A Legal Discussion - Rosette Rivets

[OldGMJon]

That one 63' with rosettes must have been an anomaly or a redo...

[61 apache 10]

1961, spot welded

[dragn91]

My 66 gmc has rosettes and it's rusted behind so I have to figure out how to fix it legally.

[pimpston65]

Originally Posted by dragn91

My 66 gmc has rosettes and it's rusted behind so I have to figure out how to fix it legally.

dump it on me!!! i like rust...

[Captainfab]

I have a '62 cab and I checked 3 of 6 '63's and they all are spot welded. One of them looked like the spot welds were coming loose. That may explain a few of '63's and earlier with either round or rosette rivets. I checked a '64 cab and a '65 truck and both of those had round rivets. A couple of my '66's that I checked both had rosette rivets.

[1963c-10]

All my 63's are spot welded and Baltimore trucks.

But I happened to take some pics of a 1965 truck being parted out awhile back and it has rivets, but they don't look like the rosettes and is also from Baltimore. This truck was very low mileage and was a shame the guy blew it apart to part out. It was a cherry unmolested custom cab low mileage truck. It was also a very low # truck.

Pic on the left is the 65 c-10
Pic on the right is my 63 short fleet, my stepside looks identical to this as does Austin's 63 which is stored at my house.

[DLW]

So no 66's had round? Mine are round. I have feeling mine was removed by PO for restoration. It matches the frame and title.

[bruceman1968]

Here is a excerpt from the link I posted to the People vs Steffens case.

Since 1965, all American-made General Motors cars have used them exclusively to attach the VIN plates. Chrysler and Ford began using them a couple of years later. Foreign cars made outside the United States use only circular pop-head rivets. However, foreign cars assembled in the United States use the rosette rivets.

If correct, it would be actual year 1965(give or take a month??) not Model Year 1965. So 1965 MY trucks(or cars) built in Sept, Oct, Nov, or Dec of 1964 should(?) have round rivets. If any of you 65 guys know your build month, it will be interesting to see if it can be determined when the rosette rivet use started at each assembly plant and what month.

[pimpston65]

saw this one on a 64 burban

[RKS0069]

Hi everyone. I need to get my vin # inspected in order to get my truck registered in Oregon but I removed the vin plate for body work not realizing I should not of. now I'm not sure what to do. the plate had round rivets that I am positive were original but it seams they should have been rosette rivets? Will I be okay with just using round rivets again? Also I've read that there should be a vin on the frame but I don't see one on mine. On top of all that I can't seem to decipher my vin with all the decoders I've found. I'm referring to my 1962 GMC 1500, at least that is what I believed it was for the last 10 plus years I've owned her. Any help would be much appreciated.

[Classic v6 GMC's]

Originally Posted by RKS0069

Hi everyone. I need to get my vin # inspected in order to get my truck registered in Oregon but I removed the vin plate for body work not realizing I should not of. now I'm not sure what to do. the plate had round rivets that I am positive were original but it seams they should have been rosette rivets? Will I be okay with just using round rivets again? Also I've read that there should be a vin on the frame but I don't see one on mine. On top of all that I can't seem to decipher my vin with all the decoders I've found. I'm referring to my 1962 GMC 1500, at least that is what I believed it was for the last 10 plus years I've owned her. Any help would be much appreciated.

A 62 gmc should have round rivets.

[62stepside longbox]

Originally Posted by RKS0069

Also I've read that there should be a vin on the frame but I don't see one on mine.

Gmc's don't have vin numbers on the frame, Chevy's do.

[ImpalaJim]

Ive cut and welded smoothed out so much im thinking on taking it off and welding in

[Palf70Step]

My 64's is welded on.

[yelmer]

could get the rivets through the parts dept ? I think you could?

[aotte1]

Two 64's, both welded. One St Louis and other Oakland ( build May or June)

[1971 GMC SHORTY]

all my 60-66 in California have been spot welded
67 and up had Rossette Rivets
Ive Had over 20++ trucks 1960-1966
15+ 1967 1972 trucks

[yelmer]

My 66 from California had rivets ?

