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Old 02-19-2017, 08:30 AM   #26
dave`12
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Re: Hard start question

Here you go:


all cranks are for 5 seconds.
unhooked power to HEI

beginning btty volts 12.67
btty post to post cranking drops about 1 volt

leads of multimeter: + btty to starter main line 000
" " cranking .25 (so 1/4 volt loss)

leads btty - to starter case .2 loss
" " cranking .25 loss

This was done cold.

These tests were done with my old battery, a cheap one at that. I've since upgraded to a new optima red top and upgraded the 4 guage wires to 2 gauge, so the numbers could well be better now. I also moved my ground from the alternator bracket to the engine block.

I've got some other stuff apart now, so I haven't tried running it hot and trying to start. Hopefully I can get to that in a couple of days.

I really think the issue is headers that are no more than an inch from my starter. I bought some header tape, but want to see what happens after my latest changes before breaking open the package, I'm hoping I can return the stuff, it was not cheap.

These are the headers: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...del/c10-pickup

If it's still bad, I may well return the header tape and just get ramhorns. I live in south florida, and the summers will be hot.
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Old 02-19-2017, 02:30 PM   #27
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Re: Hard start question

Your better option might be to go to a high torque mini starter. They don't seem to suffer from the heat soak problems.
I can't remember how you said your starter mounted to the engine. Does it bolt to the block with two staggered bolts or to the bell housing with three bolts? If you have the bolts in the block like the picture below then you should be using the starter with an aluminum nose cone if you have an automatic transmission.


The engine block mount. Shows the staggered and straight holes for the starter mount bolts.


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The starter mount holes in the nose cone.

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Here are the two style starters. The longer one is the high-torque and may be the one you need.

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This shows the small starter to block bracket for starter stability.

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I don't see any problem with your voltage drop readings in fact thay are very good and if this is the case with the original cables, then you didn't need new ones because the problem is in the starter windings. If you test the drop readings while the starter is hot then the drop may increase.

The reason I said you didn't need the 2 gauge negative cable, is because it is rated to carry more than enough current than your starter will draw, and also because the engine block is part of the return back to negative, and it has virtually no resistance plus the negative cable will be shorter than the positive ,which reduces its resistance as well. Makes sense to me.
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Old 02-19-2017, 02:53 PM   #28
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Re: Hard start question

Thanx vette. So you are saying I wasted 40.00 on 2 gauge cables? Bummer.

I have the 3 bolts to the bellhousing. I looked for a high torque starter, but Summit only had a referb. OEM. I have the factory Muncie 4 speed.

So what would you do now? I would hate to dump the starter I just paid 58.00 for (minus a 25.00 core) and if there actually is one out there, I have been unable to find it.
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Old 02-19-2017, 05:46 PM   #29
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Re: Hard start question

Quote:
Originally Posted by dave`12 View Post
Thanx vette. So you are saying I wasted 40.00 on 2 gauge cables? Bummer.

No, no,no,no. It is never a waste to go more than needed. You can always use them on another project since you know that they are good.

I have the 3 bolts to the bellhousing. I looked for a high torque starter, but Summit only had a referb. OEM. I have the factory Muncie 4 speed.

Ah that explains a lot. You are probably running the 158 tooth standard flywheel so you would have the bell housing mounts. I am not sure if the BH mount puts the starter higher up and nearer to the headers but it seems as though they would. Man I cut my teeth on Chevy small blocks and standard shifts but over the years I have forgotten a lot of stuff.

It might be possible to change the 3 bolt nose cone over to a high torque starter body, which would be the same as bolting up a high torque unit. I don't know if it's possible but a little research should give you an answer. I'm curious to know what engine you have that has the bell housing mount but not the block mount. You might find a better answer in the engine section of the forum. I'll see if I can find the website that I pulled the pictures from. It explained a lot about the differences.

So what would you do now? I would hate to dump the starter I just paid 58.00 for (minus a 25.00 core) and if there actually is one out there, I have been unable to find it.
Well you have said you might change to rams horns and you could sell the headers or keep them for the next engine. Or you might be able to change the nosecone on the starter. The headers look good but unless you are racing they don't help much. I'll get flamed for that I'm sure.
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Old 02-19-2017, 05:54 PM   #30
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Re: Hard start question

Here is the link and especially read the last post.

http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/...ification.html
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Old 02-19-2017, 06:16 PM   #31
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Re: Hard start question

thanx again, vette. I will read that link tomorrow (off to church now).

My engine is a late 70's 350. it's a 4 bolt main, most likely out of a pickup or suburban, not sure.

