicle won’t start or the next time it dies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 88lowrider View Post
Thanks guys.
First thing I check was all the fuses and was not able to get power to run the fuel pump until I put a jumper around the Fuel Pump Relay..

Now that I let everything cool down, it started with the FPR hooked back up, like Nothing was wrong??? ...
You are going to fight with this thing for a long time if you don’t use a logical plan to determine what the problem is. If you would test if power was getting to the fuel pump fuse under the hood When the ECM is sending the signal to prime the pump for a few seconds when the key is first turned on then we would have information that helps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 88lowrider View Post
Does anyone know if the Distributor module is bad that it shuts off the fuel pump circuit ? ...
No it does not shut off the fuel pump circuit. People think is does because they do not understand how the systems are interconnected.

The ECM controls the fuel pump relay.

The truck has a fuel pump relay that supplies power to the fuel pump when:
- Anytime the ECM receives a distributor reference pulse. (Engine running / engine cranking)
- The key is turned on engine not cranking – relay applied for 2 to 20 seconds (most trucks 2 seconds), depending on emissions equipment. Trucks over 8500 GVW and some other vehicles have and electronic Fuel timer module that allows the pump to run up to 20 seconds.
The key must be turned off for a certain amount of time before it will prime the system again when turned back on.

Remenber, there will only be power to the fuel pump for a few seconds when you first turn the key to the on position, so if you are turning the key on then walking around the vehicle testing for voltage to the fuel pump circuit there will be no voltage and should not be power to the pump.

The ECM should store a code 54 if the fuel pump relay fails.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevyTech View Post
When the engine has oil pressure a redundant circuit supplies power to the fuel pump. This circuit goes through an oil pressure sensor/sender.

Once the engine is running the fuel pump should get power from the redundant circuit and not need the fuel pump relay to keep running.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 88lowrider View Post
… I called the parts store and told them I needed more prices on other parts as replacing the ECM did not fix the problem.
He asked me, how many miles and have I ever replaced the distributor module on it.
After saying no, he said pull it, bring it in and they can test it. He told me its a big seller and they always stock several of them.

Again, the big question would be, can the distributor module not working cause the fuel pump circuit to fail?
A bad module will not stop the ECM from sending power to the fuel pump relay for a few seconds when the key is first turned on.

A bad module will not stop the redundant circuit from supplying power to the fuel pump once the engine has oil pressure.

A bad module can cause the ECM the receive no distributor reference pulse during cranking, so after the prime timer has expired the fuel pump relay would not be energized.
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Old 04-04-2008, 01:37 AM   #10
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Re: HELP, Broke down Again !!!

Keep in mind, on a 20 year old truck, you could have 2 or more failing parts causing problems.

The redundant fuel supply circuit may not work so the fuel pump relay is the only item supplying power to the fuel pump.

Sometimes the fuel pump current flow increases when the pump is getting bad. The high currant flow can damage the fuel pump relay, oil pressure sending unit and the terminals for the fuel pump wires on the fuel tank sending unit.

It is common for the distributor module to fail. The module could be the cause of your vehicles problem, and not knowing how the fuel pump circuit works could be leading you astray.

Last edited by ChevyTech; 04-04-2008 at 03:44 AM.
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Old 04-04-2008, 07:27 AM   #11
88lowrider
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Re: HELP, Broke down Again !!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevyTech View Post
Clear the trouble codes that are in the ECM from you unplugging items like the Fuel pump relay. Then see if the system sets a trouble code the next time the vehicle won’t start or the next time it dies.

I can do this but I don't have a tester to test it with. Might be able to rent one as the I live in on the Olympic Peninsula of Washington - which seems to be a geographical oddity for parts stores. I have to drive two towns over to get to the nearest parts store or auto shop. There is a big rental place in the next town so it it happens again, I will try and let it cool down and try to start it again to get it home.
Last time out with the truck, it broke down, after waiting for the wife to come and get me, I was able to jump start it (battery was low from the last time me grinding away with the starter like an idiot)
After jumping it I was able to drive it home and Almost get it back to the spot were I drove away from that morning, It broke down in the driveway.
After waiting about 20 minutes, it started again but I had jumped the fuel pump relay - or, it was cooled off enough?


You are going to fight with this thing for a long time if you don’t use a logical plan to determine what the problem is. If you would test if power was getting to the fuel pump fuse under the hood When the ECM is sending the signal to prime the pump for a few seconds when the key is first turned on then we would have information that helps.

When it died the first time, I checked that fuse and there was no power to it.
I might have forgot to say that.
When you mention logical plan, it would be nice to know what this stuff does, how its supposed to work and when, that way I would have a clue on what is going on. Its really hard to find good information.

