S10 frame vs Camaro/Original frame

[8man]

I am building two trucks, a 48 and a 54, both short beds and both with SBC. I managed to come up with the following frames, don't ask, it's a long sad story of learning what I am trying to do.

78 Camaro front clip on a stock frame with a Camaro rear end
79 Firebird front clip on a stock frame with a Firebird rear end
82 S10 bare frame
85 S10 complete truck

I've read some pros and cons to both style of frames, and so I'm asking for some thoughts on this subject.

The trucks will not be lowered a lot, or bagged, but lower than stock height. We want them a little lower, but with the cab set up high enough so the floor of the bed does not have to be raised.

So are there any advantages to the clipped frame versus the S10 frame for this type of set up?

If you need more information to help, let me know.

[dsraven]

I would have to say the biggest thing is going to be overcoming the bump up in a non stock frame over the rear wheels. if you decide to do a frame swap to an s10 or other donor frame your bed will need to be high enough to miss the frame bump if not doing a bed floor height adjustment. that will likely leave the truck sitting high on the frame at the front area. may not be the look you are going for.
the camaro clip on the stock frame, if done properly, may be the one that you will like the most simply because it will likely keep the body at a stock height compared to the frame. it may depend on the track width comparison and whether or not your tires rub when turning and going over a bump at the same time. this will also likely mean you will need to do some fabrication for pedals, steering column and a few other things. these are, however, things you would need to do anyway if you went with an s10 frame or may want to do if you had kept the body on a stock frame with a different ifs member up front.
do you know what the ride height will be on the stock frame with the camaro clip and diff? have you done any paperwork mock ups to see what the body height would need to be if using the s10 frame.
try gmupfitters on google for an s10 frame pic with dimensions, maybe helpful for that. here is a link to the site for a 2000 s10 2 wheel drive. go to page 35-ish for frame info. gives dimensions as well so nice that way. the s10 frame is a front section with a rear section that basically slips inside the front part. if you need to change the wheel base there is some room to work there. simply mark the frame, both sides, grind the welds off, then slip the frame together or apart the same amount (use the marks) then reweld the joint. obviously slipping together is the better way because you can always trim the frame off and slide it in further and still retain the same amount of overlap. pulling the frame apart would have it's limitations to keep enough overlap for strength.

https://www.gmupfitter.com/files/med...LD_STTruck.pdf


what is the intent for engine/trans/hp/torque/brakes/wheels//drive time (daily driver or just every now and then)

[8man]

Thanks raven, I'll look at the gmupfitters.

The plan is for a weekend driver. Short runs for the most part. Not a drag truck, no need for lots of HP, although that runs counter to my soul.

I have not done any ride heights or measurements of the combo chassis. I have one in the garage with the cab and bed "loosely sitting on the frame with a sbc/tranny sitting on the frame, so I will do that this weekend when I get some time with it.

I really haven't studied ride height yet. I keep seeing lowered trucks and I know I don't want to go to low. I have seen some all stock rides too, and I don't want to keep it at that height. So I do need to work on that.

I see a lot of S10 conversions. Does that mean that even if they aren't lowered they need the floor of the bed raised because of the hump?

[dsraven]

the reason I ask is because it is nice to have enough go to spin the tires or get out and go if you want to, the drawback is the fuel costs and also the upgrades for the frame to be able to handle the torque. Im not out there to smoke the tires off either but may wanna stand on it a few times just cause. I will have the 4.2l inline 6 in my 57 (04 gmc envoy engine) which will have all the juice I need. with smaller than stock envoy tire size it should increase the torque so no worries.
do you have any info on the camaro clip frames? you would need to know what rake angle they are set up for and compare to what you want. maybe a good idea to set one up on stands, level the front control arms and see what the rest of the frame is like for rake angle and also check for squareness etc. the nice thing about the stock frame is the body will fit over like it should and if they are already complete they will have the front frame horns in place for the bumper as well. there are kits available as well if you want to install a 4 link or something else. a full frame swap, like the s10, is pretty involved. have you checked the skymangs write up on doing that. good info there. a clip install can be equally involved but if it is already done, and done right, it would save you time. even if you have to build some front frame extensions you would have to do that for the s10 swap anyway.
post up a few pics so we can see what you have to work with.

