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Old 05-03-2018, 06:22 PM   #1
dave`12
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Alternator question

I know this has been covered, and I've done searches, but I've found conflicting information, and different ways of doing it.

So I have to ask, as I'm afraid I will mess it up.

1967 c10. Factory setup - external regulator - factory ammeter (and I want to keep it working).

I want to go to the one wire setup. After looking over some threads, I have some questions.

What year and vehicle alternator should I buy? I've seen different answers. I want to reuse my original brackets. I don't want an alternator with a serpentine pulley or one mounted on the rear. And I saw something about fin direction.

Do I need to add a resistor? If so, where and which? Do I need to change any fuses (amperage).

Is there a thread with pics? I do much better with pics than diagrams. I found one, and was all set to go, but then Vette said something like it's not the best way.

I was hoping to find one in the FAQ, but did not see it.

I've also seen terms like 10SI, 12 SI, CS series, etc. I don't know what this means? Also seen info that 3 wire is better?

I just want a simple set up, does not have to be the latest and greatest.

I would be happy with a good link, not asking for the whole thing to be restated.

thanx

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Old 05-03-2018, 07:05 PM   #2
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Re: Alternator question

Well, if you get a 12SI alternator, you can just bolt in in place of your old alternator. You can also get a plug adapter kit that will bypass the external regulator and provides the correct pinout to plug in the alternator. 30 minutes later and you will be done.

Here is a link with info, and down at the bottom is a list of what to ask for at the parts store to get the alternator.

http://www.madelectrical.com/electri...elcoremy.shtml

Here is the adapter kit for bypassing the regulator and plugging in the alternator.

https://www.classicindustries.com/pr...s/ca27555.html
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Old 05-03-2018, 10:18 PM   #3
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Re: Alternator question

One might as why swap? As long as the current alt provides needed current, swapping won't be a benefit, and may not make you happier. People have been known to grumble about what RPM newer alts start charging, etc.
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Old 05-03-2018, 10:34 PM   #4
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Re: Alternator question

Thank you both, dmjlambert, that sounds just like what I was hoping to hear, gonna check out the links. thanx

franken, i've been having problems with mine. I have 2 big electric fans, HEI, A/C, etc. that seem to be drawing too much power. My ammeter always showed a big charge going on. New alternator and regulator 200 miles or so ago, and now one of them (not sure which, haven't tested yet) has already as vette said "bit the dust". I'm following his advice from before "run it till it blows, then go to the one wire setup".

he's smarter than me, so here I am...
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Old 05-03-2018, 11:10 PM   #5
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Re: Alternator question

Does anyone know what clock position I will need for the new alternator?
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Old 05-03-2018, 11:23 PM   #6
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Re: Alternator question

The purpose of the ammeter in the stock configuration is to tell you how much the battery is charging or discharging. The ammeter measures in which direction, and how much, current is moving between the battery and alternator.

"Normally" there would be discharging when running accessories without the engine running, because the current leaves the battery and goes through the 12 ga wire across the top of the radiator, past the connection where the alternator is connected, and on to the rest of the truck. And charging when the current leaves the alternator as the truck is running, and goes towards the battery to charge it, and also goes toward the cab to run various accessories. If you don't run accessories when the engine is off, then there will be just a little bit of charging for a little while after starting the truck, and then pretty much no current at all either direction along that wire that goes between the battery and alternator.

If your ammeter shows charging during normal truck use, it sounds like you may have connected accessories to the battery or to the terminal post over there by the battery.

In my opinion, it is best to
1. connect accessories that are a heavy draw directly to the alternator output or to the place where the alternator wire connects to the junction near the driver's side headlight where the big wires and the fused ammeter wire come together.
2. don't connect anything other than the battery, fused ammeter wire, and the wire that goes across the top of the radiator towards the alternator, at the passenger side fender terminal.
3. don't change the size of the 12 ga wire that goes across the top of the radiator between the battery and alternator. That wire functions as the ammeter shunt and is actually a part of the ammeter.
4. ensure you have a 6 to 9 inch 16 ga fusible link wire between the battery positive terminal and the passenger side fender terminal.
5. if you increase the load on the electric system, increase the ground wiring, too. There should be a ground terminal on the alternator and you can add a wire or increase the size of that wire to ground. Make it the same size as the wire running from the positive terminal of the alternator. 10 gauge should be damn near big enough for anything you want to run.