When I take it out in the morning, I have the light tester and tools with me so I will be able to check that right away.

No it does not shut off the fuel pump circuit. People think is does because they do not understand how the systems are interconnected.

The ECM controls the fuel pump relay.

The truck has a fuel pump relay that supplies power to the fuel pump when:
- Anytime the ECM receives a distributor reference pulse. (Engine running / engine cranking)
- The key is turned on engine not cranking – relay applied for 2 to 20 seconds (most trucks 2 seconds), depending on emissions equipment. Trucks over 8500 GVW and some other vehicles have and electronic Fuel timer module that allows the pump to run up to 20 seconds.
The key must be turned off for a certain amount of time before it will prime the system again when turned back on.

Remenber, there will only be power to the fuel pump for a few seconds when you first turn the key to the on position, so if you are turning the key on then walking around the vehicle testing for voltage to the fuel pump circuit there will be no voltage and should not be power to the pump.

The ECM should store a code 54 if the fuel pump relay fails.

I will see if I can rent a code reader and find out..

A bad module will not stop the ECM from sending power to the fuel pump relay for a few seconds when the key is first turned on.

A bad module will not stop the redundant circuit from supplying power to the fuel pump once the engine has oil pressure.

A bad module can cause the ECM the receive no distributor reference pulse during cranking, so after the prime timer has expired the fuel pump relay would not be energized.
Interesting....
Seems I messed up the Quote some how?
This might make it next to impossible to see my answers.

Thanks...
Joe

Last edited by 88lowrider; 04-04-2008 at 07:28 AM.
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Old 04-04-2008, 07:42 AM   #12
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Re: HELP, Broke down Again !!!

I have replace the distributor module and ready to try it again.
Fuel pump was replace about 2 years ago along with the filter (found the receipt)
Should change it again just to be sure.
We will see how the module replacement works as they tested it at the auto parts store and i was told it was failing on the Low side?
When I asked the question, what IS the low side? All I got was, I don't know, the machine just says that ???
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Old 04-04-2008, 05:16 PM   #13
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Re: HELP, Broke down Again !!!

If you put in an original equipment GM pump two years ago it should still be good.

If you used an aftermarket replacement pump, like some of them they sell at the local NAPA, that could be what is failing judging by what I have seen.
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Old 04-04-2008, 06:36 PM   #14
88lowrider
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Re: HELP, Broke down Again !!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevyTech View Post
If you put in an original equipment GM pump two years ago it should still be good.

If you used an aftermarket replacement pump, like some of them they sell at the local NAPA, that could be what is failing judging by what I have seen.
I sure hope not as this truck is slammed real hard to the ground.
I did that before we moved to the farm we have now so its a pain. It has a 6" drop which means when there is a flat, your on iron.

Nevertheless, it came from Napa and I Do remember having a choice of getting a cheap one or the better one, I chose the better.

No real driveway, just gravel to jack it up to get under it to drop the tank.

The distributor module did test bad on the low side?? so I did replace that with the better one from Napa.
Closest chev dealer is about 80 miles away from me so I have been using Napa.

I guess I will know more as I am about to head to work with the truck so we will see.

One thing I did notice is the time in between stalls is getting closer and closer.
Another thing I did was use the hole saw to put two holes in front of the air dam as to get a tow chain in on each frame horn to at least pull her alone the side of the road if I need too. I am old school, old line mechanic from the early 80's so all this stuff is new to me.
With the 700r, no faster than 35mph being towed with the wheels on the ground?

Thanks again...
Joe

Last edited by 88lowrider; 04-04-2008 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 04-05-2008, 01:08 AM   #15
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Re: HELP, Broke down Again !!!

If you ever have to replace the fuel pump again, consider removing or sliding the box back, instead of dropping the tank. I prefer moving/removing the box.
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Old 04-05-2008, 04:42 AM   #16
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Re: HELP, Broke down Again !!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevyTech View Post
If you ever have to replace the fuel pump again, consider removing or sliding the box back, instead of dropping the tank. I prefer moving/removing the box.
Removing the bed works better for the 88 and newer c&k trucks on the r&v series you can't get cage out of the tank.
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Old 04-05-2008, 07:06 AM   #17
88lowrider
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Thumbs up Re: HELP, Broke down Again !!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 89 crew View Post
Removing the bed works better for the 88 and newer c&k trucks on the r&v series you can't get cage out of the tank.
It is a step side so the fenders are fiberglass..
This has got to be much easier than dropping that tank again..