The block does have the holes for the starter, but I felt it was safer to go with the starter that I knew would work with my flywheel, hence the v6 starter that came on my 67 with the 250cid. As it is, I can't stick my finger between the starter and the headers.

I was afraid that another starter that would fit the block would not work with my flywheel.

The starter has a heat wrap, I could wrap that portion of the headers, but that's another 35.00...
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Old 02-19-2017, 06:27 PM   #32
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Re: Hard start question

Here's a link to a thread here on the forum for changing from what you have to the block mounted starter nose cone. So obviously the reverse must be possible. from what I have read (considerable) on this subject, any gm starter will fit either the 168 or the 153 tooth flywheel. According to the source the bendix gears are the same. Easy enough to verify, go to the parts store and match the part no. for either starter.

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=363843

If you have the block drilled holes then I would just get a good delco or powermaster ministarter and bolt it up and solve this problem.

Just for S and Grins I'm going out to the garage and see if I have a bell housing mount nose cone and see if it will mount on the block bolt starter. I have a few of those.
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Old 02-20-2017, 09:56 AM   #33
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Re: Hard start question

Thanx vette.

So if I understand you and the links, I can get whatever starter, and just bolt on my nose cone, then to the BH?

So any starter should work regardless of the number of teeth on my flywheel? That makes sense from a production standpoint, at least.

I'm going to test what I have in a couple of days, if it still does not start well, I guess I will go down this path.

What would you recommend as to exactly which starter (and year) I should get? I would prefer the cheapest (reliable) solution as I've already tossed too much money at this problem

I would be interested in what your trip to the garage turns up..

thanx

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Old 02-20-2017, 01:26 PM   #34
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Re: Hard start question

Take your pick. I think any of them would work.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...all+block+chev

I pulled out all my starters about 10 and discovered that there are differences in the bell housing mounts. two of them had 2 bolt mounts and one was a 3 bolt mount which was smaller . I have a body with out a nose cone mounted that had come with an aluminum two bolt cone so I tried to put the small 3 bolt bell housing on that body and I had some trouble but it appears that it will fit.

There is a small dowel pin on the starter body that matches a hole in the nose cone and the cone has a ridge that goes into the starter body. Then the two long starter body bolts screw into the nose cone. I need to clean up some corrosion on the two pieces but it appears that they will go together.
It was late so I didn't have time to get into it so I will check today and report what I find.
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Old 02-20-2017, 09:11 PM   #35
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Re: Hard start question

Well I went back to the garage today and pulled out all 10 of my starters and compared them. I have one 3 bolt nose cone starter and 2 two bolt starters that bolt to the bell housing and those two are different in that one has a wide space between the two holes and the other is narrower between the holes. I don't have a clue what they went to but they are GM starters with the solenoid mounted on the starter.

I also have three staggered vertical mount nosecones and one of those is a steel cone and the other two are aluminum .

The rest are all the aluminum cones with the holes straight across like the ones in the pictures above.

I was able to swap the nose cones on any of the starter bodies so that means that you can change your nose cone mount to any style starter body. All of my starters are used so I kept them for cores in case I need to buy a new one. The parts are nice to have sometimes also.

If you don't mind buying foreign here's a web sight that a lot of the forum guys buy from and they have a good reputation.
http://stores.ebay.com/whiteperformance1
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Old 02-20-2017, 10:00 PM   #36
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Re: Hard start question

I bought a mini starter from Skip White. It is OK but not sure it is a vast improvement over what I had. After emailing with Skip, he so highly recommended the Powermaster 9100 that I went ahead and got it. It did not come with the proper bolts like those $74.50 high torque mini starters come with, so I was disappointed. I used the old stock bolts with flat washers as spacers because the stock bolts are a little too long for the 9100 mini-starter. (EDIT: One thing I will say about the Chinese mini starter is if you undo the small bolts that let you change the clocking, or take them loose just to look at the clocking options, you must use some of that blue thread locker paste on those screws, because they will come loose. It may be a good idea to remove those screws just to apply thread locker even if you're not interested in changing the clocking. After mounting any starter, crawl under there and check that it's still tight after a week, and again after a month. While you're at it, check your wheel lug nuts, too, just for the heck of it.)

I've been watching your thread quietly wondering if I had anything to pitch in, and I just don't know what to think. I would think the heat shield on the starter would do good. I have just a couple of thoughts, and I'm a newbie so don't know if it will do you any good:

1. So, if you retard the timing a little, all problem with hot cranking is cured? That makes me wonder about if your distributor vacuum advance is working and if you have it hooked up. The whole point of the vacuum advance is to retard the timing until you get above idle. So if you like your timing that gives you a difficult hot start, are you achieving that amount of advance by using the vacuum advance? If you do have it connected to ported vacuum, have you checked that the vacuum actuator actually works?