[8man]

Again, thanks for the suggestions.

I have looked at Skymangs write up, and several others. I am learning about the trucks and it was a good primer to get me started. So I am gearing up for the S10 and was thinking I wanted to go that way until I read about the bed floor being raised. The one picture I saw from the rear (on another thread) made me think twice, especially since I have the clipped frames already.

I will post up pics of the one in the shop this weekend when I get back to it. I'll level it up as you suggested and see where it is. Since it has so much stuff on it right now, to finish checking for square will have to wait.

Right now I'm working on rusted out cab panel replacement. I know others get the frame done first, but I had so much rust to deal with that I wanted to make sure the cab was re-buildable first. Once I get the cab in good shape, I'll start on the frame.

I know you are right about spinning the tires thing. I put a 5.3 in the Cherokee and it has plenty more power than stock and plenty for the driving I do in it. Passing is a must, so it will have some get up and go.

[skymangs]

I've done both. the problem with the f body front clip is it'e super wide track width. Of the two I far prefer the s10 frame swaps. what you need is my version 1 (flat floor/stock bed height) cab mounts. check out http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=632686 my s10 swap how to. I've got a really good step by step how to in there.

[skymangs]

you bet

[dsraven]

if you have decided on the s10 swap, you can do as some have and sell off parts as you go. read through skymangs entire thread so you know what you will need from the donor and sell the remaining stuff. it helps offset costs. just be carefull how you dissassemble so the parts removed are saleable.
good luck, post pics as you go. that way somebody on here may also get some help/ideas and if somebody sees something you missed you will get a heads up before it's too late.

[8man]

Thanks for the advice. I do have a thread started on the build, but it is going slow. I drive 1.5 hours each way to work and that doesn't leave much "evening" time during the week and weekends seem to get planned for other stuff too. I plan on remedying that in August, and then I will have more shop time.

I have some pics of the cab work I'll be posting up hopefully this weekend in the thread Wife's 48. Since I have 2 of each style of frame, I may use the "clipped" frame under the 48 and the S10 under the 54. The 54 is for my wife and I think I'll sell the 48 when I get it running. So I guess the other two frames will be surplus, and I'll see if anyone wants them.

Thanks for the again for the thought provoking advice. It really helped me look at the project.

[MARTINSR]

The one question that hasn't been addressed, what do you plan on doing with the trucks? Are you going to autocross them? Are you doing to cruise to the local drive-in every other Friday night? Are you going to drive it every day to work going down city streets or drive it that hour and a half out on the interstate at 70 mph?

One of the biggest suggestions I can give is honestly ask those questions of yourself. I know I did a Camaro clip, before I was even done I drove a friend of mine's stock framed AD with a dropped axle and new springs, it rode and handled so nice I couldn't believe it! I thought at the time"My God, this thing drives like a 20 year old S-10."

I sold the frame with the camaro clip and got a stock frame and a dropped axle. I have since changed again in that the theme of the truck is a stock "Cameo" that was never made in 1952 with a Corvette motor, so I had to go with a stock 49-54 front suspension out of a passenger car.

As far as the brakes, I drive every single day, every-single-day a 59 Rambler with a flathead 6 and drum brakes, they don't even have self adjusters, oh and it's a single reservoir master cyl too. Every day for a number of years now, and hit the freeway now and then too.

By the way, I ran this truck years ago for many years, again, driving it every day with the stock frame and stock I beam with a Buick 401 mounted midship with the carburetor between the seats and a 16" long drive shaft.

You CAN do what ever you want, but ask yourself, how am I going to drive it, what do I really need? Don't think you will save money because you will have to rebuild anything you put there, be it the S10 or what ever, so it often isn't money.

Just make a good choice along with what may be best for YOU and what works best in the big package.

