Dear LS friends, I need your help.

[Low Elco]

So, I've built a couple of trucks, done an LS swap and been working on cars for a long time. My DD is an 09 Sierra CC, 5.3/ 6spd. The DOD lifters went out at around 80k, I bought it with 96k, now it has 159k on it, and they went out again. I wanted to eliminate the DOD, so I bought a kit with a Brian Tooley "no Spring" cam, ls6 lifters, etc. I also put headers and a K&N filter on it. I got it all assembled and took it to one of the big dog tuning shops in town to turn the dod off and put a tune on it. To be blunt, it runs like ass. and they gave it to me that way with a shrug. " we dunno." They apparently had no cam sensor signal, so they put a cam sensor in. So a frined had a Blazer with a 6.0 and a cam that ran similarly crappy, and he had a guy that fixed it. so Monday, I went to that guy, at least he tried. His diagnosis was plugged cats. Still runs like crap. So, last night I rodded out the cats. Just as bad if not worse.

So, what's it doing? It idles like a Pro Stocker, pings and shudders at idle, reeks of half burnt gas, breaks up over 3500 rpm, you can feel it breaking up stumbling on the highway. It's down on power, has to kick down to pull hills it never had a problem with before. At idle it acts like a 70's car dieseling. If it was a SBC, I'd say the timing was way retarded. The gas is fresh. It has 58 PSI at idle. the plugs look identical when you pull them. After the first tune it was like they were spray painted white. IT has from 138-155 psi of cranking compression. its not throwing a code. Mechanically, it's fine. Any Ideas? Please, I'm literally at the and of my rope and I need this truck running in a bad way. Thanks.

[ls1nova71]

Well, damn, I was really hoping Bryan would be able to fix you up. I hate to say it, but it almost sounds like the timing is off a bit. Are you sure you got the timing chain and gears lined up? Just being off one tooth will cause an engine to run funny. Not what you are wanting to hear, I know, but you may have to go back in it and double check.

[Hart_Rod]

Did they put the correct cam sensor in? There's a difference between DOD and non DOD. Also, there is a crank "re-learn" procedure that should be performed after a new cam install. Good luck.

[Low Elco]

Well, I can say Bryan tried, hard, and told me to call and let him know. He said if it was off a tooth it'd throw a code. Mechanically, it'll spin to 6k. Don't know about any relearn procedure. Don't know what cam sensor they put in. I know I went from a single bolt to a three bolt cam, but used a factory gear from a GM bag. No VVT. Calling Tooley today.

[Hart_Rod]

Originally Posted by Low Elco

Well, I can say Bryan tried, hard, and told me to call and let him know. He said if it was off a tooth it'd throw a code. Mechanically, it'll spin to 6k. Don't know about any relearn procedure. Don't know what cam sensor they put in. I know I went from a single bolt to a three bolt cam, but used a factory gear from a GM bag. No VVT. Calling Tooley today.

https://ls1tech.com/forums/pcm-diagn...m-changes.html

Originally Posted by Dave_62

The Crankshaft Position (CKP) sensor sends pulses to the PCM as the reluctor wheel teeth rotate past the CKP sensor. The PCM uses the CKP pulses to synchronize the ignition and fuel injector operation, and to time the interval between each CKP pulse. The PCM determines when an excessive change in crankshaft speed occurs by comparing each new time interval with the previous interval. A misfire causes an unexpected change in the crankshaft speed. A certain amount of acceleration/deceleration is expected between each firing stroke, but if the crankshaft speed changes more than an expected amount, the PCM interprets this as a misfire. The interval between CKP sensor pulses is extremely small. At high engine speeds, slight variations in the following components make misfire detection difficult:

Crankshaft
Reluctor wheel
CKP sensor
The PCM learns variations during the Crankshaft Position System Variation Learning Procedure. The PCM compensates for these variations when performing detect misfire calculations. Only a scan tool can command the PCM to perform the Crankshaft Position System Variation Learning Procedure again.
Perform the learning procedure after the following actions:

A PCM replacement
Any operation or repair involving the crankshaft, the CKP sensor, or the CKP sensor to reluctor wheel gap relationship.
An engine replacement.
The ignition switch is in the ON position until the battery is drained.