2. When you moved that neg cable from the alternator bracket and bolted it straight to the engine block, did you clean paint off down to bare metal where it is attached? Is the place where the starter is attached bare metal?

3. Is the problem cured by putting jumper cable directly between the negative terminal of your truck's battery and the starter housing, and putting a jumper cable between the positive terminal of the truck's battery to the battery terminal of the starter, so you are supplementing the truck's battery cables? I was not sure what you meant by "A jump will make it start fine when hot", if you meant jumping from another car or separate battery, or simply adding more wire in parallel to the existing wires, which I think is what Franken was suggesting when he said add capacity to existing wires as a test.

4. As a test, try sticking a cut coffee can or roof flashing or other sheet metal between the header and starter, preferably wedged in there somehow to get it to have a small air space between the header and sheet metal, and air space between the starter and sheet metal. Does the starter get so hot that you can't touch it when it is shielded in that way? If you are able to situate a sheet metal heat shield in that manner I would think it is OK to remove the heat shield wrap from the starter (if it is that type of heat shield). Disconnect the neg battery cable from the battery while messing around in that area of the starter with a hunk of metal, so you don't cause a short. Make sure the terminals of the starter are not so close to the fabricated heat shield that you could have a short while running the engine or driving until the engine is hot.

Last edited by dmjlambert; 02-20-2017 at 10:06 PM. Reason: add more information about loose bolts on mini starter
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Old 02-23-2017, 09:26 PM   #37
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Re: Hard start question

thanx much for going to all that trouble, vette. I hope I don't have to go there, but I think I most likely will.

Thanx lambert. Great tips there. Things are so tight, that I can't slide my finger between the headers and the starter, I think that's the issue. I doubt that a piece of sheet metal would help. I do have some header tape that I haven't put on yet..

The Jump was another vehicle, I guess the extra oomph of 2 batteries put me over the top - but it's not summer yet, either.

The vacuum is hooked up, new distributer, but you still make a n interesting point, it cold be bad from the box. I did not realize that could be part of the problem. Some research is in order here!

I cleaned the paint off the block (ground wire), but not sure about the bellhousing where the starter mounts, I will check that.

Still haven't driven the truck again to test; I've been busy and have the interior out right now.
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Old 02-24-2017, 12:43 AM   #38
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Re: Hard start question

Current capacity of a cable is based on its diameter, not length. As explained earlier the exact same current flows into and out of the battery when cranking the engine. You can experiment on yourself. Breathe in and out quickly through your nose. Plug a nostril with your thumb. Breathe in and out quickly through your nose. Which works better? If current capacity was based on length we could theoretically place the battery a few inches from the starter and run AWG 12 wires. Nope.

Moving back to the possible heat issue, maybe get some heat wrap and wrap the headers in the area of the starter?

As far as batteries go, I measure the battery box, decide on terminal location and buy the biggest battery I can find. I also expect them to be toast in 4 years.

Last edited by franken; 02-24-2017 at 01:10 AM.
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Old 02-24-2017, 11:57 AM   #39
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Re: Hard start question

Quote:
Originally Posted by VetteVet View Post
If you have the block drilled holes then I would just get a good delco or powermaster ministarter and bolt it up and solve this problem.
Rereading this, I noticed the Vette quote above.

Are you saying that since my block is drilled, that I could use any starter? Will they all work with my bellhousing? Will it line up and work with the flywheel? This would be much better than switching nose cones!

thanx
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Old 02-24-2017, 12:39 PM   #40
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Thumbs up Re: Hard start question

Lets see some pictures of the cables and wiring for this.

What does the wiring look like on the starter? The questions ask are the right ones and the answer seem to be right.

What has me thinking is your answer about putting the Jumper cables on it and it starts right up. How old is the starter that is on it now. Have you always had the heat shield on it?
It maybe you wore the starter out before you fixed the problem which was the cables to begin with.


If the motor is drilled and tapped for the starter bolts then yes just about any starter should work.
This is the one I used. The link.


http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s....php?p=4151565

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Old 02-24-2017, 01:18 PM   #41
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Re: Hard start question

Quote:
Originally Posted by dave`12 View Post
Rereading this, I noticed the Vette quote above.

Are you saying that since my block is drilled, that I could use any starter? Will they all work with my bellhousing? Will it line up and work with the flywheel? This would be much better than switching nose cones!

thanx
I don''t want to go on record saying that although from what I've read, they are the same. Where you run into trouble is when you're using the bell housing mounted starters. The mini-torque starters mostly all bolt up using the two straight across block holes. I would certainly try one as you can always return it if it doesn't fit.
The one posted by Andy 4639 looks to be a staggered mount and should also work.