If I had to have independent in your case I would be going with an AM IFS and leaving the frame stock. That is the easiest bar none, and in my opinion the best way to go.

You have to do some SERIOUS mods to the rad support and inner fenders and bumper brackets and running board brackets and on and on, it doesn't save you a bit of time. A stock frame with an AM IFS is the way to go in my opinion.

Brian

[8man]

Martinsr, thanks for the thoughts. You got me thinking about this again.

The 48 is a learning build. I'm learning sheet metal work fight now. I've only built 1 vehicle and thought I needed some more experience on another one before I built one for my wife. So for the 48, my thought right now is that once it sits on a frame and the 283 is running I will think about selling it, maybe.

The plan for the 54 is for my wife. Not a daily driver, but around town, to car shows and maybe Lowe's for plants on a pretty spring day. Yes it will see some 70 mph runs. Being in Texas, to go from my house to our daughter is a 3 hour run. So the ride is going to be important. As is the ability to cruise at speeds and pass when the opportunity arises.

Building the trucks will be my hobby, right now it's therapy. I'm retiring later this year, and I know I can't sit still. I like the learning process, and I'm enjoying working with my hands like my dad does. So while I'm not very good (yet) at fabbing brackets and such, I'm getting better with every one I do. So building "all of the stuff" for the S10 frame seems like a fun, learning project.

[joedoh]

when you use the tall mounts in skymangs thread, as you have been planning, the front sheetmetal doesnt need anywhere near the modification. even if you used the lower mounts, like most people do, the sheetmetal modification takes about 30 minutes. you wont have that much time in it, because the tall mounts are 3" higher, I doubt they interfere with the front sheetmetal at all because given the extra 3" the two ADs I have done, I wouldnt have even needed to cut the splash pan.

mounting the running boards, with a plan, either using the stock mounts (they way I do it) or custom mounts (the way others like hussey and gigamanx do it) doesnt even take an afternoon.


here is what is what you should be aware of with a MII swap or aftermarket IFS from a beginners perspective:

you need a good welder, a 220V one that preferably has a gas kit but you could do it with flux if you are good with it. they sell bolt on kits too be sure, but they arent inexpensive. you need to know how to run it, and you need to measure exactly to install or the tires will wear funny or the truck will track weirdly. you need to be comfortable with doing a front suspension installation that you havent done before. with an S10, you are making body mounts. of the two, which would you rather fail at speed?

you need a stock frame that you dont have.

you need at least $1500 worth of aftermarket front suspension that you dont have. even if you piece it together with the least expensive crossmember and the least expensive arms, and the least expensive brakes and steering, $1500 is about where it will fall. upgrades like tube arms or better shocks? $2k. after you install it, you will have a $1500 front end on a basically stock AD frame, torque tube driveshaft, huck brakes, 4.56 (3.90 if you are lucky) rear gears, lever shocks. with an s10 you get a highway gear, upgraded leafs, modern brakes and brake lines, all stuff you will still need to buy for the stock frame. if you bought the s10 complete you will have a steering column and pedals, brake booster and master, at the very least.

S10 parts are in stock at every single auto parts store in north america and probably mexico too. when you need brake pads for the MII, even if they are 1977 grenada pads, will they be in stock? you will have a list in the glovebox of where all the major components were sourced.


I dont advocate one or the other. if you dont have a track record of getting things like this done, you probably wont get this done no matter what parts you use. my advice is in that case is to buy one done, it will cost less, and you will be driving right away. if you have the chutzpah to do something like this you have to know what you could handle. looking for the "easiest" way or worse than that, the "cheapest" way, well those guys usually find their destiny on the path they take to avoid it.

[8man]

Thanks Joe. You hit on several good points and I agree.

As for me, I am comfortable (although not great) with the mig. My fab skills are coming a long. I would rather have something any parts store can get me the parts for when I need them, so I'm going with the S10 on Laura's "Farm Truck". Finally, I have re-built a vehicle from the ground up, so I have some knowledge about what it takes, and I'm really looking forward to having the time to devote to this one.

