How do you guys like to install cast iron intakes, and engine question

[71CHEVYSHORTBED402]

Gasket sealent(s):

Never installed an intake, and it's next on the agenda. I'm using a Fel-pro gasket kit. I know there's a specific sequence, torque to 25 ft. lbs. and seal the bolt threads. If I recall a conversation with Fel-pro about their kit, they say seal the four corners between the block and gaskets only.

Then there's this. Is it overkill? https://www.jegs.com/tech-articles/b...ine-specs.html



H20 blues:

Long story some, I had a "little incident" when I cleaned my engine, got water in it. Pretty sure it seeped through the intake. Didn't know it until maybe a week later, when I spun the block and pulled the plugs water drained through a cylinder or two. It wasn't a lot, but none is a lot better option, call it disappointing. I vacuumed and dried the cylinders, fogged them again, oiled things up and spun the crank.

I don't know if it's related or how "normal", but I recently noticed a little rust in the bottom of some pistons, and didn't think to treat them before the pan was installed. Go figure the guts of the engine is the only component I'm not replacing on this. Ran like a top with a previous rebuild, hope to heck it's as good or better with a new chain and that, crossing my fingers.

Before I install the manifold I figure to oil everything I can access (10-30). I'll fog the cylinders again, fill the pan, prime the pump some, and spin the crank some rotations. For what it's worth, the cam and crank spin easily. Anyway, my question is, do you recommend fogging what I can inside the block and heads? Thinking about hitting the engine well, but not sure that's right.

Thanks

[71CHEVYSHORTBED402]

Pretend I didn't ask about fogging inside that block Been a week man.......I'll put some quarts in the pan and spin the block instead. Engine is going to sit another 1.5 years, makes me nervous it will be 5.

[71CHEVYSHORTBED402]

Anyone on the intake however? That video looks pretty good, variance being mine is cast iron.. Fel-pros kit comes with the rubber seals front and back. Do some guys prefer to eliminate those and run a 1/4" bead instead? Seems some do.

I found another video where a guy chimed in with this.........Sounds like he knows what he's doing, though "couple cans of brake cleaner", what the?

First, (I like you guys), compressed air is not needed for this job. He didn't mention vacuum is

Second, intake gaskets do not "blow". Intake manifold gaskets deteriorate over time.

The paper thing (Handyman I am not disrespecting your ability sir) is overkill. Small particles will not be stopped by paper. Wet the paper first to make particles stick to the paper (if you use this process). Ultimately all garbage will end up in the oil pan because you are gonna spray that crap off with straight brake cleaner. Couple cans will do it. After mating surfaces are cleaned, brake clean is gonna be applied generously. Leaves no residue and flushes that crap to the pan. Just remove ALL large particles first.

The abrasive disc is awesome, but GM stopped using these discs 15 years ago because they remove metal (uneven mating surfaces=poor mating). GM makes a green plastic "fingered" disc that works great and removes no metal. Of course use a scraper to remove everything you can first. Be nice to know what that disc is.

Any tiny particles WILL be hammered in combustion chambers. GM recommends a 1/4" bead of sealant. "Nice and thick" is a mess, but do what makes you comfortable after knowing spec.

Make sure sealant is below and above all 4 gasket end tab edges (corners) where the head meets the intake manifold. Let that sealant sit for 5 minutes for tackiness. Carefully install the intake so as not to disturb the sealant too much back and forth. Let the intake sit for another ten minutes. Install intake bolts. Seems to suggest he's on-board with not eliminating the rubber seals.

I use a light coat (LIGHT) of anti-seize (never use Loctite ever, ever, ever, ever, ever except for flex-plate or suspension bolts). Anti seize will not cause bolts to back out once proper torque is applied.

Torque the bolts to spec using a 3 stage torque technique. Divide final torque by 3 and apply each increment to the bolts in sequence. Change the oil and filter. Any crap left over WILL be caught in filter. Change oil and filter at your interval and all will be well. Good time to flush coolant, but not necessary.

18 yr ASE certified GM Tech. I have performed this job at least 150 times on different engines and different makes. You know where to send questions if you need credentials. Peace and have fun.

[franken]

You might want to search the internet for answers on installing a Chevy intake. Many suggest tossing the rubber seal thing for the front and rear and using an automotive silicone sealer. The rubber ones are prone to leaks.

