Building a .060 454. Stock crank and rods?

[HunterRotten]

My dad and I decided to go with a 454 for my 1978 GMC. We had hoped the engine would be able to run as-is while I save up a little more dough but the cylinders had some bad rust build up from sitting for the last 10 or so years.

We took it to an old friend of my dad's shop and had it cleaned pretty thoroughly, it was baked and then had shot thrown at it for a few hours. I am not sure what the actual machines are called.

Anyways, we pulled the block out and it was as we suspected. One of the cylinders is going to need to be sleeved. Possibly more than one but unlikely, it will have to be bored out .060 over.

So in short, I paid a total of $525 for some junk but usable junk. Crank and rods cleaned up really nice. I guess you could factor in the +$85 clean and +$200 Performer RPM intake.

I am going to do an Edelbrock Performer RPM top end on this engine, the aluminum heads(110cc), intake I already have, camshaft, and timing gear. The pistons I have chosen are Wiseco forged pistons.
(Link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/371215915824...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)

So, the question is.. can the stock crank and rods handle this build? I did some research and people said up to about 6500 RPM. From what I could gather thats before problems happened but is it SAFE? I have the smaller rod bolt size, but I do plan on using ARP rod bolts.

I want this to be a 100,000 motor. My dad's the expert (or 17 years ago he was) and I don't know a whole lot. I'm learning as I go. He seems to think it will be okay but I can tell he is (kinda?) uneasy with it and would change them out, but it's my wallet and not his so he is refraining from saying much about it.



Pt 2. of this question is how will this go with paired to a Tremec TKO 500 and a 3.42 rear end? Thanks!

[BossHogg69]

I ran pretty much the same engine (.060" over 454) with Edelbrock RPM oval ports, a Performer RPM air gap and a 245 duration .646" lift hyd roller, with a TKO-500 & 3.73's with a 26.5" tall tire. The 3.73's actually made 1st gear kinda short, so your choice of 3.42's is likely better. BUT depending on the cam & tire size, your cruise rpm may be too low and the engine may not like operating below 2k rpm with a large duration cam, just something to think about. Mine was a '78 model, 2 bolt 289 casting truck block, cast crank, 3/8" truck rods. You didn't say two or four bolt or forged/cast crank. If it's 2 bolt/cast crank, as long as you upgrade the rod & main bolts (I studded my mains) and properly balance everything, that bottom end will handle 6500. They guy that did my shortblock said he's seen many handle 7k w/o problems, but I'm sure these engines aren't seeing 100,000 miles. I do know that hammering on it all the time to that 6500rpm and getting 100,000 miles out of it are two things that probably won't go together. Do you plan on taking to 6500 rpm a lot or are you more concerned with longevity?

On the heads, if you get the fully assembled version I STRONGLY recommend having them taken apart and thoroughly checked/blueprinted before installing - valve guides, seat runout, spring installed height - everything. I ended up breaking a valve on my engine (at 6500!) and it destroyed the whole bottom end, including the block. Are you running the Edelbrock cam too?

For the pistons - SRP 212136 were the pistons I used https://www.summitracing.com/parts/srp-212136-8, as they are specifically made for that Edelbrock head since it has a different chamber shape than factory BB heads. Make sure that Wiseco piston will work with those heads, even though it is a small dome piston.

[HunterRotten]

Originally Posted by BossHogg69

I ran pretty much the same engine (.060" over 454) with Edelbrock RPM oval ports, a Performer RPM air gap and a 245 duration .646" lift hyd roller, with a TKO-500 & 3.73's with a 26.5" tall tire. The 3.73's actually made 1st gear kinda short, so your choice of 3.42's is likely better. BUT depending on the cam & tire size, your cruise rpm may be too low and the engine may not like operating below 2k rpm with a large duration cam, just something to think about. Mine was a '78 model, 2 bolt 289 casting truck block, cast crank, 3/8" truck rods. You didn't say two or four bolt or forged/cast crank. If it's 2 bolt/cast crank, as long as you upgrade the rod & main bolts (I studded my mains) and properly balance everything, that bottom end will handle 6500. They guy that did my shortblock said he's seen many handle 7k w/o problems, but I'm sure these engines aren't seeing 100,000 miles. I do know that hammering on it all the time to that 6500rpm and getting 100,000 miles out of it are two things that probably won't go together. Do you plan on taking to 6500 rpm a lot or are you more concerned with longevity?