Last edited by dmjlambert; 05-04-2018 at 08:20 AM.
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Old 05-03-2018, 11:24 PM   #7
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Re: Alternator question

Quote:
Originally Posted by dave`12 View Post
Thank you both, dmjlambert, that sounds just like what I was hoping to hear, gonna check out the links. thanx

franken, i've been having problems with mine. I have 2 big electric fans, HEI, A/C, etc. that seem to be drawing too much power. My ammeter always showed a big charge going on. New alternator and regulator 200 miles or so ago, and now one of them (not sure which, haven't tested yet) has already as vette said "bit the dust". I'm following his advice from before "run it till it blows, then go to the one wire setup".

he's smarter than me, so here I am...
You need to go to the CS 144 to power all that stuff, and you'll love it. I can walk you through the conversion. A 12 SI would work but the CS works better.
Read this thread and decide what you want to do. I don't remember recommending a one-wire alternator to anybody. That's why I said the FAQ conversion would work but it's not the best way to do it.
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=417872
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Old 05-03-2018, 11:26 PM   #8
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Re: Alternator question

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Originally Posted by dave`12 View Post
Does anyone know what clock position I will need for the new alternator?
I don't think it will matter as long as the wire reach and don't get in the way of anything. It looks to me, although I can't tell for sure from the picture, the one you have is at 9 o'clock. If your new alternator is clocked something different than what you decide is the best fit, I understand you can re-clock them.
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Old 05-04-2018, 01:52 PM   #9
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Re: Alternator question

Thank you.

I looked up cs144, and wow, they are expensive, and they don't seem to have the right pulley.

I really need to keep this simple, and hoping to keep costs down. HEI, 2 fans, a/c, wipers, electric fuel pump, and headlights could be on at the same time (and that's probably what killed my current setup). So whatever that takes to do that is my choice.

I would like the easiest, cheapest thing that will work. Really want to get one with a v-pulley like I have to save the trouble of added cost and swapping them out.

If you walk me through it, I would be most appreciative and follow your advice.

So I guess the first thing is parts, could you tell me what to get?

Thanx again.
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Old 05-04-2018, 04:09 PM   #10
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Re: Alternator question

Easy, Cheap, Reliable. You can pick two.
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Old 05-04-2018, 04:37 PM   #11
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Re: Alternator question

dmjlambert brings up a potential problem, my radiator fans get power directly from the + post on the battery...

@ sunsoaked - yes, but I was really hoping to avoid paying 250-350 for an alternator. There must be a middle ground?

By the way, I don't believe I have an idiot light.

I found a video on u-tube. Looks dangerously easy. This can't be the best way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKq3YD4VYb4

Seems like a bigger hot wire to the alternator and a splice at the voltage regulator is all this guy needed (that and switching pulleys on the alternator).

It's not this easy, is it?

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Old 05-04-2018, 07:18 PM   #12
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Re: Alternator question

I only have opinions and take it with a grain of salt because I am not as experienced as VetteVet and many others on the forum. I have stock options, with mechanical fan and fuel pump, so I also don't have the same situation as you. With that said, these are my 2 cents worth of opinions. :-)

That forum post "Internal Alternator Wiring" for me was not very good. I was confused after reading it. I think you need resistor or diode or perhaps both. It is not clear to me. There's some more resistance or bigger resistor needed in the wires to protect the CS style alternator internal circuitry.

After reading all the information about alternator swaps, for me the clear choice was 12SI, because all I had to do is buy the alternator and buy the conversion adapters. One adapter you plug in in place of the external regulator. I didn't even remove my old regulator, it is still on the radiator support sitting there unhooked. The other adapter plugs in the 12SI alternator and provides a place to plug in the stock wiring harness. The bolts fit. The v-belt fits. Done.