[71CHEVYSHORTBED402]

Originally Posted by franken

You might want to search the internet for answers on installing a Chevy intake. Many suggest tossing the rubber seal thing for the front and rear and using an automotive silicone sealer. The rubber ones are prone to leaks.

I've spent some time on it. There's a lot of info. out there while not much.

I've left a question (pending) here http://www.felpro-only.com/break_roo...play.php?fid=3, but I think they're going to say what's written below. Seems to be a standard response. Since they mention it, my water ports do show some pitting, perhaps I'll get some epoxy.


"Our gasket should be installed clean and dry, no sealant on the gasket or around the ports at all. A little bit of sealant should be used in each of the 4 corners where the end seals meet the intake gaskets. It's ok that a little bit of sealant gets on the gaskets in these areas only.

Make sure the intake & head coolant ports do not have any pitting that could affect sealing. If there is pitting, fill in the damaged areas with a high-quality metal epoxy and level the filling with the original/undamaged sealing surface to ensure a smooth, flat sealing surface."


Some info on pitting. I may not touch it, not sure what you guys think, I've added some pictures. I think some use JB weld. https://www.gm-trucks.com/forums/top...pittingintake/

[71CHEVYSHORTBED402]

Got this response from Fel-Pro, and I couldn't have asked for a better one. That said I can't say I planned for the pitting issue. I'm guessing you should machine the intake with the heads for a proper job. I don't see delivering my block anywhere short of my frame, so I think I'm stuck with epoxy. Can anyone recommend a product?

That said, the old gasket worked the last 26 years and 40K miles, perhaps there's another option? For all I know the Fel-Pro would work too, but I don't think I'd attempt theirs w/o smoothing out the pits. I would ditch the rubber seals regardless. The heads were done in 93, can't say Mickey did the intake as well. I just know he was the best, RIP.

Here's Fel-Pros response:

The only places that any sort of RTV silicone should be applied are in the 4 corners where the intake end seals meet the intake side rail gaskets. Do not apply any sealant to the gaskets, around the ports, on the intake manifold or to the heads in any other locations. Let the gaskets do the sealing, using sealant can cause the gaskets to slip or split during torquing. Some sealant will touch the gaskets in the 4 corners, this is ok. We recommend not running the bead of sealant any further than 1/4" up on the "ears" of the intake gaskets. Use any high-quality (name brand) oil-resistant RTV.

You can leave the rubber end seals out and use RTV in their place if you wish to. The reason to do this is that if the heads have been machined and the intake manifold was not machined to correct the angle it meets the head at, there may be a larger gap where the end seals go. If you choose to do this, apply a bead of silicone, only enough to seal the gap and don't run it any further than 1/4" up onto the intake side rail gaskets. Any excess will get squeezed out, and if you use too much, pieces of silicone can fall into the valley of the engine.

The trenches and mounds - we call them embossments - on the gaskets can face either way. They create sealing load regardless of if they are facing the heads or the intake. Just line the gaskets up with the castings. When a Fel-Pro gasket needs to have a certain side facing up or toward the front of the engine, we will mark it that way. These gaskets are unmarked because they only need to be lined up with the castings, and either side can face up.

We cannot see the pictures, but if the intake and or cylinder head sealing surfaces are pitted or rough, they should be repaired. A machine shop can do this which will lead to a superior surface finish. It is possible to use a high-quality (name brand) metal epoxy to fill in minor pitting to create a smooth sealing surface for the intake. If you choose this route, mix the epoxy per the manufacturer's instructions and apply it to the pitted areas. Using a clean straight blade, carefully drag it across the surface to level out the epoxy in the pitting with the undamaged sealing surface. You do not want to build up the sealing surface in the undamaged areas as this will create an uneven sealing surface. Only level out the damaged areas with the undamaged areas. Let the epoxy cure per the manufacturer's instructions before continuing with the gasket installation.

[franken]

"You can leave the rubber end seals out and use RTV in their place if you wish to."

Exactly as I said...

[71CHEVYSHORTBED402]

Originally Posted by franken

"You can leave the rubber end seals out and use RTV in their place if you wish to."

Exactly as I said...

Yep...........