On the heads, if you get the fully assembled version I STRONGLY recommend having them taken apart and thoroughly checked/blueprinted before installing - valve guides, seat runout, spring installed height - everything. I ended up breaking a valve on my engine (at 6500!) and it destroyed the whole bottom end, including the block. Are you running the Edelbrock cam too?

For the pistons - SRP 212136 were the pistons I used https://www.summitracing.com/parts/srp-212136-8, as they are specifically made for that Edelbrock head since it has a different chamber shape than factory BB heads. Make sure that Wiseco piston will work with those heads, even though it is a small dome piston.

I am a bit concerned with the camshaft as I don't really drive all that hard, I have a Subaru WRX I daily and I shift at around 2500 rpm's a lot of the time. Occasionally I will see much more but not usually. My driving style will not let that engine see 6500 RPM every day if at all. This is a truck I plan to keep for life so longevity is the game plan.

My dad seems to think the Edelbrock cam will be okay but we are not the same person and quite frankly I don't know what I want. I am inexperienced and this is my first engine ever. As of now, Edelbrock camshaft is the plan.

This block is from a 1982 1 ton truck. It is a 2 bolt main block and the current plan right now is to keep the OE cast crank and the cast rods (3/8")

Would it be better (safer AND more cost effective) to get the bare blocks that require hardware? I had picked the fully assembled ones from Edelbrock (summit) for the ease of installation but will reconsider if this is not the case.

There is more research to be done on the pistons, much of this is just a loose plan as we have not even sleeved the cylinder yet and have limited time to work. The only things I am 100% positive about is the Edelbrock Performer RPM top end besides the camshaft.

[b454rat]

I've had many 454s, and none were 4 bolt, steel crank, big rods, or forged pistons. I had one that had a sleeve, .060, stock crank and rods. Stock main bolts, but used ARP rod bolts. I used Keith Black pistons, for no nitrous (or 150 shot max) or forced induction they are a good choice and cheaper than Wiseco. No need for forged if not gonna be draggin' it or getting stupid. Get a new balancer and flexplate, and get the entire rotating assembly balanced. The first 468 I built had bowtie alum. heads, Comp cams 274 or something, and would spin to 7k no problem. Guy that built it knows his ****, if there was something that I wanted or suggested, if he didn't like he would tell me. I sold that motor when I sold the car. Last one I built was very close to the same, just no sleeve and .030 over. Had 781 heads, and lil smaller cam. Same specs as other motor. Would go to 6500k easily. Heads, cam and compression will make power. Both motors had 10:1, good heads and decent cams. Last motor had Xtreme Energy 268, search that cam on youtube, they sound awesome!!! Easy 400 horse motor.

[HunterRotten]

Originally Posted by b454rat

I've had many 454s, and none were 4 bolt, steel crank, big rods, or forged pistons. I had one that had a sleeve, .060, stock crank and rods. Stock main bolts, but used ARP rod bolts. I used Keith Black pistons, for no nitrous (or 150 shot max) or forced induction they are a good choice and cheaper than Wiseco. No need for forged if not gonna be draggin' it or getting stupid. Get a new balancer and flexplate, and get the entire rotating assembly balanced. The first 468 I built had bowtie alum. heads, Comp cams 274 or something, and would spin to 7k no problem. Guy that built it knows his ****, if there was something that I wanted or suggested, if he didn't like he would tell me. I sold that motor when I sold the car. Last one I built was very close to the same, just no sleeve and .030 over. Had 781 heads, and lil smaller cam. Same specs as other motor. Would go to 6500k easily. Heads, cam and compression will make power. Both motors had 10:1, good heads and decent cams. Last motor had Xtreme Energy 268, search that cam on youtube, they sound awesome!!! Easy 400 horse motor.

