Engine ran for a second, died, now no spark.

[vetnat]

Hi. A little background. 1961 GMC half ton (Canadian, so like a chevy) with a 235 with points. Has been sitting for approx. 25 years, so have been trying to get it to run as a starting point. Actually, not sure if it ran when it was parked? Essentially all serviceable items have been replaced or rebuilt (new oil, new plugs and wires, new coil, new battery, distributor components replaced, new fuel filter, rebuilt carb, etc.)

Has always turned over good. Is getting fuel. Originally had no spark, but turns out previous owner had added a jumper wire that grounded the coil for some reason. Took that wire off, then had spark. Today, got the engine to catch by using starter fluid sprayed into the carb. Yay! After 5 times catching and dying right away, got the engine to run for about a second or so, then it died. Ever since, there is no spark. No spark coming from the coil to distributor wire.

I'm working by myself, so am mostly using a remote starter switch (with key in run position). Turns over fine using the key too. So, how did I suddenly lose spark with the engine running??

A secondary question, where is the ballast resistor wire supposed to be? Pictures any one? Coil is for use with external resistor, not sure if there still is one? How could I test?

Thanks!

[Brandons63]

Read the previous posts on coils and spark from the last few days. The resisted wire is the stretch between the + side of the coil to the starter solenoid. There are also wiring diagrams in the last few posts that will help you out. Have you replaced any of the other wire than the one that was grounded out? You may want to follow the diagram, ring out the two stretches of wire(the one from coil to starter and starter to firewall harness) and double check they aren't shorted ASLO I had this problem... I wasn't using ring eyelets on my coil wires.. Instead I was using the original wire from distributer to coil. It had a 90* spade on it that was turned and touching the coil. That took forever to find out.. To test, grab the multimeter, set to 20vdc disconnect the + from coil, hold your remote start switch in the start pos, and u should have around 12vdc there at the coil wire. Then when you let back to run it should drop to 9vdc.. The wire you are looking for should be the sleeved pink wire. The coil will be fine without being externally resisted, it's the points that could be welded shut. May want to look at them. I'm curious if you set your points? And preset the initial timing? It shouldn't be barely running especially on ether.

[vetnat]

Thanks. I will try and find the posts you mentioned. Now that you mention it, I did replace the wire from the solenoid to the coil, just with regular 14g wire. The original wire was broken at the connector to the solenoid. So, I guess I probably removed the resistor wire myself! This may be a stupid question, but there is only 1 wire connected to each post on the coil, is that correct?

In your reply, you say to remove the wire from the positive terminal on the coil, then check voltages when cranking, and when in run position. Will that work with the positive wire disconnected?

I know the wire going from the solenoid to the firewall connector looks horrible, insulation is worn away in many places. I am going to have to open up the harness to get to it. If I try a jumper from the positive battery terminal to the positive terminal on the coil, I bypass all that, correct? Anybody have a good way to open up the harness, or do I just slit it with a utility knife and peel it open? What is the wire going to the firewall connector, I assume it goes to the starter switch? Since the engine is cranking, doesn't that mean the starter switch is working OK?

I gapped the new points with a feeler gauge, to .019 or whatever the spec is for new points. As for timing, I don't know how to set timing in an engine that isn't running. I have only seen it done in a running engine, with a timing light.

I watched the distributor while cranking, I could see the points opening and closing, so they are not welded shut.

[jtrichard]

" The resisted wire is the stretch between the + side of the coil to the starter solenoid. " WRONG!!!!....... The wire from the solenoid to the coil is REG. wire ( this is how the HOT start works) the 14g you have ran is more than good ....THE wire from the firewall TO the solenoid is the resistor wire the one that " looks horrible" it does have different insulation then the other wires ... And yes one wire on each side of coil.... Run a temp. wire from the + side of the battery to the coil (try starting and or check for spark) and that will tell you if you have intermittent problems with wiring in the truck .... Just remember the only way to shut the engine off is to remove that jumper...... One other thing that will kill spark is if there is any oil on the points from adjusting them

[Brandons63]

Originally Posted by jtrichard

" The resisted wire is the stretch between the + side of the coil to the starter solenoid. " WRONG!!!!....... The wire from the solenoid to the coil is REG. wire the 14g you have ran is more than good ....THE wire from the firewall TO the solenoid is the resistor wire the one that is "frayed" it does have different insulation then the other wires

Yeah foot in mouth there. I was half asleep. The starter solenoid sends the 12v to coil on crank via jumper wire to + on coil. then is resisted down to 9 volts via the resisted pink with white shielding from firewall to starter. My bad

[jtrichard]

I was not trying to be an ASS just did not want VETNAT chasing his tail looking in the wrong place and changing the res. wire to regular wire causing him more hair pulling LOL

[Brandons63]

Originally Posted by vetnat

Thanks. I will try and find the posts you mentioned. Now that you mention it, I did replace the wire from the solenoid to the coil, just with regular 14g wire. The original wire was broken at the connector to the solenoid. So, I guess I probably removed the resistor wire myself! This may be a stupid question, but there is only 1 wire connected to each post on the coil, is that correct?

