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Old 05-30-2018, 11:05 AM   #1
blazer2007
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panel adhesive in colder weather ?

I usually do any work on my trucks in the fall from Oct-March and have to do the floor on my 1980 truck. I,ve done it with a welder before but was thinking of trying adhesive. IT wouldn,t be 21 C. at that time, maybe but I was wondering if the adhesive would work if I left it clamped longer and used a heat gun. Shop is not heated. I did read that at 10 C. it would take 7 days to cure.Not a show truck or nothing. If not back to welding.
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Old 05-30-2018, 04:34 PM   #2
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Re: panel adhesive in colder weather ?

Your seat and your seat belts are attached to the floor. I'd not use adhesive on a safety item like that at all. Read the other post on adhesives. Adhesive is very strong under ideal conditions. Add moisture to the mix and corrosion can creep into the glue joint. Once it gets there the bond can fail very quickly. It also relies on near perfect preparation. I don't see that happen very often. Do yourself and any future owners a favor and weld anything related to seats and belts.
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Old 05-31-2018, 12:52 AM   #3
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Re: panel adhesive in colder weather ?

The modern day adhesives have extremely high shear and tensile strength so I wouldn't hesitate to glue in a floor, or even a roof skin. Welding is for those that haven't yet learned about glue as they are more corrosion resistant and don't warp , just to mention a couple advantages.

Follow the TDS always...including application and dry temps. Chemical reactions have a "window" that determines dry times. Cooler temps retard dry times and may affect full cure...just like welding with low voltage...bound to fail.
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Old 05-31-2018, 09:02 AM   #4
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Re: panel adhesive in colder weather ?

Thanks, I found some 3M sheets online to do some reading
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Old 05-31-2018, 10:53 AM   #5
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Re: panel adhesive in colder weather ?

We apply more adhesives of various varieties in a day than any body shop does in a year. While I agree they are strong all it takes is moisture infiltration to start a rapidly decaying installation. It doesn't have to get into the joint. If it gets corrosion next to the joint it will creep under. On safety components I'd not risk it.

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The modern day adhesives have extremely high shear and tensile strength so I wouldn't hesitate to glue in a floor, or even a roof skin. Welding is for those that haven't yet learned about glue as they are more corrosion resistant and don't warp , just to mention a couple advantages.

Follow the TDS always...including application and dry temps. Chemical reactions have a "window" that determines dry times. Cooler temps retard dry times and may affect full cure...just like welding with low voltage...bound to fail.
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Old 05-31-2018, 04:58 PM   #6
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Re: panel adhesive in colder weather ?

http://www.thedrive.com/news/15027/c...placement-roof

http://www.repairerdrivennews.com/20...ed-roof-video/

IMO, glue is for those that don't follow OEM guidelines.

There is not a chance in hell I would glue a floor in place.
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Old 05-31-2018, 06:40 PM   #7
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Re: panel adhesive in colder weather ?

Saturns had the roof glued on like that from the factory and many other cars too, the glue didn't fail, the application did.

You know another thing about that which caught my eye, the windshield! The windshield is a structural part of that car and it's not a attached anywhere, I am thinking that played as big a part as the roof coming off.

We just put a quarter on a 2018 BMW following manufactures guidelines, it was glued over the entire thing even at the B and C pillar seams! It had rivets here and there, even POP RIVETS! We went right by the manufacturers guidelines to the letter, bought ever rivet from them, and the adhesive.

We did a 7 series a number of years ago where the frame rail was bonded right behind the front bumper reinforcement! That was ALL that held the spliced frame rail on, a metal backing inside glued in, that was IT.

I really have to wonder what the big deal is when there is very close to ZERO collision design in these trucks, and what they could have used is 50-70 years old thinking!

Out side of where the seat is bolted and the seat belts, done properly that adhesive is going to hold a LOT better than the rusty welds that are there now.

Brian
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Old 05-31-2018, 08:38 PM   #8
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Re: panel adhesive in colder weather ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
Saturns had the roof glued on like that from the factory and many other cars too, the glue didn't fail, the application did.

You know another thing about that which caught my eye, the windshield! The windshield is a structural part of that car and it's not a attached anywhere, I am thinking that played as big a part as the roof coming off.

We just put a quarter on a 2018 BMW following manufactures guidelines, it was glued over the entire thing even at the B and C pillar seams! It had rivets here and there, even POP RIVETS! We went right by the manufacturers guidelines to the letter, bought ever rivet from them, and the adhesive.

We did a 7 series a number of years ago where the frame rail was bonded right behind the front bumper reinforcement! That was ALL that held the spliced frame rail on, a metal backing inside glued in, that was IT.

I really have to wonder what the big deal is when there is very close to ZERO collision design in these trucks, and what they could have used is 50-70 years old thinking!

Out side of where the seat is bolted and the seat belts, done properly that adhesive is going to hold a LOT better than the rusty welds that are there now.