That makes me feel a little better!! I picked out the wiseco because they're cheap for forged pistons and it takes weight off of the cast crank and rods.. or that's what my thought behind it was.

I do need to look at smaller camshafts, the performer RPM cam is Duration 300/306, Lift .560/.573.

I'm also looking for less compression. I picked the small dome pistons to achieve a sweet spot around 9.5-1 so that I have a possibility to run the cheap stuff. If I'm going to possibly be dailying and getting sub 13 mpg I want to be guzzling the cheap stuff infested of paying near $4 a gallon still for premium.

[geezer#99]

For your first motor you're sure biting off a big chunk to chew on!
You're stuck in the information overload zone!
You want a low cost big hp motor but you don't even have a block to work with.
Sleeves aren't the way to make your dreams come true.
You need a good foundation.
You've hopefully learned a good lesson with your junk (now a boat anchor) block. Sometimes you gotta bite the bullet and throw things away.
Several times thru your posts I see the word 'cheap'.
Cheap and bigblock can't be said in the same sentence.
And then you're thinking mileage (13 mpg) and cheaper (no octane) gas.
You need to go find a running bigblock and build from there. Learn to tune the wazoo out of it and then upgrade.
You'll be time (knowledge) and money ahead.
So in a nutshell you need to get realistic!
You can't have high compression, big cam, high flow heads, a t56 and 3.42 gears, expect good mileage, buy cheaper gas and expect it to live 100,000 miles.
I could rattle on for days, but I hope you get what I'm saying!

[HunterRotten]

Originally Posted by geezer#99

For your first motor you're sure biting off a big chunk to chew on!
You're stuck in the information overload zone!
You want a low cost big hp motor but you don't even have a block to work with.
Sleeves aren't the way to make your dreams come true.
You need a good foundation.
You've hopefully learned a good lesson with your junk (now a boat anchor) block. Sometimes you gotta bite the bullet and throw things away.
Several times thru your posts I see the word 'cheap'.
Cheap and bigblock can't be said in the same sentence.
And then you're thinking mileage (13 mpg) and cheaper (no octane) gas.
You need to go find a running bigblock and build from there. Learn to tune the wazoo out of it and then upgrade.
You'll be time (knowledge) and money ahead.
So in a nutshell you need to get realistic!
You can't have high compression, big cam, high flow heads, a t56 and 3.42 gears, expect good mileage, buy cheaper gas and expect it to live 100,000 miles.
I could rattle on for days, but I hope you get what I'm saying!

I am under the impression there is nothing wrong with a correctly installed sleeve. While making a block undesirable it does not make it unusable. The block had looked to be in good shape and was the cheapest core I could find for months so whether it worked or not was not a huge deal but preferred it worked so I could run it till it died and build it. We should have taken it apart when we couldn't get it to turn but we didn't. I made more money selling the engine that came out of my truck anyway.

I know big blocks aren't cheap but I'm not looking to put myself $6,000 into this engine. Where I am now with what I have loosely selected I am at about $4,000 which I am comfortable with. The compression I want is anywhere from 8.8-1 to 9.5-1. I'm not expecting good mileage, I'm expecting terrible mileage and that is why I want to run the cheaper fuel.

The cam is more or less my dad's desire. I think the performer RPM cam would sound cool but I'm not sure it would fit my needs performance wise -but I can't say for sure as I don't know.

While my knowledge and skill level is limited, my dad's is not and that is why I may seem like I'm taking off more than I can chew. He used to work in a machine shop and built high performance engines for years.


Here is the block I have to work with, along with the cylinder that will most likely need sleeved.