The video. The guy is using some alternator of unknown part number from a junk car, and looks like he was partially through the process of installing and backed up to make the video with wires already cut off. It is hooked up in a hokey manner, with the clamp type emergency repair terminal on the battery. He uses wire nuts, does not use a fusible link, and specifically mentions that ground is not really important. He bent his alternator bracket and flipped it over to make it fit. He has an idiot light dash, so his application is different. If the objective is to get going with bubble gum and baling wire approach, I guess it is OK, but for me the whole procedure was alarming and I don't care for it. It'll work just fine, all you have to do is fix it when it doesn't work.

So, if it were my truck with the electric fans and fuel pump and other wizbang modern stuff, I would get a 12SI alternator and conversion adapters and hook it up. Change the clocking if necessary. I have not changed the clocking on mine, but it seems simple. Here is a video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91lfKtbU7ew Mad Electric website mentions you should use an impact wrench and gloves when removing the pully. I believe them. I would get some 10 gauge red and black wires and terminal rings from Autozone, solder the terminal rings on the wires, and connect them directly to the alternator output and alternator ground in addition to the stock wiring connections, and run those additional 10 gauge wires directly to the fan relays and fan ground, so there is a really good connection. I think the fans are the big power sucker on your truck and everything else would run fine off of the stock wiring. If you want the ammeter to operate normally, run all accessories from wires attached at the alternator or fuse block in the cab instead of at the battery. Hooking up at the battery is not an "issue" except it will mess with your ammeter.

From Mad Electrical
"12SI, 94 amp, at 3:00 (AC-DELCO # 321-266, Lester #7294-3)
Tell the auto parts counter person that The alternator is for a 1984 High performance Chevy Camaro, with 5.0L (305G) engine, 94amp alternator"
that would probably be my choice. 3:00 looks like it would keep the wires away from your engine. If you had to re-clock it, that job does not look too scary.

Last edited by dmjlambert; 05-04-2018 at 08:18 PM.
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Old 05-05-2018, 11:13 AM   #13
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Re: Alternator question

Thanx again.

Ok, I'm going to wait for vette to hopefully chime in again (no offense please, you are very helpful and MUCH better than I at this). But, why would not, there is agreement that he is the best

Anyway - here is what I'm looking at, please tell me if I'm correct.

The part number you gave (12SI, 94 amp, at 3:00 (AC-DELCO # 321-266 1984 High performance Chevy Camaro, with 5.0L (305G) engine, 94amp alternator) would give me the correct pulley and clock (I don't have air tools, but could go to a shop if I had too, and the video looks quite easy once the pulley is off).

By the way, my alternator is pretty close to the valve cover, are these bigger? If so, I might need to hunt down a longer belt? See pics below for clearance and clocking advice please.

Then the adapter kit you gave the link https://www.classicindustries.com/pr...s/ca27555.html

After that, splice together the blue and brown wires from the regulater.

As far as the actual alternator, I have red, black, white and blue wires.

Is the current red + one big enough? If not what gauge should I use? And should I wire my fan here?
Is my current black ground big enough?

Then white wire to the new alternator #1 terminal.
Then blue wire to the new alternator #2 terminal.

And finally are the following correct?

This will keep my ammeter working.
No idiot light - no problem.
No pulley swap.
No need to mess with the other 2 wires on the regulator.
No need for fuseable links, resistors, etc.
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Old 05-05-2018, 11:27 AM   #14
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Re: Alternator question

@ vettevet

I think I would like to go with the 12si for price and ease of installation. 94 amp.

Please see the prior post and tell me if I'm on the right track.

Thanx so much.
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Old 05-05-2018, 11:48 AM   #15
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Re: Alternator question

The adapter kit is available from a variety of places, Classic Industries is the place I got mine. It has 2 items, one is a block that you use for the end of the wire to replace the voltage regulator. Inside that block are the wires that connect the correct places together on the regulator plug. The other item in the adapter kit is the one that converts the old style alternator plug to new style. No spicing of any wires needed at the alternator or at the regulator or anywhere else to change alternator type.

