Metric speedo? WTF?

[davepl]

I didn't want to hijack the thread, but in this thread:

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...=1#post6845447

You can see on his spid the otpion for "KILO SPEEDO". Yet Canada didn't switch to metric until well after 1971.

Unless the truck was built in Canada for export to Mexico or somewhere that was at that time already metric, why would it have it?

[BLT gmc]

Built in Mexico. WOW, so I looked at the post after I typed. I do not have an explanation. I now see it has Canadian equipment.

['68OrangeSunshine]

If you read post # 16, it says it was built by GM and first sold in Sweden. So it's an export model.
Post # 18, Member SS Tim states it has a plant code of "1" which is Oshawa, Canada.
I think GM of Mexico was building trucks for its domestic market then. Not for the US market yet.

[davepl]

It seems Oshawa built almost all of the export vehicles. Probably had something to do with treaties at the time.

For example, if you were in Australia you could not get a right-hand-drive Bonneville, but Canada made a right-hand-drive Parisienne. So at a minimum RHD vehicles came from Canada, and possibly all export trucks and Pontiac so far as I know.

[geezer#99]

Yes, pontiac's too where rhd. My buddy in NZ has a 56 poncho rhd 3ott. Built in Oshawa IIRC.
If you ever go to NZ or Aus the easiest way to tell if any vehicle is an original import or was imported later is if it's a 4 door or a 2 door. Only 4 door's where imported originally.

[68 50th]

Yes the truck that glove box door came from was a Canadian built truck. It was built for export from start. All trucks I have seen here and was sold new by GM and I had opportunity to check out was all built in Canada.

I had a 91 Silverado before sold new here which also was a Canadian built truck.

I converted the speedo in my 71 (which I imported from USA myself) to metric.
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=212620

That metric speedo is also in my avatar.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by davepl

So at a minimum RHD vehicles came from Canada, and possibly all export trucks and Pontiac so far as I know.

Negative. Pontiac built export vehicles for overseas markets in Pontiac, Michigan.

However, the RHD versions were converted after the fact (did not go down the line as RHD).

K

[davepl]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Negative. Pontiac built export vehicles for overseas markets in Pontiac, Michigan.

However, the RHD versions were converted after the fact (did not go down the line as RHD).

K

I'm going to call BS on this without data. I can provide plenty of RHD and export stuff in the Pontiac parts books and shop manuals for the Canadian chassis. I have never seen a factory converted Pontiac.

To be clear, I'm talking 1963-1970, the sixties. No idea what happened in the 50s and 80s.

I'm further going to argue that this is the case because Pontiac and Chevrolet shared chassis and powertrains in the Oshawa plant so it'd make a lot more sense for the limited RHD market, as they did for the limited Canadian market, to build them all on the same chassis.

If they had done Pontiac and Chevrolet separately in the US they'd have to convert two different chassis to RHD.

So, any links?

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by davepl

I'm going to call BS on this without data. I can provide plenty of RHD and export stuff in the Pontiac parts books and shop manuals for the Canadian chassis. I have never seen a factory converted Pontiac.

To be clear, I'm talking 1963-1970, the sixties. No idea what happened in the 50s and 80s.

I'm further going to argue that this is the case because Pontiac and Chevrolet shared chassis and powertrains in the Oshawa plant so it'd make a lot more sense for the limited RHD market, as they did for the limited Canadian market, to build them all on the same chassis.

If they had done Pontiac and Chevrolet separately in the US they'd have to convert two different chassis to RHD.

So, any links?

Stand by; I'll have to track a few examples down from my Australian Pontiac buddies.

While you are waiting I would encourage you to read my intro thread(s) linked below (both the Pontiac version and the one from this forum). You might find them entertaining.

K

[Keith Seymore]

http://forums.performanceyears.com/f...rhd+conversion

Post # 12 and #18.

F cars were built only in Norwood and Lordstown btw (no F cars built in Canada at that time).


http://forums.performanceyears.com/f...rhd+conversion

Post #2, #5 and #11.


http://forums.performanceyears.com/f...rhd+conversion

Post #6

http://www.qldpontiac.com/geninfo.html

Approx 1/2 way down (after the '67 brochure)

K

[Keith Seymore]

I'm going to stop there, just due to time constraints.

Originally Posted by davepl

I'm further going to argue that this is the case because Pontiac and Chevrolet shared chassis and powertrains in the Oshawa plant so it'd make a lot more sense for the limited RHD market, as they did for the limited Canadian market, to build them all on the same chassis.

If they had done Pontiac and Chevrolet separately in the US they'd have to convert two different chassis to RHD.

Basically - GM wouldn't care. If chassis were converted in the aftermarket it wouldn't be on GM's nickel.

Additionally - the aftermarket in this area specializes in unique low volume production runs. Proliferation of chassis (or upfit kits) would be no big dea to them and would be expected, in fact. In a parent/supplier relationship GM would push the added complexity off on them.

Incidentally - I was the program engineering manager for the Vauxhall/Holden RHD Volt programs (in addition to the LHD export programs). In that case we did build RHD on the same line as the rest of the Volt program (in the Detroit - Hamtramck assembly plant).

K

[leftybass209]

Originally Posted by davepl

I can provide plenty of RHD and export stuff in the Pontiac parts books and shop manuals for the Canadian chassis.

At the bottom of just about every book, pamphlet, article, essentially anything that can be used as incriminating evidence in the case of a lawsuit, GM has a statement to the effect of, "All illustrations and specifications contained in this literature are based on the latest product information available at the time of publication. The right is reserved to make changes at any time in prices, colors, materials, equipment, specifications and models, and also to discontinue models. [...]"

GM has changed SEVERAL things mid-year on their vehicles (I'm not being 67-72 specific), or produced literature ahead of production that has options and other things that actually weren't available for purchase.