In your reply, you say to remove the wire from the positive terminal on the coil, then check voltages when cranking, and when in run position. Will that work with the positive wire disconnected?

I know the wire going from the solenoid to the firewall connector looks horrible, insulation is worn away in many places. I am going to have to open up the harness to get to it. If I try a jumper from the positive battery terminal to the positive terminal on the coil, I bypass all that, correct? Anybody have a good way to open up the harness, or do I just slit it with a utility knife and peel it open? What is the wire going to the firewall connector, I assume it goes to the starter switch? Since the engine is cranking, doesn't that mean the starter switch is working OK?

I gapped the new points with a feeler gauge, to .019 or whatever the spec is for new points. As for timing, I don't know how to set timing in an engine that isn't running. I have only seen it done in a running engine, with a timing light.

I watched the distributor while cranking, I could see the points opening and closing, so they are not welded shut.

Yes one wire on the each side of coil is correct. The + is the one that goes to starter (left side of solenoid looking at the front I believe) and the other wire is the ground that goes to the distributer. To set the timing roughly before you start is first get the number one piston to TDC on the compression stroke. Pull the cap and note the position of the rotor contact. This should be pointing to the number one contact on the cap. From there you can make sure your wires are placed correctly using the firing order clockwise on cap 1 5 3 6 2 4. This will get you in the ball park. So it sounds like what you need to do is ring out the wire from the firewall to the starter. If you have to rewrire it you can pull the contact from the plug and take it to Napa. They sell new ones there. As far as opening up the sleeve, I would use a pair of dikes or side cutters because you have more control and are less likely to damage the wires. I hope I'm leading you in the right direction and u get it fixed.

[Brandons63]

Originally Posted by jtrichard

I was not trying to be an ASS just did not want VETNAT chasing his tail looking in the wrong place and changing the res. wire to regular wire causing him more hair pulling LOL

Yeah COPY

[padresag]

Originally Posted by Brandons63

Read the previous posts on coils and spark from the last few days. The resisted wire is the stretch between the + side of the coil to the starter solenoid. There are also wiring diagrams in the last few posts that will help you out. Have you replaced any of the other wire than the one that was grounded out? You may want to follow the diagram, ring out the two stretches of wire(the one from coil to starter and starter to firewall harness) and double check they aren't shorted ASLO I had this problem... I wasn't using ring eyelets on my coil wires.. Instead I was using the original wire from distributer to coil. It had a 90* spade on it that was turned and touching the coil. That took forever to find out.. To test, grab the multimeter, set to 20vdc disconnect the + from coil, hold your remote start switch in the start pos, and u should have around 12vdc there at the coil wire. Then when you let back to run it should drop to 9vdc.. The wire you are looking for should be the sleeved pink wire. The coil will be fine without being externally resisted, it's the points that could be welded shut. May want to look at them. I'm curious if you set your points? And preset the initial timing? It shouldn't be barely running especially on ether.

does not that resistor or resistor wire run between the coil and the ignition switch? 9 volts continuous and 12 on start
ron

[jtrichard]

ING. wire (standard wire) runs from switch to firewall plug near heater THEN is resistor wire down to "R" terminal on starter solenoid second wire (standard) from "R" terminal to coil ... When cranking "R" gets 12V via a switch in solenoid ...AKA HOT START ... after start then resistor/ ING. wire supply's coil with lower voltage..... THERE may only be ONE wire on the "R" as some of the resistor wires are spliced in the harness just above the solenoid connection

[RANDY COX]

while were on the subject, will it hurt running a wire directly from the fuse block to coil and power only when key is on, will this hurt the points with 12v running to them all the time...

[DakotaKid]

over time it might hurt the points. For short run times running full 12v to the points will not hurt anything, and is actually benneficial.

[RANDY COX]

my truck is missing that part of the harness...

[jtrichard]

Full time 12V will burn the hell out of the points all you need is a dropping resistor .... go here to post 1062 pic 3 and 5 and see what i did on mine also had no engine harness http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...644788&page=43 you see 2 wires on the right side of resistor that is the coil and hot start (from"R" on solenoid) left is from KEY switch

[lumpy63]

Hey Vetnat if the engine ran for a few seconds the timing is probably pretty close. Disconnect any wires you have connected to + side of coil and run a jumper from batt + to coil + . Please make sure your truck is in neutral and wheels chocked . Hit you're remote starter and it should run. If it does you can work backwards and find you're wiring problem

[lumpy63]

And yes you need a resistor , but for testing you need not worry

[vetnat]

Hey thanks everybody! So, that is my plan - run a jumper wire with alligator clips between the battery and the + terminal on the coil. Thanks for the tip, I probably wouldn't have thought to remove the wire that was already connected there first.