In just 24 hours I've had really great advice on this forum. Thanks all!

[joedoh]

I actually just did this kind of thing this morning. on the last 41 I did, I had to cut the air director to clear the s10 frame horns and steering box. on the current 41, I mounted the body 1" higher and was able to massage the area with a mallet to clear.

IMG_8456 by Joe Doh, on Flickr

this is literally 1" difference, on the last one I had it cut almost to the grille. I boxed it back in with kydex which is super simple to do.

[8man]

Good to know that only that much made such a difference. Thanks.

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by 8man

Good to know that only that much made such a difference. Thanks.

It takes MUCH more than that on the AD.

Brian

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by MARTINSR

It takes MUCH more than that on the AD.

Brian

it doesnt really. the 41 is a lot smaller than the AD, everything is further back on the 41 too so the frame is higher where the air director is. I have done both on S10 and can make the comparison.

on the last 49 I could have maybe shaped the air director with a mallet around the frame and steering, but I had to cut the core support higher to let me use the S10 radiator, it needed to sit above the two power steering lines on the box, so I cut the air director too.

the frame didnt stick through my cuts more than an inch on the 49, so with the taller cab mounts I bet it wont even need a single cut. maybe a ding with a ball peen where the adjustment nut is on the steering box. you will still need to cut off the bottom of the core support, that bottom of the hoop hangs lower than the sheetmetal and will hit the steering box.

this is for an S10, I have no idea what it takes for a camaro/firebird clip because I have never done one. it seems like it would mount higher because the stock frame is higher too.

[skymangs]

I couldn't agree with joedoh more, an s10 swap is not for a novice. for that matter neither is an f body ciip (check out the 49 in my sig). it will require a whole lot of trimming and mods to the inners/core support and specially backspaced wheels. I still havn't figured out the sway bar or the front bumper.
for my money I find an s10 swap way easier and far more roadworthy.

[MARTINSR]

Yep thus my concerns if you really don't need it, go some other way.

Brian

[mr48chev]

From experience on my 48 truck and the 51 Mercury I had a subframe swap requires a lot of front end sheet metal modifications some which aren't too pretty. The higher you set the ride height the less you have to modify the sheet metal. I put a lot of miles on the 48 with the subframe swap including road trips to Texas and Utah without issues and it drove great but I wouldn't do another one.

All the guys who have been here a while will tell you that I am not a fan of S-10 swaps in any way shape or form but if you set one up with the taller stands holding the body up off the frame you don't have to do near the trimming on the front end sheet metal.

If your welding is a bit suspect an you have a good stock frame Industrial chassis, Speedway and Chassis engineering Inc (they should be up and running in a week or two on the new location) all have bolt on crossmembers for the stock frame About all you need to install one of those is a 1/2 inch drill and a hand full of wrenches and a good tape measure.

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by mr48chev

From experience on my 48 truck and the 51 Mercury I had a subframe swap requires a lot of front end sheet metal modifications some which aren't too pretty. The higher you set the ride height the less you have to modify the sheet metal. I put a lot of miles on the 48 with the subframe swap including road trips to Texas and Utah without issues and it drove great but I wouldn't do another one.

All the guys who have been here a while will tell you that I am not a fan of S-10 swaps in any way shape or form but if you set one up with the taller stands holding the body up off the frame you don't have to do near the trimming on the front end sheet metal.

If your welding is a bit suspect an you have a good stock frame Industrial chassis, Speedway and Chassis engineering Inc (they should be up and running in a week or two on the new location) all have bolt on crossmembers for the stock frame About all you need to install one of those is a 1/2 inch drill and a hand full of wrenches and a good tape measure.

We are brothers from different mothers.

Brian

[mr48chev]

When I get the nose off the 48 I'll take a "this is what happens when you subframe an AD and are in a hurry photo of the carnage under there. I think I replaced the pan below the grill when I swapped it back on the stock 54 frame though.