I find this helpful for two reasons: I too, tried to argue something citing sources from GM literature and have been still proven wrong. Also, I'm taking a State University Argumentation class and have learned many keys to a good argument, and a credible first-hand person always trumps printed materials unless author of said material is present to validate their claims.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by leftybass209

I find this helpful for two reasons: I too, tried to argue something citing sources from GM literature and have been still proven wrong. Also, I'm taking a State University Argumentation class and have learned many keys to a good argument, and a credible first-hand person always trumps printed materials unless author of said material is present to validate their claims.

Well...dang. Thanks for choppin' my legs out from under me...



In a previous life one of my jobs was to review the technical and advertising literature, proofing for accuracy and that the claims could be substantiated. So - I know some mistakes got out there!

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by leftybass209

GM has changed SEVERAL things mid-year on their vehicles (I'm not being 67-72 specific), or produced literature ahead of production that has options and other things that actually weren't available for purchase.

Only "several"?



K

[davepl]

OK, we're talking about different things. I'm talking about production cars. Not coach built conversions or things GM Holden's brass had converted so they could drive a Formula 455 that was never available to customers.

So again, I'm talking about where GM built the RHD export versions of their most popular models - full size Chevy, Pontiac, etc.

If we want to allow coachbuilt, then we need to talk about Camaro 4-door wagons and such nonsense.

And I'm not claiming that I know authoritatively because it's hard to prove a negative, but so far as I can still tell after reading this thread the factory built RHD export vehicles still seem to come from Oshawa. But if I were wrong at least I'd learn something!

[leftybass209]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Only "several"?



K

Haha sorry! I should have went on to say you could only argue to the month and year of the publication. I knew you worked at the plant, but now that I know you also were essentially an editor I think it would make you judge, jury AND execusioner? Lol maybe that's a little much, I won't debate it

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by davepl

OK, we're talking about different things. I'm talking about production cars. Not coach built conversions or things GM Holden's brass had converted so they could drive a Formula 455 that was never available to customers.

So again, I'm talking about where GM built the RHD export versions of their most popular models - full size Chevy, Pontiac, etc.

If we want to allow coachbuilt, then we need to talk about Camaro 4-door wagons and such nonsense.

And I'm not claiming that I know authoritatively because it's hard to prove a negative, but so far as I can still tell after reading this thread the factory built RHD export vehicles still seem to come from Oshawa. But if I were wrong at least I'd learn something!

Negative - I'm talking production cars - at least that was my intent. You may be missing some nuances that the casual observer would not be aware of, like "P" coded VINs on the referenced vehicles (denoting the Pontiac Michigan plant) and export models that were not produced in Canada (such as Grand Prix and Firebird/Camaro).

Or - on the other hand - all of the RHD overseas conversions could be considered "coach built", in the sense that they were stall built, low volume one off modifications of a vehicle that was provided to them.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by davepl

And I'm not claiming that I know authoritatively because it's hard to prove a negative, but so far as I can still tell after reading this thread the factory built RHD export vehicles still seem to come from Oshawa. But if I were wrong at least I'd learn something!

I'm a student of the mid 60's assembly process, particularly of the Pontiac Michigan PMD assembly plant, where all of my vintage Pontiacs were assembled.

Including this one - which was completed 50 years ago this very day...



K

[geezer#99]

Nice GTO!!
So the canuck built and shipped overseas gm's, where they converted here or done in house upon arrival in their destination.
While my buddies 56 poncho was a canadian car I'mm not sure if it was converted here or there in NZ.
I know another guy has a 66 GTO down there that's rhd. He claims it was an original import car for 66 and not imported later in life and converted then as some are.
Just curious!

[davepl]

I can only say with much confidence that the 1969 Pontiac B-body cars were built with RHD export versions in Oshawa.

I should also be clear I'm not talking about conversions, I'm talking about cars that roll off the end of the line as RHD.

I'd have to research further to find out if it applied in prior years (I'm fairly confident back to 1967) or non-B-body cars like the GTO.

I also don't know why we (Canada) were required to build Chevy-based variants of most Pontiac models, but the GTO and Firebird were "pure" Pontiac.

I've never understood blocking out VINs, but the key codes I can understand :-)

[Keith Seymore]

For those who might be interested in reading further I have taken the liberty of compiling some links about the vehicle assembly process (not related to export). These are in depth first-hand accounts from inside the various GM assembly plants.

Eric White is an author, illustrator and Pontiac enthusiast. He had the opportunity to interview a Pontiac assembly line worker, Mr Carl Papke, and recorded that exchange for our benefit.
(Scroll down after the page loads)
“Made in Pontiac” part 1 http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/cgi-b...=9990286562979
“Made in Pontiac” part 2 http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/cgi-b...=9990404596316
“Made in Pontiac” part 3 http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/cgi-b...=9990404601846
“Made in Pontiac” part 4 http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/cgi-b...=9990286562979
“Made in Pontiac” part 5 http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/cgi-b...=9990408229209

Camaro Research Group: Camaro Assembly process, written by John Z Hinckley. John was the assembly launch manager for the new in 1967 Camaro and Corvettes and has meticulously recording the steps to create those cars in the assembly plant. Although specific to Camaros (in this case) most of the techniques and processes will translate into any other vehicle of interest, like trucks or Firebirds.
http://www.camaros.org/assemblyprocess.shtml

John’s documentation is so thorough that I have no motivation to create anything similar to this for truck. I just send folks with questions to this site to start the conversation.

73-87 Photos: http://www.73-87.com/7387info/Assembly%20Line.htm
Nice photos of some pre 1980 pickups going together at my alma mater Chevrolet Flint Assembly. Make sure and scroll down for insightful commentary.

K