FWIW, this is lifted directly from the GM service manual. I was under the impression that EFILive could do a CASE relearn as well? Hopefully someone familiar with Live can chime in and verify.

[Ghost's68]

Originally Posted by Hart_Rod

https://ls1tech.com/forums/pcm-diagn...m-changes.html

How do you do the relearn with out trucks and LS swaps? I read on that post you linked the ECM has to have a signal from the brake being pressed.

[Hart_Rod]

Originally Posted by Ghost's68

How do you do the relearn with out trucks and LS swaps? I read on that post you linked the ECM has to have a signal from the brake being pressed.

You should have a wire going from the PCM to the brake light switch that deactivates your torque converter lock-up.

[ls1nova71]

Did you get a hold of Brian Tooley today? I really doubt a crank relearn will do much, especially since it's had the tune modified, (I would think that would have been in it? Not sure though) but if you want to try it you can use my scanner. It's pretty easy to do and only takes a couple of minutes.

[Low Elco]

Well, I called Tooley. Very nice guy, and I explained the deal. Come to find out, I was woefully misled. The reason it idles like a Pro Stocker is because the "no spring" cam is basically a Stage 4 truck cam, i.e. full race. And if you dont put a much looser convertor in, all kinds of weird stuff happens. So, we discussed the situation, and he's willing to swap me cams for a stage 2, which needs $50 worth of springs, but is designed to not need a convertor, and have a lot more low end and a bit of an idle, which is all I wanted in the first place. So I'm pulling and sending that off over the weekend. I'm contacting Bryan today and hopefully he'll have mercy on me and touch the tune up after I get this fixed. And yes, I asked specifically when I bought this " oh yeah, we sell a lot of those, they work great, no problem" Uh huh. So we'll see. Thanks for the replies, I'll update as things progress!

[BR3W CITY]

Can you link to me which cam you bought exactly? It doesn't jive that the bigger came doesn't need springs but the smaller one does?

AFAIK all of Brian's cams need at least the factory LS2/3/6 springs. If its being run on actual stock truck springs you may have a problem right there.

We've worked a ton with BT, and his cam grinder (Cam Motion) and haven't had similar problems.

[Low Elco]

I understand what you're saying, that was my train of thought, supported by AMS Racing, who I bought it from. here it is-

https://www.briantooleyracing.com/bt...truck-cam.html

Seems like it'd be perfect, huh? Note note about 2800+ torque converter. I didn't see that, and no one mentioned it. Tooley's guy said at least 3000 stall, which seems high for a street car. I know (and he said) it's got the full race idle. It is currently on stock truck springs.

My tuner said it wasn't much bigger than the stocker. IDK, it's getting springs and pushrods and a stage 2 cam next week.

[BR3W CITY]

So its not the Stage 4 Cam that you mentioned in post #9? The one you linked to isn't a wild cam at all, its not even past .500" to be ok with stock springs. It shouldn't idle crazy at all, honestly it should be pretty tame.

Sounds to me like there is either a mechanical problem, or the "big tune shop" dropped the ball somewhere. Do you have any more info on the whole "no cam sensor" thing? That's a red flag to me.

[Low Elco]

No, it's not. I completely get what you're saying. That's what Tooley's rep said. Apparently, somehow, it's pretty aggressive. Tooley's rep said that without a converter, all kinds of weird things would happen. He said the Stage 2 they're sending me would be much more in line for what I need. Hell, Idk. I just really need this damn thing to run, asap. It has been checked ad nauseum for mechanical problems. They just said it didn't want to start and they had no cam sensor signal. So they put one in.

[BR3W CITY]

Hmmm. I wonder if they put the right sensor in. Older systems use 12v control instead of the 5v that the newer stuff uses. Do you have access to a logger? I feel like there is still a missing piece here.

[Low Elco]

I don't. I'm not real sure they did anything. I'll find out when I pull the cover. I'm a paint and body and fab guy. I know enough to swap one of these, barely. I know I'm out of money, and I hope this works. I just texted the tune guy to see if he could touch it up after the swap, if it runs. We'll see.

