Mig/Tig/Stick welding Q's....help...

[botboy]

Alright, I'll start by saying I'm learning about welding, but I think I've come to the limit I can do with my current setup, and I'm looking at upgrading.

My current setups are as follows:
My dad has always had a 30-250 Amp stick welder that works well. Old, but functions well, and since I'm at home when I'm not at school, thats what I use for stick welding functions. Welder runs on 220 single phase and has a 70% duty cycle

I also have a lincoln weld-pak 100 (originally used w/flux core wire) that I've personally upgraded to mig with a 60 Cubic foot bottle, regulator and flow meter (along with some mig wire instead of the flux core). This welder has a whopping 4 voltage settings and variable wire speed. Welder runs on 120 with a pathetic duty cycle.

I think I've come to the limits of what the weld-pak will do, and am looking to upgrade. I like the idea of going tig, but at the cost of used miller econotigs hovering around $1500, the cost is prohibitive.

Now my understanding is that a stick welder would also be what is considered a "power source" for either a mig wire feeder or a tig "inverter"...is this correct? Does this explain why most tig welders are also setup to do stick with an extra set of cables?

If this assumption is correct, can I purchase a tig "inverter", torch, and foot pedal, attach it to my dads stick welder as a power source, attach it to my bottle/reg/flow meter and weld with it? Or is it more complicated than that?

Also, does anyone have any recommendations for inverters? Aside from staying with a major brand such as hobart, miller, or lincoln? Specific models?

My spending limit right now is something around $500, minus whatever I can get by selling the weld-pak.

For application, I generally weld stuff under 1/4", just light fab work, fixing trailers and farm impliments with mig. If I have to weld heavier stuff I do it with the stick welder. I'm also looking to be doing more bodywork, I've done some bodywork with the weld-pak after I converted it to mig but generally the settings are either too hot or too cold and don't do much but either burn thru or not lay a very good weld, thus the need for an upgrade.

Its also my understanding that I could do more with aluminum with a tig than with a standard mig, but that I could weld aluminum with a special mig gun (one that has the spool on the gun itself) and a different argon blend. With tig, would I need a different argon blend to weld aluminum also? Its my understanding that the gun stays the same, is that correct?

[Spoof]

To answer one of your questions, yes a mig works fine for welding aluminium ( it's still not an easy thing to do!) if you get the handle spool for the softer wire.

[TROYLV]

have had good luck EASAB but they are pricey too. your wire feed speed setting will have more efect on the mig welder than the heat range. try adjusting the feed speed and you should get better results.

[Opper77]

Boy oh boy....many questions, so I'll try to answer them in order.....

1. A TIG and Stick power source is whats known as a "constant current" power source while MIG is a "constant voltage" power source. They are fundamentally different and are not directly interchangeable. You CAN get a wire feeder for a constant current source but it is known as a "voltage sensing" feeder and generally not cheap.

2. A "transformer" is a basic buzzbox (AC only) a "rectifier" is basically a "transformer" than can also put out dc (some are dc only while some can be selected) An inverter, in my experience, is a newer technology that has to do with the way the current is generated. It leads to all the newer, lighter, smotther, more powerful welders that you see today. I have used an inverter based machine that was constant current/constant voltage selectable, allowing MIG/TIG/ and stick welding from the same machine. The Miller website has much useful information about these above topics..

3. A welder must be equipped with the proper connections for a foot pedal to be able to vary the output remotely. (usually an amphenol-type plug) and is it doubtful that any older machines would have it (over 15-20 years) You COULD just get a TIG torch and hook it to your Stick welder and it WOULD work(with the proper shielding gas) but there are some difficulties with this
1. no ability to control your current output
2. most welders that are made for TIG have a high-frequency circuit for initializing your arc. You would be limited to a scratch-start TIG setup which can be very frustrating to the new user (lots of wasted tungsten, stuck electrodes and less hair on your head)
3. (if you do try this, be sure to reverse your cables so that the TIG torch is NEG and your ground is POS; AKA "Straight Polarity" which is a must for TIG welding ferrous materials)

4. Any suggestion on a particular welder is basically, in the end, a) what do you REALLY need, and b) what can you REALLY afford. Answer these questions truthfully and go with that. Stay with the big names and I doubt you'll be disappointed. Buy a little more welder than you decide on if you are serious about taking on big projects, just enough if you're at your limit now.

5. An aluminum TIG setup differs from a basic TIG system in that it MUST be AC capable and it has a constant high-freq circuit that always runs (this HF stabilizes the arc and helps to break up the refractory oxide on aluminum) rather than just at arc initialization (as on steel) MOST AC TIG outfits are backward compatible to be able to weld Steel and almost every other material under the sun. Again a welder that is this capable is also good for basic stick welding, and if found at a good price, indispensable.

6. An aluminum MIG setup MUST have a pull type gun rather than the feeder due to the difficulty in pushing the soft wire (think pushing a rope) It must be pulled from the gun end. Also, to add aluminum capability to most basic MIG systems you must buy the converter module that turns the DC current (which 99% of MIG systems are) into AC. You cannot just hook up the gun and go (there are a few welders that have it built in, but they are meant for just that purpose) I just bought an Alum. MIG setup for a Miller at the shop and it cost me $520 CDN (the welder had the module already built in; not sure on the cost of it otherwise)

7. Another drawback to welding aluminum on an already undersized machine is that aluminum, contrary to common sense, take substantially MORE current to weld than, say, mild steel; due to its huge thermal conduction. If you have trouble welding 1/4" steel, you'll be lucky to properly weld 1/8" aluminum with the same machine.