If your bell housing blocks the starter nose cone from engaging the flywheel then of course you can't use any block mounted starter, but it would be easy to judge that just by looking. I've got a bell housing for my four speed corvette and I'll check it to see if it would allow a block mounted starter. I think the starter for the corvette is a block mount so I guess it wouldn't.

Tell hem what you have and ask them for the starter that will fit.
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Old 02-24-2017, 02:18 PM   #42
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Re: Hard start question

thanx again, gentlemen. I will test it out soon. The starter is new. The jump was at the battery. Wiring the same as all GM starters from the era. I don't think my block is staggered, but I would have to check to be sure. Good point about just trying it, I could just return it if it does not work. My fear was because I have had to fight to shim a starter on one of my Jeeps, and figured the same issue might come up here.
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Old 03-03-2017, 02:15 PM   #43
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Re: Hard start question

Finally got a chance for an extended drive. About 30 minute drive, sit 5 minutes, then tried. Turned over slow and would not start. It better start cold when I get off work!

I think I've had it with this.

Opinions on these exhaust manifolds please? I'm hoping they won't have issues with the crossmember as my engine is in the v6 location. Also, will I have any problems driving with just these to the muffler shop?

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Smooth...Raw,94194.html

Will these work ok with my mid 70's engine? I'm guessing that my brackets for my a/c that go to the headers will have to be replaced?

I know that there are many good tips here like the mini starter and the nose cone, but it's February in south Florida, I want this thing to be reliable in July. Time to quit throwing money trying to make it all work when I know that the headers are the problem.

Thanx for all opinions and suggestions.

Last edited by dave`12; 03-03-2017 at 02:39 PM.
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Old 03-03-2017, 04:06 PM   #44
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Re: Hard start question

Here is another option:

https://www.1aauto.com/exhaust-manif...=447179&y=1967
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Old 03-03-2017, 07:12 PM   #45
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Re: Hard start question

Quote:
Originally Posted by dave`12 View Post
Finally got a chance for an extended drive. About 30 minute drive, sit 5 minutes, then tried. Turned over slow and would not start. It better start cold when I get off work!

I think I've had it with this.

Opinions on these exhaust manifolds please? I'm hoping they won't have issues with the crossmember as my engine is in the v6 location. Also, will I have any problems driving with just these to the muffler shop?

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Smooth...Raw,94194.html

Will these work ok with my mid 70's engine? I'm guessing that my brackets for my a/c that go to the headers will have to be replaced?

I know that there are many good tips here like the mini starter and the nose cone, but it's February in south Florida, I want this thing to be reliable in July. Time to quit throwing money trying to make it all work when I know that the headers are the problem.

Thanx for all opinions and suggestions.
Have you tried an interupter switch for the power wire to the distributor to see if it's timing related?
EAsy test would be unplug the power wire and see how it cranks.
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Old 03-03-2017, 07:53 PM   #46
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Re: Hard start question

I backed the timing way back - were talking 2atc, and it will start. of course it runs like garbage like that. I have it at 8btc now, and would like more.

So yes it will allow an emergency start I guess, but I can't leave it like that.
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Old 03-03-2017, 08:09 PM   #47
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Re: Hard start question

THen wire in an interupter switch and leave your timing where it is.
Leave it off, get her spinning, flip the switch and she'll fire.
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Old 03-03-2017, 08:41 PM   #48
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Re: Hard start question

Hmmm, you got me thinking. So I just take the power to the HEI and put a switch into it? But wouldn't the engine still be fighting the timing even though there is no spark?
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Old 03-03-2017, 08:45 PM   #49
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Re: Hard start question

Nope!!
No spark makes for free spinning.
No spark, no combustion!
Use a heavy duty toggle switch.

If well hidden it makes for a nice theft deterrent too.
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Old 03-03-2017, 09:02 PM   #50
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Re: Hard start question

Quote:
Originally Posted by geezer#99 View Post
Nope!!
No spark makes for free spinning.
No spark, no combustion!
Use a heavy duty toggle switch.

If well hidden it makes for a nice theft deterrent too.
arrr- got to thinking after I replied, duh, no spark, no kick. Went to edit and you already beat me to it. So now I look stupid.

I guess I could get it hot, and unplug the HEI power. If it spins free, I should be good?

I wonder if a relay would be better? Seems a little dicey having the main power going to a toggle switch?

This also got me thinking. Trying to remember, but I think I used the power from my old points ignition. I may not be getting 12v? But it runs, and pretty good at that. I'm wondering now if that could be contributing.

Last edited by dave`12; 03-03-2017 at 09:24 PM.
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