I have seen adapters that include a resistor that let you convert from SI series to CS series. So I suppose that makes it a little more clear for me. If I were inclined to go with CS, I would get one of those adapters. Note this is just me, I'm sure there are others who feel I have some weird attraction to adapters. I suppose I just don't want to mess things up.

I do recommend making sure you have a fusible link at your battery just as in the normal stock configuration. Those are required for any setup you have.

"The part number you gave": it is from that Mad Electrical web page. Lots of good reading there.

I think 10 gauge wires from the alternator to the fans should be good. If it were me I would send both positive voltage and ground wires from the alternator all the way to the fans. I suppose you have a relay or relays to turn the fans on. Go that far with the 10 gauge wires, and route them neatly.

For belts, getting the correct belt may involve going to the parts store such as O'Reilly multiple times, returning one that doesn't fit right and getting another. Must have patience. I recommend always get Gates belts. They are more expensive, but they are the ones to get.

Note I am not against CS alternators, I just don't know enough about the wiring of them to give good advice, and I was confused by the information out there on the web. VetteVet would probably wonder why worry about it because it is simple, just get one and hook it up...
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Old 05-05-2018, 12:39 PM   #16
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Re: Alternator question

Quote:
Originally Posted by dave`12 View Post
@ vettevet

I think I would like to go with the 12si for price and ease of installation. 94 amp.

Please see the prior post and tell me if I'm on the right track.

Thanx so much.
I have been watching your thread for awhile and I am puzzled that you guys find it so hard to do the conversion but I understand because when I look under the hoods of these new cars I am amazed.

I googled the CS 144s and amazon has them for between $80 and $125 and of course, you can spend $300. If you ordered a mid eighties S-10 alternator you could get a 12 SI for $100 or close to that.

You really should get a larger wire for the output from the alternator but I think the 12 gauge would get you by. Ideally you need to get a main junction to replace the soldered one that the factory used.It would make things a lot easier and you could run your fans and everything from it and fuse them as needed.
This is a good diagram of using one to tie together all the power wires you need.

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And another one that doesn't show the ammeter wires. It shows a voltmeter which is simple to install, if you didn't care about the ammeter and of course you can have both easily.


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You should keep the junction on the right fender with the fusible link from the battery and the no. 1 ammeter wire connected there,
The red wire from the battery also called the SHUNT or the battery charge wire can stay the same size and just run it to the new main junction to tie into the alternator charging wire from the back of the alternator. I show it in the diagram I made below.

Here is another one that I like to show that is easy to wire. You will not need the wires from the old external voltage regulator plug, but you can use the brown wire and the red wire in the plug and just extend them to the new 12 SI, to terminals 1 and 2 on the 12 SI. When you read about jumping the brown /white and the red/blue wires that's all you are really doing is extending the brown and red wires to the alternator.

This is a diagram I made showing how to do that by just using the brown and red wires. All you need is the standard SI plug that Autozone sells for $5.00 and just splice the brown and red wires to it.

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I just took the brown wire from the regulator plug and the red wire from the regulator plug and ran them to the 12 SI alternator, brown to no.1 and red to no. 2 splicing them into the alternator plug.

For my junction I used a terminal block and jumpered all the red wires together in place of the soldered junction that the factory used. This is the unfinished picture of it. I added the headlight relay wiring and the fan relay wiring later. I also put three circuit breakers on it for those.

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Finally here is a diagram of the alternator with the wiring instructions as I explained above.


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Old 05-05-2018, 01:06 PM   #17
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Re: Alternator question

Here is a picture of my harness where I untaped the soldered junction.



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I kept all the wires after I cut them from the soldered junction and I also used all the other harness wiring for the cab and lights etc. My dash cluster was an idiot light cluster so I didn't have the ammeter wires but I added them because I plan on converting to the gauge cluster soon.