[davepl]

Is it any different with the MAF unplugged? Due to tube turbulence I had a hard time getting a decent MAG signal and it ran A LOT better with the MAF unplugged until I got that sorted out. Just throwing it out there.

[71cadc10]

224/230 duration at .050 is going to make a 5.3 lope considerably, and need a convertor for sure in a heavy truck.

I have a 211/230 LS7 stock cam in mine, when I did the DOD delete. it is noticeably light on low end power from 1500 to about 3500. Could use a convertor for it really to wake it up. So I can see how the 224/230 is really not what you were wanting for end results.
when you put the timing sprocket on, was it a 2x or 4x sprocket ? If the kit came with a 2x sprocket for instance (3 bolt), then the cam signal will not be correct. Your 09 should be using a 4x sprocket, with 58x crank. The 4x wheel has 4 raised bumps of different lengths on the front face of the camshaft sprocket. Sounds like you are going back in to change cams, when you get to that point confirm which one you have

[Low Elco]

Sorry, been busy. It does have the 4x sprocket. Thanks for the tech info. I did all the wet stuff last night (ugh) and I'll pull the rest tonight. I'll be getting the stage 2 truck cam from tooley. Maf is stock, just a K&N filter. Any opinions?

[Low Elco]

After a battle royale with the stupid countersunk bolts, I got to the cam last night. Yup, installed just as it should be. I'll put the rods in and ship it tonight. Watched some videos in youtube, sounds like the stage 2 is what I need. I hope so.

[jessemthompson]

Originally Posted by 71cadc10

224/230 duration at .050 is going to make a 5.3 lope considerably, and need a convertor for sure in a heavy truck.

I have a 211/230 LS7 stock cam in mine, when I did the DOD delete. it is noticeably light on low end power from 1500 to about 3500. Could use a convertor for it really to wake it up. So I can see how the 224/230 is really not what you were wanting for end results.
when you put the timing sprocket on, was it a 2x or 4x sprocket ? If the kit came with a 2x sprocket for instance (3 bolt), then the cam signal will not be correct. Your 09 should be using a 4x sprocket, with 58x crank. The 4x wheel has 4 raised bumps of different lengths on the front face of the camshaft sprocket. Sounds like you are going back in to change cams, when you get to that point confirm which one you have

Completely agree ^^^

The low lift of the cam means nothing for the idle. 224/230 @.50 is very aggresive for a stock 5.3. The low lift just allows you to leave the stock springs. I think you’ll be very pleased with the stage 2 came they’re sending you. You’re having to change the springs for the stage 2 because the cam has more lift, but able to use your stock converter because the cam has a lot less duration, so your power band will come in much sooner.

[Low Elco]

Well, I got the cam out last night, with 5/16 wood dowels to hold up the lifters for the next week, and got it shipped to Aaron at Tooley, who's been great. It's coming back with a set of springs, a nifty compressor, and a new cam retainer plate and bolts. We'll see what happens next weekend.

[Low Elco]

New cam came in last night, this one's a Comp. Hopefully starting tonight. Wish me luck!

[Low Elco]

New cam is in (after re-tapping the cam bolt holes) springs tonight!

[Low Elco]

Well, truck is reassembled. New cam is a vast improvement. Much better idle and vacuum. Truck still runs like crap, random misfires, and to top it off, the throttle body has caught a case of the stupids and wants to idle at 2800. Looked it up, apparently it's a thing, tried the relearn procedure, no soap. Was so disgusted I couldn't look at it anymore on Sunday. At least it kinda runs. This week I'll try plugs/wires/coils, and go borrow Eric's tech 2 and see if I can figure out how to erase the codes and do a force relearn on the TB. At least the big work is out of the way. Again.

[Low Elco]

Victory! Well, sorta. Apparently, you don't gap iridium plugs. I went and got good ol r44ts's yesterday and new wires, and Voila! runs good. Still idles high as all hell, but the cam parts and the running parts are good. Just need this idiot TB to calm down. But that's ok , my youngest overheated my s10 (good ol spare truck) and spit the intake gasket out. Wheee! Thanks for watching!