At this point I'm cleaning up the surfaces best possible. Sounds like JB weld is the ticket for the pitting, I asked them what's best for the application, pending. Shouldn't take much. I may pass on "welding" the entire port seals on the intake, because the gasket has a hole in it. Once I sand the JB smooth, I'll ever so gently block the surfaces and call it good to go, W/O the rubber seals

Wish there was another option, but don't see one short of a machine shop, new heads yadda yack nope!

[franken]

I'm not sure I'd be worried about the pitting. Most if not all isn't on the gasket seal area. I'd get after the high spots with a scaper and maybe some sanding or light DA work.
I also wouldn't worrly about a very thin layer of sealant, as in spread w/ a fingertip just thick enough to fill the pits and not ooze out as the intake is dropped. The issue (opinion) w/ sealer is people glob it on and it oozes into places it doesn't belong.
Myself, I'd be on CL looking for a BB aluminum intake.

[71CHEVYSHORTBED402]

Originally Posted by franken

I'm not sure I'd be worried about the pitting. Most if not all isn't on the gasket seal area. I'd get after the high spots with a scaper and maybe some sanding or light DA work.
I also wouldn't worrly about a very thin layer of sealant, as in spread w/ a fingertip just thick enough to fill the pits and not ooze out as the intake is dropped. The issue (opinion) w/ sealer is people glob it on and it oozes into places it doesn't belong.
Myself, I'd be on CL looking for a BB aluminum intake.

Good advise thanks. I'm a little stuck on original, not sure how much would need to be modified and that using an aluminum intake. I'm using the stove for one. But how nice it would be to handle an aluminum instead. These are pretty heavy.

[jjzepplin]

I have always ditched the rubber and used Red RTV on the ends. This stuff is awesome. A 1/4 inch bead on the engine first left to tack up for a few minutes and then a very thin fresh RTV layer on the intake to adhere to the 1/4 inch bead. I use a very thin later around each water port for the pitting. I first clean up the best I can with a Scotch Brite disc and then the RTV. Nothing around Fuel ports. I have never used any epoxy on any engine in any place whatsoever. Just makes me shiver a bit thinking about it. OH and make sure your RTV is stinky when you open your FRESH tube. The stink is acid and if it is not there (LONG DRAWN OUT STORY THERE!) it will never cure leaving you with a huge gooey problem. If your pitting is really bad (doesn't look too bad to me) then get a different intake.

[RustyPile]

Starting in 1966, I have over 30 years experience as an automobile mechanic (now retired).. I've installed, built, rebuilt, modified, and assembled so many engines of different makes that I lost count long ago..

Years ago, back in the '80s, my wife and I owned/operated a small automotive repair shop.. In those days Olds 307s came equipped with an aluminum intake from the factory.. After several thousand miles of cooling system neglect, the coolant passages in the manifold where it joins the head would erode so bad that leaks would develop.. Water leaked out on the exterior and often times would leak internally and join the oil.. I repaired probably hundreds of them and never used any epoxy or filler of any type.. I'd run a scuff pad over the gasket surface and sometimes I'd lightly media blast the gasket surface around the water passage.. I'd use Mr. Gasket performance gaskets and glue them in place with yellow 3M weather strip cement (gorilla snot), applying a small amount of glue to both sides of the gaskets, just enough to fill the pits but not squeeze into the passages themselves.. Never had a "come back" using this technique..

I suggest the OP quit stressing over those minor pits.. Hit the surfaces with a rotary scuff pad to remove the high spotted build-up and Lightly, I stress LIGHTLY, scuff the gasket surfaces on both the heads and manifold.. DO NOT remove any metal, only the build-up and old gasket.. Don't use the rubber end pieces.. Do as others have said and use some red RTV....

[71CHEVYSHORTBED402]

I saw a video that hit home, the guy says NEVER use a scotch pad of any kind, because if so much as a fragment of it ends up in the engine you're libel to need a new one. Well, of course I used one. Everything was covered up and that, and I vacuumed etc., but in the future I'll avoid them or use with extreme caution. Thanks for all the advise.

[RustyPile]

Originally Posted by 71CHEVYSHORTBED402

I saw a video that hit home, the guy says NEVER use a scotch pad of any kind, because if so much as a fragment of it ends up in the engine you're libel to need a new one. Well, of course I used one. Everything was covered up and that, and I vacuumed etc., but in the future I'll avoid them or use with extreme caution. Thanks for all the advise.