If you decided to get the CS 144 all you would need to do is solder an 85 ohm 5 watt resistor inline with the brown wire and connect it to the L terminal on the CS alternator and then connect the red wire (sensing) to the S terminal and upgrade the large output wire to and 8 gauge wire then run it back to the main junction.

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The two ammeter wires are shown with fuses, 4 amp, and the battery charge wire on the left of the diagram. You don't need to change that , It's a 12 gauge wire and will carry all the current you need to charge the battery and also it is big enough to power anything you need with the key off , or on accessory.

Most guys want to just run the large alternator output wire directly to the battery post but if you do this it will bypass the battery Shunt wire and the ammeter will not work.
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Old 05-05-2018, 06:45 PM   #18
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Re: Alternator question

Thanx
I guess we all have talents. One of yours is being able to look at bunches of wires and wiring diagrams and have them make sense. Me, I lose the trees for the forest. Tracing a wire from a junction to the ignition would require me to un-tape the entire harness. But with these old vehicles, once someone holds my hand, I usually get it right in the end.

So the plan:
I知 going to buy the conversion kit. My wires are white and blue (no brown and red) but the kit will take care of that. Plug in the alternator and jump the regulator with the kit. I know it could be done cheaper, but I知 more comfortable with this.
Then an S-12 alternator, either the one DMJLambert advised, or a mid-eighties S-10 depending on the clocking.
I知 going to hope the new alternator pulley and clocking fit, if not, I will swap the pulley with my current one and/or get a longer belt.
I知 going to remove my red output from my alternator, trace it where it currently goes (the junction?), and replace it with 8 gauge. Same thing with the ground (necessary?).
Below is a pic that I believe to be the junction in question (from another thread here). I would like to clean this up and like the terminal block in the vette picture. Where could I get this, and what should I ask for?

So, the power to the fan relays would run to this new junction (terminal block) instead of to the battery as it now does, with everything that痴 already there?
I知 assuming here that all the junction I would buy (terminal block) would do is allow a bunch of wires to be 都pliced together? So I just run all the existing wires into it (with the new 8 gauge output from the new alternator) and the power to the fans correct?
Beyond that, I really don稚 want to mess with my fan relays, they are in and work well, plus I mounted a box to protect them on the fender.
So here is a question, not sure I understand this step from vette:
添ou should keep the junction on the right fender with the fusible link from the battery and the no. 1 ammeter wire connected there,
Is the fusable link already there? If so, then I should not worry about it? Just wire everything as stated above and I would be good?
Thanx again, and sorry that I知 so dense. I love this truck, I have literally hundreds of hours into it and would really hate to burn it to the ground that痴 why I知 so careful.
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Old 05-05-2018, 07:04 PM   #19
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Re: Alternator question

Here is what I think the wiring will be:
Note: no added fusable link, assuming it is there. And ammeter still working (hopefully).
And, as you see, I have no talent as an artist either
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Old 05-05-2018, 07:45 PM   #20
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Re: Alternator question

I found this while looking for the adapter kit at LMC. Looks like alternator part number
362724 (top left) would bolt right in (no need to worry about clocking etc.)??

http://www.lmctruck.com/icatalog/cb/full.aspx?Page=190
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Old 05-05-2018, 08:36 PM   #21
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Re: Alternator question

I'd ask for voltage measurements w/ all hungry accessories running. The OP states something has failed, but doesn't know what. Not a single fact related to the actual problem has been posted in the entire thread.
This is a recipe for creating problems, not solving them.
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Old 05-05-2018, 09:59 PM   #22
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Re: Alternator question

Quote:
Originally Posted by dave`12 View Post
I found this while looking for the adapter kit at LMC. Looks like alternator part number
362724 (top left) would bolt right in (no need to worry about clocking etc.)??

http://www.lmctruck.com/icatalog/cb/full.aspx?Page=190

Looking at your picture from LMC and the one you posted above with your regulator plug I am confused, I can see the brown red white and blue wires in the plug, and the kit you are getting just jumps the brown and white together ,and the red and blue together,to extend the brown wire and the red wire to the alternator. Then you have to connect the blue and white wires to the alternator, so why not just run the brown and red wires to the alternator and forget the kit.