I'm pretty sure something happened to the resistor wire, before I got it to start the one time, I had 9 volts (approx.) at the + terminal on the coil, now I have straight battery voltage there. Or, at least something happened in that harness to the firewall. Or could it be the ignition switch - it doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

Thanks for the tip on using side cutters to cut into the harness. I may try to just unwrap it too, depends how crunchy and gross it is.

So, I should be able to get a resistor wire from a regular parts store? That's good news

I get off work early this week, so hopefully I will get to this before the weekend.

[vetnat]

For the timing - figuring out when compression is starting on cylinder 1 and then looking to see where the rotor is pointing, I can handle that. When it ran for a second it wasn't running like a top, but it wasn't clashing all over the place either. Hopefully the timing is close.

I got the truck from my dad. Was talking to him today, he can't remember if it ran when he bought it and parked it so many years ago. Just by looking at the wiring under the hood, it appears either somebody was trying to start it without a key (I had to get keys made for it when I got it), or it had an electrical problem back then!

On a slightly different note, I was looking at the flywheel today. There is a little hole with a pointer in the bellhousing that you can see the flywheel through. I never did see any timing marks on the flywheel though, turning the engine over by hand. Does the 235 from a '61 have a BB or whatever in the flywheel as a timing mark? I think I read the ones from the 50's do?

[RANDY COX]

Originally Posted by jtrichard

Full time 12V will burn the hell out of the points all you need is a dropping resistor .... go here to post 1062 pic 3 and 5 and see what i did on mine also had no engine harness http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...644788&page=43 you see 2 wires on the right side of resistor that is the coil and hot start (from"R" on solenoid) left is from KEY switch

Thanks I wondered about that...

[vetnat]

Ok, so ran a jumper wire from + battery to + coil terminal, and had spark like a hot damn. I think I was getting a weaker spark before. Took apart the wire harness to the firewall plug. It was as gross and prickly as I thought it would be, getting it unwrapped. Smelled like cow poop to boot. Anywho, I take it the resistor wire is the one with white woven insulation on it, looped back on itself a few times inside the harness? It was frayed to bare wire at the connector to the solenoid (could see before taking harness apart), and frayed to bare wire around one of the bends in the loops, and wire at harness connector end was a bit grotty too. Other wires inside the harness look OK. I am going to call the auto electric shop tomorrow to see if I can get a replacement. The wire was not in great shape, but can't really see any obvious problem inside the harness. Think this was the reason I wasn't getting any spark?

I suppose I will see if I can get the resistor wire replaced, then see how things go. As long as the solenoid is triggering the starter when I turn the key, does that mean the solenoid is functioning properly? Does the solenoid play any other part in ignition?

I guess I should look at the wiring on the inside of the cab, going from the bulkhead connector to the ignition switch, and the switch itself too.

Is there any check I can do on the resistor wire with the multimeter? I'm sure the auto electric shop will be able to figure it out, just wondering if I can get an idea of its condition myself?

[jtrichard]

Yes you will have a ton of spark hooked straight to the battery as you are not running through a resistor ... the only thing that could be bad in the solenoid is when it is in-gauged (cranking) you should have power on the "R" terminal that's how you get full 12 volts to the coil when starting (HOT START) there is NO power to the "R" when not cranking ... IF you have power at the "R" then you should of had spark when cranking ... And yes the resistor wire has the white cloth type insulation

[vetnat]

Ok, I've been reading posts, and am unsure if NAPA sells a replacement resistor wire, or not. Can someone clarify if a replacement resistor wire is readily available? I phoned about 5 auto electric shops yesterday, nobody had anything in stock, but figured they could order something in. Sound about right?

[jtrichard]

NAPA http://www.napaonline.com/napa/en/p/...?interchange=1

HERE is another http://www.carid.com/standard/ballas...8dxRoC7ePw_wcB

[vetnat]

Thanks so much!

[vetnat]

Good news to report! Got the truck started this afternoon, ran it till the thermostat opened. Success.

Measured resistance of the resistor wire, it was about 1.8 ohms. Took it to the local auto electric shop, guy said he didn't think it was the problem, not to bother ordering in a new one for $40 or so. So, used electrical tape over the couple of frayed spots in the resistor wire, and put the harness back together. Since taking the harness apart, I also replaced the + battery cable terminal, as well as the terminal on the big wire joining the + cable terminal to the horn relay (which my dad does not think is factory).

At some point in the past week or two, the GEN light on the dash stopped coming on when cranking (has an alternator installed). After all my rewiring efforts, noticed the GEN light was still out. And still had no spark from the coil. So, decided to have a look under the dash. Didn't get too involved, just wiggled a few wires near the ignition switch, including a suspicious looking splice. Behold, an illuminated GEN light, and an engine that starts and runs. Which is great. However, the GEN light stays lit while the key is in run position and the engine is running. Gonna have to figure that out. Thanks for all the help.