Project "Sweet 16"

[skymangs]

I have a few questions that I'm sure folks on this board are smart on...

1. I understood that I'd have to move the motor back considerably (like 5-7"). The S10 was a 4.3L, and the 350 is mounted on the stock S10 mounts now. Looking at where the cab sits, I only have about 2.5~3" behind the motor to be able to move back and still fit the HEI distributor. If I move the motor back 3", I still won't have clearance for the clutch fan up front. Would need about 5" to do that. If I run a 16" electric, I don't even need to move the engine back. So is it even worth re-locating the drivetrain if I can't use a fan anyway? Will an electric fan and an aluminum radiator keep it cool enough in Missouri summers?

2. Right now on the stock S10 suspension, I have 8.25" ground clearance at the lowest point on the front fender. Does that sound normal for a S10 frame swap?

3. In order to use the stock radiator core support I will either need to clearance it for the power steering pump (would have to use a smaller radiator), or run it at a 15 deg angle. I am leaning twords angling it to facilitate as much radiator surface area as possible, what are some other methods folks have used? What would you guys recommend?

thanks for all the support, this board has made this project become a reality!

[seanery]

I'm interested in the fan question. I'm putting a Buick 401 in mine and plan on an electric fan. I would assume it to be at least as good as the stock fan, plus, with a thermostat it can stay on and cool the radiator after the ignition is off.
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[skymangs]

Nice, a nailhead.... Had a 64 Riv with a 425 for awhile. Loved it. I have run electric on several cars. my 69 GS had a dual fan from a late 90's Camaro, it kept cool in traffic, but we won't have the room for that setup on this project. My rock crawler runs a 16" electric, but it gets hot after 2 or 3 hours of wheeling. Just don't want to build him something that isn't reliable.

[99 to Life]

coming along nice. I fabbed my own rad support and angled it. Running Efan as well. I'd get the bed and fenders on and move everything as a whole. That will def dictated where everything will fall, but seeings you don't have them and or running boards you'll have to compromise. As far as height, I used drop spindles and blocks, so I'm lower than you. But I'm about 4" total off frame and my truck sits really low. Looks like you are right about where you need to be, but every inch will count when it comes to running an mechanical vs. Efan. Lastly, I and about everyone I have seen ended up cutting the front frame horns off, right at the PWS pump. For the back half of the frame I think I cut 5" off.

[skymangs]

Thanks 99, I really like your build as well. I'm glad to hear we are on the right track as far as cab placement and ride height go. After much deliberation, Michael and I have decided to go ahead and push the motor back 2 inches. (might as well make some space up there while we have it apart). That should help with manifold/header clearance.

I was tracking on cutting the frame horns right in front of the steering box, just wanted to get the cab lined up before I cut anything (Just a rule of thumb for me).

We are going to modify the stock support and angle it. Run an aluminum radiator and 16" puller fan. That should keep it cool if he runs a 160 deg stat in the summer.

We are also planning to run 2" drop spindles and 3" blocks, but I didn't want to modify any suspension till I see how it sits on the new frame. Didnt get too much done today. made templates for body mount brackets and started cutting them out of 14ga. steel. I'll post some pics tomorrow.

[skymangs]

Well, spent the last 2 evenings building the Cab mount brackets... I went a little different than most. Seems majority use square tube (sometimes 3/16 or 1/4" even)... I decided to make mine out of 14 gauge sheet, and box them in really nicely. That's a total of 20 individual pieces of steel, cut with a air cut off... very slow. I miss my plasma and Craftsman professional compressor from my shop in Colorado!

All finished, except the 2 1/4" holes for the S10 body mounts. Gonna tack them in place, and drill them on the frame I think.

Still on the fence about re-locating the drivetrain, trying to decide if I gain much room for headers, or just lose room for the steering shaft by moving it back.

Here's a couple pics of the brackets.

[spousta]

They look nice, but you sure .074 thick steel will hold a 800 pound cab even my factory 55 mounts are 3/16 or so, low speed side swipe might be dangerous. Just make sure you strength test them. Maybe doubl up cab to mount metal to keep the bolt ripping threw the mount, otherwise they look very good.