Here is what I got at autozone for $5.00 and just spliced the brown and red wires to the brown and red wires on it and then I just plugged it into the alternator.

My alternator is on the passenger side like yours and the clocking is at 6 and 12. I just ran new wires to the terminal strip and connected the red wire to the alternator output wire there and the brown wire I connected to the brown wire that I took off the ald regulator plug.



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This is the jumpered wires on the regulator plug.


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The circled part is the soldered junction which I can see in your picture above with the four red wires and the black (ammeter) wire.

The four red wires go to the alternator, battery, the regulator plug, and the cab. The black ammeter wire (shown as gray in the picture with the fuse) also goes to the cab to the instrument cluster plug.

The battery terminal on the positive battery has a smaller wire which is a fusible link. This wire runs over to the right fender to a junction bolt which has the battery charging wire and the other ammeter wire connected together. The wires are not color coded in this picture but you should be able to figure out which is which. The black wire with the cone shaped fuse holder is the ammeter wire that runs straight to you instrument cluster plug. The fusible link runs from the battery positive post over to the fender bolt and the other wire is the battery charging wire that goes to the main junction.

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The red charging wire will go to the main junction that replaces the soldered junction. Usually it runs across the top of the radiator in the harness with the headlights and the park/turn lights. You don't have to do anything with it because it only charges the battery, but you have to make sure it will reach the main junction, so mount the junction to accommodate that.

You will need to relocate the fan(s) power wires to the main junction so that they are connected to the alternator output wire. 8 gauge

Then run the fan power wire or wires to the fan relay or relays to the number 30 terminal on the relay(s). You will need to have a fuse inline with the wire and a 30 amp is the normal size.

I don't know how you wired the fans to the relays or if you used a kit but if you could do that then you should be able to wire the alternator. Once you get into it and start recognizing the wires and their paths it will all come together.
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Old 05-06-2018, 11:18 AM   #23
dave`12
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Re: Alternator question

Thanx, I think it is starting to make sense.

My fan relays were a kit that I bought with the fans and installed by a friend who has since moved away. Really just power, a fuse (or link), and a toggle switch in the dash.

So, I will take the junction by the drivers headlight, and run all those wires into a terminal block that I will mount where you did. Then, I will take the power to my fans that is currently on the battery and add a 30amp fuse and send it there as well. Then the little adapter at the back of the alternator that you show.
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Old 05-06-2018, 01:06 PM   #24
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Re: Alternator question

Quote:
Originally Posted by dave`12 View Post
Thanx, I think it is starting to make sense.

My fan relays were a kit that I bought with the fans and installed by a friend who has since moved away. Really just power, a fuse (or link), and a toggle switch in the dash.

So, I will take the junction by the drivers headlight, and run all those wires into a terminal block that I will mount where you did. Then, I will take the power to my fans that is currently on the battery and add a 30amp fuse and send it there as well. Then the little adapter at the back of the alternator that you show.
Now you're talking.
How are your fans controlled? It sounds like you have to turn them on with the toggle switch when you see the temperature climbing. If so you should add a temperature switch to your intake or to the right cylinder head to turn on the relay when the temperature reaches the preset. Probably 185 or 190*
Super easy to do and you will have to rewire the relay with the power wire and the 30 amp fuse inline.
Just post up and I'll walk you through it if you want me to. VV
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Old 05-06-2018, 06:28 PM   #25
dave`12
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Re: Alternator question

Yes, it is a toggle switch inside. I made a metal plate where the heater controls went (no heater) and it has 2 toggle switch locations. We put one for the electric fuel pump and one for the power to the fans because we didn't know how to set up an auto temperature related kick in for the fans.

It seems to work, but when this is finished, I just may take you up on that offer.

thanx
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