When I, and THOUSANDS of other certified and/or qualified mechanics were using that technique, the internet and You Tube were just a figment of someone's imagination.. I'm not aware of a single case of engine failure because "a piece of something wound up where it shouldn't be.." Wet shop towels - the red rags, not paper towels, stuffed in the lifter valley will catch and hold anything sent their way.. Use a fresh pad each time..

You seem to have already made up your mind as to the process you'll be using, and whose instructions you'll be following.. It's your truck.. It's your engine, and most importantly - it's your money and time.. What ever route you take will just be peachy cream with me..

Sarcasm on: What you read and viewed must be true.. After all it's on the internet, so it must be accurate knowledgeable information.. People who post on You Tube are some of the smartest people in the world.. Sarcasm off..........

[71CHEVYSHORTBED402]

Originally Posted by RustyPile

When I, and THOUSANDS of other certified and/or qualified mechanics were using that technique, the internet and You Tube were just a figment of someone's imagination.. I'm not aware of a single case of engine failure because "a piece of something wound up where it shouldn't be.." Wet shop towels - the red rags, not paper towels, stuffed in the lifter valley will catch and hold anything sent their way.. Use a fresh pad each time..

You seem to have already made up your mind as to the process you'll be using, and whose instructions you'll be following.. It's your truck.. It's your engine, and most importantly - it's your money and time.. What ever route you take will just be peachy cream with me..

Sarcasm on: What you read and viewed must be true.. After all it's on the internet, so it must be accurate knowledgeable information.. People who post on You Tube are some of the smartest people in the world.. Sarcasm off..........

Ha, I know right. The beauty of the internet is this guy says this, the other says that and yack yack yack. Good idea on those shop towels, I'm on my way to the store for ear plugs, brake cleaner and shop towels.

Lots of great advise here. I plan to:

Clean up the surfaces, even if it means some scotch pad. Then I'll LIGHTLY block the surfaces with 320 and 600. I'll smooth out any high points in the pitting.

Store away the JB weld I wasted money on, I'm not using it. Someone mentioned a light coat of seal around all the ports on the head side, not just the water ports. I like the idea. Then I'll chuck the rubber seals and apply 1/4" bead instead.

[jjzepplin]

I would not use sand paper on the surfaces. The gaskets will make up for anything you may encounter as far as "high" spots. That and you will be putting sand into your engine which should be as far as it can be FROM your engine. NOPE! Scrape it- scotch brite it and seal it up, Boom Done! You are over thinking this man.

[RustyPile]

^^^^^^ What he said about the sand paper..^^^^^
Never use sand paper on a partially assembled engine.. It's a sure way to wind up with silica and sand in the oil.. Leave the sand paper for paint work..

[RustyPile]

Originally Posted by RustyPile

^^^^^^ What he said about the sand paper..^^^^^
Never use sand paper on a partially assembled engine.. It's a sure way to wind up with silica and sand in the oil.. Leave the sand paper for paint work..

[EDIT]

If you're going with those blue Fel Pro gaskets, Fel Pro says no adhesive or sealant is needed on the gasket or mating surface.. Run the RTV across the front and rear of the engine between the heads, then shove the gasket "leg" into the bead and line it up on the head. If you follow my recommendations, Use Mr. Gasket or some other aftermarket gasket and coat the gaskets both sides with a thin coat of 3M yellow weather strip adhesive.. Some old timers know the glue by the name "Gorilla Snot".. Like I stated in my previous post, I never had a come back on manifolds that were in way worse shape that yours..

[71CHEVYSHORTBED402]

Originally Posted by jjzepplin

I would not use sand paper on the surfaces. The gaskets will make up for anything you may encounter as far as "high" spots. That and you will be putting sand into your engine which should be as far as it can be FROM your engine. NOPE! Scrape it- scotch brite it and seal it up, Boom Done! You are over thinking this man.

Too late......... I wasn't sure on that one, but it was accounted for. Double supported the bottom, it's sealed shut. Plugged everything up, crank too. Vacuumed, blew off the parameter, vacuumed as I pulled the plugs, and vacuumed some more. Wiped it down and taped off the heads. Made a lot of work for myself man, but I do like my shop vac.