So far, so good with today.
I was able to drive it to work and back today, 70 some miles with no issues.
I had Everything loaded into the truck just in case so I could do more testing.

Think I will just keep that testing stuff along with the towing gear loaded as well.

Will keep you posted.
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Old 04-05-2008, 11:36 PM   #18
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Re: HELP, Broke down Again !!!

Hopefully the truck is fixed.

Here is some more information if you have more trouble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 88lowrider
I will see if I can rent a code reader and find out..
Your 1988 is an OBDI system and codes can be retrieved without a scan tool or code reader.

Here are some web sites with the basics on retrieving codes without a scan tool or code reader.

Poor drawing of ALDL but ok instruction + codes
http://www.cfm-tech.com/gm_tbi_trouble_codes.htm

OBDI terminal identification
http://robertpowersmotorsports.frees.../ALDL_plug.jpg

OBDI illustration and instructions
http://www.troublecodes.net/GM/

1985 – 1990 trouble codes instructions
http://www.iroczone.com/specs/TroubleCodes.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by 88lowrider
When it died the first time, I checked that fuse and there was no power to it.
I might have forgot to say that.
There will never be power to the fuel pump fuse under the hood unless the engine is running, cranking or it is being tested during the few seconds of the pump prime cycle. This fuse is between the relay and the fuel pump, and not between the battery and the relay.
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Old 04-06-2008, 03:52 AM   #19
88lowrider
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Re: HELP, Broke down Again !!!

Good information !!!

I knew I had the service light that would blink the codes but never knew what they were, Good information for sure..
Fact it, I will go back to them and print them out to put in this worthless Chilton book.

Thanks for all your help on this problem..

So far, so good, day two of driving to work and back with no problems.
It will be awhile before I take the tools out just in case

Now I will go search the forum for some of my other issues to see what I can pickup. I have a hesitation accelerating, when cold. As soon as it warms up, its no longer hesitates.
Another thing it has done ever since they replaced the motor is it seems to take a fair amount of gas peddle before it will shift into passing gear or out of overdrive in to direct drive.
When I had another company rebuild the transmission, I had them check that and I was told all was well.

Thanks again for all your help...
Joe
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Old 04-06-2008, 04:10 AM   #20
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Re: HELP, Broke down Again !!!

You’re welcome. A thank you is always appreciated.

Let me know when you want to get in a discussion about your hesitation.

I am way to tired to write a long reply tonight.
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Old 04-11-2008, 05:47 PM   #21
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Re: HELP, Broke down Again !!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevyTech View Post
You’re welcome. A thank you is always appreciated.

Let me know when you want to get in a discussion about your hesitation.

I am way to tired to write a long reply tonight.
Good news, I am still up and running, driving to work every day.
Thanks again for your help !!!

Next will be trying to figure out why I have been getting the hesitation for some time now too.

Also ever since I had the crate motor installed, it seems as I have had to give it more gas peddle to get her to kick back into 4th gear and passing gear.
When I had the 400R rebuilt, I had him look at that and can't remember what was said but it still is bugging me..

Thanks again for your time.
Joe
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Old 04-11-2008, 07:46 PM   #22
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Re: HELP, Broke down Again !!!

I suggest checking the adjustment of the cable to the transmission. It not only controls the downshift – passing gear put it also affects the transmission fluid pressures.

The 4L60 and the 700R4 are same but do not confuse these with the 4L60E which is different.

This site has very detailed information on adjusting the cable to the transmission:
http://www.tvmadeez.com/article/index.php



Here is another part of the same site:
http://www.tvmadeez.com/article/part2.php

Here is another good site:
http://www.transmissioncenter.net/700r4.htm


You should start a new thread for discussing the hesitation because it could get to be a very long discussion.
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Old 04-12-2008, 05:07 AM   #23
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Re: HELP, Broke down Again !!!

Wow, that is a cool site for sure.
Wonder why the transmission guy (a friend) never adjusted it.
I will read the theory on how it works and do what I can with it.

Its been messed up for a Long time..

Thanks for your help and Yes, I will search for hesitation before starting a new thread..

Joe
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Old 04-12-2008, 05:26 AM   #24
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Re: HELP, Broke down Again !!!

Many people fail to realize that if the transmission (TV) cable is out of adjustment it can affect the fluid pressure so much that the transmission can slip and burn up.
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Old 04-27-2008, 08:06 PM   #25
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Re: HELP, Broke down Again !!!

Thanks again Chevytech for all your help.
Just so you know, I have printed out all the information and added it to a 3 ring binder for the future possible needs.
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