Brian
What Brian said... read it again.
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Old 05-31-2018, 10:32 PM   #9
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Re: panel adhesive in colder weather ?

The difference is that the OE determined those repair guidelines.

Quote:
We just put a quarter on a 2018 BMW following manufactures guidelines, it was glued over the entire thing even at the B and C pillar seams! It had rivets here and there, even POP RIVETS! We went right by the manufacturers guidelines to the letter, bought ever rivet from them, and the adhesive.
Kinda my point, you follow the OE guidelines. Does Honda or GM want their uni sides bonded in place with pop rivets?
If you found yourself in court which would you rather have as a defense, the OE guidelines you followed failed, or the repair process you made up along the way?

Its in my opinion that a product/application failure with adhesives is far greater then a failure due to welding.
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Old 06-01-2018, 12:09 AM   #10
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Re: panel adhesive in colder weather ?

My opinion as well. It's not to be risked on an owner invented application.

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Its in my opinion that a product/application failure with adhesives is far greater then a failure due to welding.
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Old 06-01-2018, 12:40 AM   #11
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Re: panel adhesive in colder weather ?

I do think you guys are right, applying the adhesives is easier to fail. My whole thing is, where exactly on a 60-70 year old truck would it really make a difference? I don't think it's likely that in a collision it would make any difference.

When I drive my 59 Rambler every day, I just look at as riding a motorcycle. There is ZERO relation between a late model car and how it's built with a 70 year old car or truck.

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Old 06-01-2018, 08:54 AM   #12
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Re: panel adhesive in colder weather ?

Well I,m notdoing the whole floor just the corners where your feet are,where is usually leaks at the vents.It does say you can weld on it as well . I have a rust hole starting on my 89 jeep cherokee so I will try that first
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Old 06-01-2018, 09:31 AM   #13
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Re: panel adhesive in colder weather ?

Plain and simple it's never to be risked on structure that has any safety implications. Go ahead and glue rockers or fender patches on our trucks. Brian I've followed your work here over the years and you are a master of your trade but when it comes to adhesives they are not the end all and be all of body repair. They have their applications. I have personally experienced the corrosion failure of quality adhesives that were meticulously applied. I've seen the same professionally. While on the manufacturing side the problems are not extensive when they do happen they are expensive. We never use them in an application that will hold a seat or a seat belt. Moisture infiltration is often involved when there is a failure and starts from a tiny spot.

Over the years I've been involved with epoxies, urethanes both single component moisture cure and two part and methacrylates. Bonds have been steel to steel, fiberglass to steel and other fiberglass, wood to steel and also fiberglass and in the mix I've seen some other plastics and rubbers.

For an engineered application where strict guidelines are followed the correct adhesive is the proper repair. The amount of adhesive, application pattern,type of panel either whole or partial, panel location, squish out, joint spacing (thickness of adhesive), type of adhesive, cleanliness, Cleaners, flash times, temperatures, cure times, surface finish, substrate material, humidity and order of operations are all significant factors depening on the particular adhesive. Any can become an issue in a joint failure.

A trained tech applying these as per manufacturers specs (both the vehicle and the product) with everything done exactly right and you will have a quality repair. Here we are talking about owner invented non engineered applications that will some day go down the road to another owner.

Yup a weld can be screwed up too but in my opinion it's a lot more forgiving and in this case is the actual repair specification.

Take a read through the factory assembly manual for the 67-72 trucks. The number of spot welds and placement is pretty carefully documented. Even then there was a plan and it's prudent to follow it even today. Personally I've never heard of this generation of truck being a death trap. Best to keep them the way they were designed as it worked well.
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Old 06-01-2018, 09:44 AM   #14
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Re: panel adhesive in colder weather ?

I hear you Stingray, you are absolutely correct and I respect your knowledgeable understanding of the subject. My point is not to suggest it as replacing welding on everything, not by a long shot. But it IS an alternative for many many repairs on these trucks. These floor patches the OP is talking about, I think it's perfect.

Obviously if proper application isn't used, just like poor welds or poor location cuts and all that isn't used, it isn't as good as it could be. We can't cover every single guy in every single garage. If the liability for us suggesting ANYTHING were anything like us doing it in a shop for customers........................these forums would be gone.

I rather see a guy finish his truck gluing in some floor patches, or cowl patches or door skin patches and get that truck on the road with his smiling face behind the wheel than seeing him never get it done because he doesn't have access to a welder.

On the safety of these trucks, I seriously doubt there was more than a minute and a half spent on safety designed into these trucks. A 2015 Honda Civic is safer than a 1955 1 ton by 5000% for goodness sakes. When I think of the stuff I see everyday in the collision industry with my Rambler parked out at the curb, I AM taking a chance driving it for sure! But that's all good, I look at the odds and my driving methods are a hell of a lot more important.

Brian
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