[geezer#99]

Good luck!!

[b454rat]

My first motor had a sleeve in it after the piston and valve wanted to meet. Put a hole in the head, antifreeze went into the piston, IIRC steam caused it to crack. I had the motor redone again, and had zero issues with it. I flogged it for a couple more years after that.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by geezer#99

You can't have high compression, big cam, high flow heads, a t56 and 3.42 gears, expect good mileage, buy cheaper gas and expect it to live 100,000 miles.

That's very subjective to what you call big. In the 60's these things came with big compression, big heads, no overdrive, big rear gears and yes they went 100k. No cheap gas back then though. So drop the compression to reasonable, and your good to go again.

I don't know edelbrock big block specs, but their small block cams leave alot to be desired. Their small block heads are ok but there are better for the money as well. Just my opinion at least.

[b454rat]

Originally Posted by Tom

That's very subjective to what you call big. In the 60's these things came with big compression, big heads, no overdrive, big rear gears and yes they went 100k. No cheap gas back then though. So drop the compression to reasonable, and your good to go again.

I don't know edelbrock big block specs, but their small block cams leave alot to be desired. Their small block heads are ok but there are better for the money as well. Just my opinion at least.

Not arguing at all, but I've had older guys tell me your lucky if you got 50k out of old carbed cars, even finely tuned motors..... It doesn't take much to wake up a 454. Guy that built my motor said "you could put a flower pot in place of one of the pistons and it would still make power" lol I believe it too!! I love (and miss) big blocks.

[geezer#99]

Originally Posted by b454rat

Not arguing at all, but I've had older guys tell me your lucky if you got 50k out of old carbed cars, even finely tuned motors..... It doesn't take much to wake up a 454. Guy that built my motor said "you could put a flower pot in place of one of the pistons and it would still make power" lol I believe it too!! I love (and miss) big blocks.

Yup!!
50,000 would be a miracle (30,000 more like it) what with 11 or 12 to 1 compression, wider ring gaps, at least .600 lift cams, 850 dbbl pumpers and 4.56 or 5.13 gears.
Nothing like driving 100 miles at 4 mpg with a 12.5 to 1 L88 with 5.13 gears. Just to make a few passes and drive back home.
I too miss the old days!

[HunterRotten]

I am a bit sketched out by flywheels and I have been doing some research. Have you guys ever heard or used PRW Industries?

http://www.jegs.com/i/PRW/228/1645481/10002/-1

Thanks.. what about the summit branded one?

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-700182

[b454rat]

Just run a stock flywheel. No need to go crazy when it's it's not needed, and save yourself some money. Just get it balanced....

[CaptRMW]

With the price of good 454 used blocks around here I am with Geezer this one is definitely a boat anchor. As one poster said "a sleeve installed properly" is no problem but it is after you spent gobs of cash and you find that they bored the block a half thousandth too big and the sleeve dropped in the oil pan at 6500 RPM that will cause skid marks and I am not talking skid marks on the road. Spend $400.00 for a good used block now and be glad you did later. Sleeves are for "rare" or numbers matching blocks. Boring .060 over without checking core shift and cylinder wall thickness while talking 100,000 miles is merely a dream that will likely turn into a nightmare somewhere quite a ways south of the 100,000 mile mark. Your money and my .02 cents

[geezer#99]

Thanks for that comment Capt!
Even the rare blocks should only be sleeved if it's for a run once in a blue moon type of motor.
I have an L-72 stashed away that needs a sleeve. It'll likely never get used because I can't trust it not to drain my wallet.

[b454rat]

I don't see what the big deal running a sleeve. It's a press fit, and it's not gonna come out or move. I spun mine up to 7k and didn't fall into oil pan. But also needs to be done by someone that knows what they are doing. I wouldn't hesitate at all running one.

[HunterRotten]

I don't really get the harm in sleeving when I'm not racing or running this engine hard. Plus the cost to sleeve is only going to be the cost of the sleeve which is a little under $30 from melling.