The thing I don't and never will get is the guys who pay a premium for an S 10 to get the chassis, pay 1400 + for the Code 504 kit, spend several hundred dollars rebuilding the S-10 suspension then more to bag it and change to 4 link on the rear and then tell us that they saved a ton of money over putting a crossmember kit complete with bags and a rear suspension kit on a stock AD frame.

For me the subframe swaps are obsolete 80's technology from the time frame when we didn't have good aftermarket front suspension kits available and the subframes were dirt cheap and still in decent shape. Around here Mullet Camaros and Firebirds have hit collector status and the prices have risen on parts accordingly.

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by mr48chev

When I get the nose off the 48 I'll take a "this is what happens when you subframe an AD and are in a hurry photo of the carnage under there. I think I replaced the pan below the grill when I swapped it back on the stock 54 frame though.

The thing I don't and never will get is the guys who pay a premium for an S 10 to get the chassis, pay 1400 + for the Code 504 kit, spend several hundred dollars rebuilding the S-10 suspension then more to bag it and change to 4 link on the rear and then tell us that they saved a ton of money over putting a crossmember kit complete with bags and a rear suspension kit on a stock AD frame.

For me the subframe swaps are obsolete 80's technology from the time frame when we didn't have good aftermarket front suspension kits available and the subframes were dirt cheap and still in decent shape. Around here Mullet Camaros and Firebirds have hit collector status and the prices have risen on parts accordingly.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL, no really, LOLOLOLOLOL

Yeah, when I see my inner fenders and rad support that I cut up to clear the Camaro sub I want to puke. Those are the ONLY items I have from my truck that came with the pink slip, well those three and the dash clusters, but that's it, all I have. The inner fenders I can save, the rad support is likely trash. But even though I have another that is perfect I may save it just because I want to so bad, I am a romantic in that way.

Brian

[skymangs]

Originally Posted by mr48chev

When I get the nose off the 48 I'll take a "this is what happens when you subframe an AD and are in a hurry photo of the carnage under there. I think I replaced the pan below the grill when I swapped it back on the stock 54 frame though.

The thing I don't and never will get is the guys who pay a premium for an S 10 to get the chassis, pay 1400 + for the Code 504 kit, spend several hundred dollars rebuilding the S-10 suspension then more to bag it and change to 4 link on the rear and then tell us that they saved a ton of money over putting a crossmember kit complete with bags and a rear suspension kit on a stock AD frame.

For me the subframe swaps are obsolete 80's technology from the time frame when we didn't have good aftermarket front suspension kits available and the subframes were dirt cheap and still in decent shape. Around here Mullet Camaros and Firebirds have hit collector status and the prices have risen on parts accordingly.

I don't use a kit and I hold out for a good deal on my s10. I do save money.

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by mr48chev

The thing I don't and never will get is the guys who pay a premium for an S 10 to get the chassis, pay 1400 + for the Code 504 kit, spend several hundred dollars rebuilding the S-10 suspension then more to bag it and change to 4 link on the rear and then tell us that they saved a ton of money over putting a crossmember kit complete with bags and a rear suspension kit on a stock AD frame.

I bought a good running 03 longbed three weeks ago that is already paying me for its parking space after selling the wheels toolboxes and hood, lots more to go. I havent used a code 504 mount kit on a single of the 5 trucks I have done, just followed the directions in the swap sticky. I bet 90% of the trucks in the project forum built their own mounts too. I use all moog stuff when I rebuild the front suspension and its around $350, $500 with brakes. thats $500 worth of spend, and I have a running efi 4.3, shifting 4l60e, 3.42 rear gears, driveshaft, pedals, steering column and I even reuse the wiring harness. with a MII, you have a MII, and only after you spend the time installing it. whats your time worth?

bagging any truck will cost 3-5k, whether its a MII or an s10, but an s10 bag kit is strictly a bolt on affair, from dozens of vendors.

as far as being jaded, why not stop judging peoples real actions with your best intentions? Its one thing to say "I'm gonna" but another thing entirely to actually finish and drive something you built with all your lofty goals.