[mknittle]

Originally Posted by spousta

They look nice, but you sure .074 thick steel will hold a 800 pound cab even my factory 55 mounts are 3/16 or so, low speed side swipe might be dangerous. Just make sure you strength test them. Maybe doubl up cab to mount metal to keep the bolt ripping threw the mount, otherwise they look very good.

I doubt that an AD cab is any where near that heavy and the stock cab mounts{the stamped ones spot welded to the cab} are only 19 guage It is the shape that gives strength. that said I would have made the top a bit heavier. Just my $0.02

[mknittle]

Looking good

[spousta]

Originally Posted by mknittle

I doubt that an AD cab is any where near that heavy and the stock cab mounts{the stamped ones spot welded to the cab} are only 19 guage It is the shape that gives strength. that said I would have made the top a bit heavier. Just my $0.02

Fully assembled with seat and personel i garantee that cab is over 800lbs total, but i wasnt doubting the structural shape integrety but i think we both agree top needs to be thicker

[skymangs]

thanks Spousta and Mcnittle for the input. After your posts I went out and re-looked the frame brackets. Gonna grab some 1/8" steel today and plate the tops in that. Last thing I want is to underbuild. It just seemed to me (since the frame is only 1/8" steel) that 1/4" was overkill.

On that note... The shape of the mounts are designed with triangulation in mind. The legs are kicked out at a 20deg angle (I build rockcrawlers too) to negate the vertical stress on the frame, then boxed on top, outside, and inside, and seam welded inside and outside of every joint. I don't doubt the strength of what i've built, however... I didn't think of the cab bolts pulling through the top plate. Seems like cheap insurance to add some plate to the top.

[99 to Life]

mounts looks fine, an AD cab can easily be handled by two people. Add the doors and the interior, I'd add another person. Your moving right along. Wish I had access to my trucks everyday.

[mknittle]

Originally Posted by skymangs

thanks Spousta and Mcnittle for the input. After your posts I went out and re-looked the frame brackets. Gonna grab some 1/8" steel today and plate the tops in that. Last thing I want is to underbuild. It just seemed to me (since the frame is only 1/8" steel) that 1/4" was overkill.

On that note... The shape of the mounts are designed with triangulation in mind. The legs are kicked out at a 20deg angle (I build rockcrawlers too) to negate the vertical stress on the frame, then boxed on top, outside, and inside, and seam welded inside and outside of every joint. I don't doubt the strength of what i've built, however... I didn't think of the cab bolts pulling through the top plate. Seems like cheap insurance to add some plate to the top.

i think the rest will be fine. just the tops are all i would beef up 1/8 will be better. I don't see anything wrong with your design they look good

[mknittle]

I live within an hour of fordice creek and the rubicon trails.We don't do much rock crawling though.we go out in the Tahoe and Eldorado natonal forests more{less people}
Here is my 42' willys. i got it rebacktgether last summer.Nothing fancy!
buick 231 Sm420 dana 18/20 hybred 4.88 geared 44s both ends.

[skymangs]

Nice Willy's. I love the old Iron for wheelin. I run a 71 Scout II... It's nothing special either. 345/EFI/D60 and 14B/NP203-D300 doubler/40" Iroks/Ram assist/Hyrdoboost brakes. But we sure do have a good time in it!

[mknittle]

Thanks,
Nice Scout looks well thought out.I have always been a fan of the old scouts. always wanted to build a Scout 80.
I think i have seen that color somewhere though.

[skymangs]

Mknittle, I love the old scouts. I'm in several clubs. We pride ourselves on outwheeling jeeps on a regular basis...

CAB MOUNTS ARE IN! I don't know if I ever want to do that again though...

I ended up plating the tops of the brackets in 1/4", seam welding them all the way around. Had the cab off/on at least 6 times, and still had doubts as I was burning the tack welds in. I think I am happy with the final placement though. seems to be exactly square, wheels are centered in the fender openings. I haven't "Final welded" the brackets in yet, just a couple stitches to make sure they stay on. Tomorrow I'll cut the 2" holes and slide the cab on with the bushings in place to see where I'm at height wise. once I'm satisfied, I'll pull the cab (Again) and burn them in fully. I'll post pics tomorrow.