How do you guys feel about using a 350 flywheel on a big block? I have a really nice 168 tooth flywheel I purchased for my small block before changing my mind. From what I have read you can use something such as this.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mcl-560222

[b454rat]

You can use a 350 flywheel but the rotating assembly will need to be balanced no matter what!!!! A 350 is internally balanced, a 454 is externally. Other than that, they are pretty much the same. I had a 153 tooth flywheel externally balanced that was in my 79 Malibu factory 4-speed.....

[HunterRotten]

Originally Posted by b454rat

You can use a 350 flywheel but the rotating assembly will need to be balanced no matter what!!!! A 350 is internally balanced, a 454 is externally. Other than that, they are pretty much the same. I had a 153 tooth flywheel externally balanced that was in my 79 Malibu factory 4-speed.....

I plan on getting everything balanced the same time we are sleeving the block, thanks for your concern though. I probably should have cleared that up before you felt like I was blowing it over.

[HunterRotten]

I'm on the hunt for an appropriate camshaft. I've looked at camquest a bit but I'm just stumped on what is appropriate for me and my driving style, and the engine itself. For compression in the low 9's I don't think the performer RPM cam is good for me.

I want something I don't have to think twice about driving to important events, something I can daily drive if need be. More aggressive sounding than stock but I don't want to sound like I'm full of rocks either. I do need to have vacuum for my brakes.

Not that it matters but I'm also going to be using aluminum serpentine from a 90 Chevy v6. I found a really cool adapter setup we are going to try to mimic or purchase. I do have vintage air AC to run as well as an AMFM radio.

I'd just like to say again I'm not power hungry with this build. With what I have chosen the camquest program seems to have me at around 530 ft lbs of torque and 460 HP (varying with camshaft) and that sounds like more than enough to me.

[geezer#99]

Try this to match up your cam needs.
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w..._compatibility

[BossHogg69]

http://www.claysmithcams.com/bbc-454...x-of-6000-rpm/

The guy that came up with this series of cams is Chris Straub - I think it is along the lines of what you're wanting, but it is a hydraulic roller. Horsepower will likely be well north of 500 if everything else in the motor is properly assembled. His email is cstraub@straubtechnologies.com - tell him you talked to Adam Reed. Or just go to his website www.StraubTechnologies.com. He's a good guy and will be able to help you out and is into big blocks. He did a similar hyd roller cam for my 468, mentioned above, but it had quite a bit more lift & duration (I had the same heads you're gonna use, but mine were ported so he did a custom cam for me). He also did the solid roller cam that's in a 532 BB that his partner just built for me. If you don't want to spend the money convert to a hydraulic roller, he does flat tappet cams too. Call a pro, or even the various cam companies' tech lines, that way you don't have a hack like me recommending you stuff - they do cams for a living.

[HunterRotten]

Thanks for the read and thanks for the info on Chris! I'll have to shoot him an email. I figured I would have to give comp cams a call or some other company so I pick out whats best for me.

I know this may seem like I'm getting ahead of myself but I don't have the stock manifolds and I have pipes bent for hedman mid-length headers on a small block. Is there a similar set for a big block? Part numbers would be great I disliked playing the header game to find the right set. It is a 1978 square.

I'm going to write up my parts list later on this evening with my dad and I'll post it here.

[HunterRotten]

Thanks for the information about Straub technologies. He gave me an invoice for a hydraulic roller and I really like the what replied back with when I entered it in my dyno simulator.

Since I've decided now to do the hydraulic roller, I've seen that the timing gears aren't going to be the same and I need a retainer plate to keep the camshaft from "walking."

I'm struggling to find the part # from GM for this plate so if anyone has it I'd be appreciative if you shared! It looks like using a GEN VI (6) big block timing gear set is what I will need for the hydraulic roller.

Also for a little update, plan on installing the sleeves and boring the block middle of next week. Thanks!