And yeah, I'm overthinking it. And yeah I'm anxious to see if I'll have to pull an engine after the restoration. Guess I'd have earned it. It's been sitting around a while.

BTW not much of peaks just valleys, which is nice. You guys were right, once clean I see the pitting is pretty tamed.

[RustyPile]

This is the proper tool.. https://www.google.com/search?rls=co...iw=819&bih=500

It works better when attached to an air powered grinder.. It uses 3M roloc pads...

[Grumpy old man]

Originally Posted by RustyPile

This is the proper tool.. https://www.google.com/search?rls=co...iw=819&bih=500

It works better when attached to an air powered grinder.. It uses 3M roloc pads...

Yep , A scotch brite roloc on an air grinder makes short work of cleaning cast iron gasket surfaces , With a light touch it will clean them up in a few minutes and being cast cause no damage. they make multiple type discs for the roloc from 36 grit abrasives to flap discs to the scotch brites and the green and yellow "nipple" disc that are great for removing paint and I've used them to prep aircraft for paint work around rivit heads with no damage to the rivit or aluminum skin , They are expensive but will last a while under slow speed and a lighter amount of pressure . I use the purple discs for paint removal in tight areas like door frames and such with good results . On install of cast iron intake manifolds they work great and your done in minutes with clean up then just use some Permatex black ultra on the corners and across the block for a no leak seal .

[Grumpy old man]

You can see after getting the intake installed you can clean up any extra black ultra that squeezed out from laying a bead across the block ,This small block engine had the heads machine surfaced and when installed I had to use the thick valve cover gaskets to prevent valve cover to intake interference and prevent potential leaks .

[71CHEVYSHORTBED402]

Been meaning to get one of those shanks, never got around to it. Another question, go figure. The kit came with a distributor gasket. It didn't have a gasket when I pulled the HEI. You guys use them, I didn't notice a leak.

[G&R's57GMC]

Whatever you do DO NOT use weather strip adhesive on gaskets !

I was trying to take apart a Pontiac V8 for rebuilding. Starting with the intake and prying as hard as I dared it would not come apart .
Then I noticed the yellow snot between the mating surfaces of the intake to the head AND the head and block !

Tried to remove the head , no go ! Started the engine without any head and manifold bolts, reved the heck out of it , nothing ! Power braked it. Still nothing!

The bottom line is the engine was now scrap art and a tribute to “What NOT to do with yellow snot” weather strip adhesive !

BTW Do NOT use it to hold gaskets in place !

USE GasketCinch it’s made for this purpose. Use on one side of gasket and the surface you want to stick it to , let tac up then put them together.

I feel compelled to state the bleeding obvious in this matter because of the hundreds of gaskets I’ve had to waste my time and energy scraping rubbing digging grinding at over the past 30 years as a professional mechanic.

[71CHEVYSHORTBED402]

Originally Posted by G&R's57GMC

Whatever you do DO NOT use weather strip adhesive on gaskets !

I was trying to take apart a Pontiac V8 for rebuilding. Starting with the intake and prying as hard as I dared it would not come apart .
Then I noticed the yellow snot between the mating surfaces of the intake to the head AND the head and block !

Tried to remove the head , no go ! Started the engine without any head and manifold bolts, reved the heck out of it , nothing ! Power braked it. Still nothing!

The bottom line is the engine was now scrap art and a tribute to “What NOT to do with yellow snot” weather strip adhesive !

BTW Do NOT use it to hold gaskets in place !

USE GasketCinch it’s made for this purpose. Use on one side of gasket and the surface you want to stick it to , let tac up then put them together.

I feel compelled to state the bleeding obvious in this matter because of the hundreds of gaskets I’ve had to waste my time and energy scraping rubbing digging grinding at over the past 30 years as a professional mechanic.

You're the second mechanic that suggested GasketCinch. Do you cover the entire gasket, just around all the ports or?

Worth mentioning again that the Fel-pro gaskets I'm using recommend against using sealant of any kind, less the four corners. That's where a smooth surface comes in "use metal epoxy", yadda yadda. Word is baloney, if the pitting isn't bad use a thin coat of sealant. I'm not even sure pitting is an issue, and will trace the gaskets and see.