[chevylookin]

Bought my 64 Chevy 1/2 Fleet in 2001. Produced late 63 in Freemont. I was 22 years old at the time. Welded vin was hanging on by one by spot on the top. I got tired of it flappin around and scratching me so I took it off not knowing any better and tossed it into the glove box. Fast forward several months. I get pulled over in town one night for doin 5 over the speed limit. Even though I was sober as a priest on Sunday and had my volunteer fire fighter gear in the back of the crumbling wood bed, I was hauled out onto the curb and read the riot act when I was dumb enough to give them permission to search the vehicle and they found the VIN tag in the glove box. I was obviously stealing and chopping up old cars and they impounded the truck. The next day, I went to the city yard, paid the fees and showed them proof of ownership with a copy of the bill of sale. The fact that I had insurance and registration matching the vin in the glove box apparently wasnt enough at the time of impound. Anyways, They made me set up an appointment with the CHP to take the truck down to their facility and A cool lady cop came out with a special tool/ rivet gun and she reattached my VIN, now with round rivets. So my truck has had the welded and round rivets !!

[stsalvage]

every state is different.But most of the time if your honest and up front with the officer.Most can careless.If your worried then find the Vin number on the frame clean it up so when you pop your hood on your truck the officer will look down and look at the plate and see that its the same.Most states Know now days that old car's are being token apart.If they where not so greedy about the ribbits we all do it by law but its a money and greed thing.I know of a guy in New England state that has a lot of old dazy ribbits sells them 2 for 80.00 bucks.Just a thought

[SSpeed66]

Both of my Canadian 61 cabs have round rivets, but they are not pop rivets. The same rivets are used on the cowl tags also

[Ken Cook]

I have a 63 C-10 and they are spot welds that look original.

[Robert Haas]

where is the welded option for your poll?

[Dino575]

TITLE 18. CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I. CRIMES
CHAPTER 113. STOLEN PROPERTY

18 USCS § 2321 (2003)

§ 2321. Trafficking in certain motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts

(a) Whoever buys, receives, possesses, or obtains control of, with intent to sell or otherwise dispose of, a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part, knowing that an identification number for such motor vehicle or part has been removed, obliterated, tampered with, or altered, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

107 A.L.R.5th 567

SUMMARY: Illegally removing or altering a vehicle identification number (VIN) or selling or possessing a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part with an altered or removed VIN constitutes a crime in most states. In order to impose liability, state courts normally require a culpable mental state on the part of the defendant in altering or removing a VIN or in possessing a vehicle or vehicle part with an altered or removed VIN. Some states, however, do not require any culpable mental state on the part of the defendant when selling a vehicle or vehicle part with a removed or altered VIN.

For example, in State v. Smith, 972 S.W.2d 476, 107 A.L.R.5th 791 (Mo. Ct. App. W.D. 1998), the defendant sold a vehicle that was subsequently found to have an altered VIN. The defendant claimed the state was required to establish that he had knowledge of the VIN alteration at the time the sale occurred. The court held that while knowledge was required for possessing a vehicle with an altered VIN, the statute's plain language indicated that knowledge was not required when selling a vehicle with an altered VIN.

Most state courts held that knowledge of the altered or removed VIN is required before the defendant can be convicted of altering or removing a VIN or possessing or selling a vehicle or vehicle part with an altered or removed VIN ( § 10[a] ). However, a few courts have concluded that from a plain reading of the applicable statute, knowledge of the altered or removed VIN is not required when altering or removing a VIN or possessing or selling a vehicle or vehicle part with an altered or removed VIN ( § 10 ). Courts singled out a number of particular circumstances as tending to establish knowledge of an altered or removed VIN on the part of the defendant. For instance, knowledge was found to exist where there is physical evidence of the VIN alteration as well as proof the defendant tried to sell the vehicle or had possession of the vehicle for a long period of time ( § 10[c] ). Knowledge was also proved by evidence that the defendant was warned of a missing or altered VIN and did not correct the defect or where the police found evidence of a "chop shop" and other dismantled vehicle parts in the defendant's possession ( § 10[c] ). To the contrary, courts found the defendant did not have knowledge of an altered or removed VIN where, although there was evidence of possession or sale of the vehicle, there was no direct or physical evidence the defendant altered or removed the VIN ( § 10[d] ). Knowledge was also not proved where the defendant merely leased a building to a person operating a "chop shop" and did not know what was happening inside the building ( § 10[d] ).

Along with the culpable mental state requirement, courts also addressed the criminal conduct involved in altering or removing a VIN or possessing or selling a vehicle or vehicle part with an altered or removed VIN. For example, state courts found that a VIN was altered or removed even if the concealed VIN was not removed or the vehicle bore an additional VIN not affixed by the manufacturer ( § 12[a] ).

[Dino575]

The move to rosette rivets were mandated by our federal government in 1962 and allotted a 24 month grace period to the big 3, for them to start attaching vin numbers with said rivets and that's why you see the federal statute I posted above. Hope this helps