[skymangs]

Today's progress... I drilled my 2" holes in the mount brackets and put the cab back on (forgot to take pics of the mounts, but it will come back off tomorrow so I'll post some then). Fit like a glove. Cab is perfectly square on the chassis. Wheelwells are right where we wanted them, and final ride height (with no suspension mods yet) is 8" from the bottom of the front fender to the ground. We are planning on a 2/3 drop in the future. The following pics are of the cab on it's own mounts, with bolts in final position.

[skymangs]

If anyone has use for this info, The back of the cab (using a 91 short cab/long bed 2wd S10 frame) is exactly 21 7/8th inches in front of the center of the second (stock) bed mounting bracket. This centers the front wheels perfectly in the fenders.

[skymangs]

I also finally relocated the engine, now that I was absoulely sure where the cab would be. I removed the stock S10 motor mount pearches, bolted them to the block, and slid it back 2 1/4". Then put a couple good stitch welds on to hold it in place. I have about 2" behind the pass. valvecover, 1.5" behind the HEI distributor.

Tomorrow I will put some steel trussing around the backside of the pearches. Here's some pics of the final motor position (with GM standard 6 deg of driveline angle).

Tomorrow, finish seam welding the body mounts and motor mount pedistals, and figure out what I'm gonna do for a trans crossmember.

[skymangs]

I have a couple more questions as well...

1. Steering column. What is the common steering column being used? I looked at an S10 column, but I don't like all the cruise/wiper crap that's on it. Was thinking mid 70s chevy pickup with tilt. Anyone have recommendations or experience with what works well?

2. Driveshaft. The S10 has a 2 piece shaft with a carrier bearing. Not sure whether to have it cut and use it, or if I should go to a 1 piece shaft. What is the common solution for driveshaft?

Thanks,

[mknittle]

Originally Posted by skymangs

Mknittle, I love the old scouts. I'm in several clubs. We pride ourselves on outwheeling jeeps on a regular basis...

CAB MOUNTS ARE IN! I don't know if I ever want to do that again though...

I ended up plating the tops of the brackets in 1/4", seam welding them all the way around. Had the cab off/on at least 6 times, and still had doubts as I was burning the tack welds in. I think I am happy with the final placement though. seems to be exactly square, wheels are centered in the fender openings. I haven't "Final welded" the brackets in yet, just a couple stitches to make sure they stay on. Tomorrow I'll cut the 2" holes and slide the cab on with the bushings in place to see where I'm at height wise. once I'm satisfied, I'll pull the cab (Again) and burn them in fully. I'll post pics tomorrow.

We pride ourselves on outwheeling jeeps on a regular basis...
all in good fun my friend.

Gotta go do a bonsai show

[99 to Life]

looking good. For steering, I personally can't stand seeing s-10 or other tilt wheels inside the cab, looks completely out of place, but to each their own. I just cut the stock steering column down and used some ujoints going through s-10 headers. Kept the stock wheel, just moved it closer to the dash. Is 6* standard? I always heard 3* and or whatever makes the carb level. Looking good though, have you found a bed yet?

[99 to Life]

Oh and for driveshaft. I used a 4x4 s10 2piece shaft. At one point I was going to custom order a 1 piece, just haven't yet really. The 2wd 2piece won't work.
I have a nv3500 5 speed. Not sure if the length is different from the 700r4 and turbo350's, Im sure they are different.

[skymangs]

Thanks all. It is a learning experience. I've built a lot of cars, but never re-framed one.

On the steering column... I dont care for the newer columns in this cab. Was thinking originally that 68-72 chevy pickup column would work well. But the boy wants tilt. I don't think tilt was available till 73 in trucks. Was thinking something along these lines for steering wheel and column. (pic was robbed from "No Bucks 49's" Thread)

On the Driveshaft... I just don't like 2 piece shafts. Carrier bearings seem like they would interfere with proper driveline angle