8. The TIG gas is obviously important, and I have had great results with a 75% Helium/25% Argon mix on ALL materials. The helium lets you "cheat" a bit on alum/magnesium as it helps to inject a little more heat into your weld, letting you weld thicker materials longer. It isn't cheap, bit IMO, its worth every penny

9. And finally, yes the TIG torch is the same, but the type of tungsten changes with steel and aluminum. With steel, you'll want a RED (2% Thoriated) ground to a point 2-3 times the electrode diameter while with aluminum you'll want a GREEN (pure tungsten) or BROWN (zircon.) which both are left very blunt and will round when welding due to the AC current. I have welded Alum. with the RED with good results but the Green/Brown don't do well with the DC current (they have lower melting points)


I hope the above information helps in some ways. Not to bring you down, but your weldpak probably isn't worth much used, and $500 and change probably won't get you everything you want. It will cost you just as much to get an older machine to do what a newer one will cost off the shelf. The Miller EcontoTigs are a good machine, and worth the $1500 you'd pay for it. I guess the next step is to take the above point #4. What is "the next step" worth to you?

Good luck, and I hope I cleared a few things up for you.

[Opper77]

One other quick point... on a MIG welder, the wire speed is actually your "HEAT" and voltage serves as pressure, or "puddle fluidity" On thick materials, the wire speed goes up WITH the voltage (ideally, they are a 5-6/1 ratio ie 120Amps, 20 Volts) for a decent weld on 3/16" plate, and vice-versa for thin steel. On machines with no actual numerical values, if you really want to be picky, use an ammeter and voltmeter to calibrate them.

[Tx Firefighter]

I think you may be happier with your WeldPak100 if you can get it working better.

I have that exact same welder and I can easily weld up anything sheetmetal on a truck. Holes, cracks, patch panels, whatever.

With the proper settings, it will do anything you want on sheetmetal.

I also have a Millermatic 250 MIG welder and I always use the little Lincoln on thin stuff. It works better for me than the bigger welder does.

[botboy]

Originally Posted by Opper77

One other quick point... on a MIG welder, the wire speed is actually your "HEAT" and voltage serves as pressure, or "puddle fluidity" On thick materials, the wire speed goes up WITH the voltage (ideally, they are a 5-6/1 ratio ie 120Amps, 20 Volts) for a decent weld on 3/16" plate, and vice-versa for thin steel. On machines with no actual numerical values, if you really want to be picky, use an ammeter and voltmeter to calibrate them.

Is this just the smaller mig welders that do this? At work I use a miller mig setup where the power source and wire feeder are separate modules, and I can't see any way that the speed of the wire feeder could possibly affect voltage or amperage output of the power source.

I think you may be happier with your WeldPak100 if you can get it working better.

I have that exact same welder and I can easily weld up anything sheetmetal on a truck. Holes, cracks, patch panels, whatever.

With the proper settings, it will do anything you want on sheetmetal.

I also have a Millermatic 250 MIG welder and I always use the little Lincoln on thin stuff. It works better for me than the bigger welder does.

I can (and have) welded sheetmetal with it, but there are a couple things I don't like about it that make me want to upgrade to a better welder:
1) The duty cycle is really pathetic, something around 20%, weld too long with it and it pops an internal breaker and i'm stuck waiting 10-15 minutes for it to work again
2) No gas valve. Turn on the gas at the bottle/flow meter, and thats how much it flows whether you're welding or not. Wasteful at best.
3) I consider the 4 settings for heat and infinitely variable wirespeed imprecise at best...I can make good welds with it, but it requires a lot of tinkering with settings over time....whereas the miller mig at work, I can set it, pull the trigger, and forget it, makes the same consistency welds over and over again, which the little lincoln never seems to do over an extended period of time.

[Tx Firefighter]

Botboy, there is something wrong with your Lincoln, you need to get it serviced.

1) there is an internal solenoid that controls gas flow. You pull the trigger, the gas flows, you release the trigger the gas quits flowing. It does not flow all of the time that the bottle is turned on.

2) In like 6 years that I've had it, my Lincoln has never popped any circuit breaker. I weld with it turned up to the highest power setting all of the time. Never has it shut off.

[botboy]

Originally Posted by Tx Firefighter

Botboy, there is something wrong with your Lincoln, you need to get it serviced.

1) there is an internal solenoid that controls gas flow. You pull the trigger, the gas flows, you release the trigger the gas quits flowing. It does not flow all of the time that the bottle is turned on.

2) In like 6 years that I've had it, my Lincoln has never popped any circuit breaker. I weld with it turned up to the highest power setting all of the time. Never has it shut off.

1) Looks like i got some misinformation....I asked a lincoln dealer what all was required to convert the welder to mig, he told me a regulator, bottle and tubing...well, I got those (From a friends dad who owned a machinery sales company, not from the kit)...except I looked online just now and looks like the kit also includes a shut-off selenoid....I feel stupid...

2) I'll investigate that, its only popped the internal breaker (or maybe its a temperature shutoff?) when welding at high heat settings for extended periods of time. I suppose its very possible that the shutoff is bad, I haven't really had a problem with this except when welding for extended times so I haven't investigated getting it fixed

[botboy]

Okay so at very least, for the time being I'll be looking to get a solenoid for it...TX Firefighter, could you tell me what voltage the one on your weld-pak is? I could pay some ridiculous price for one off of lincoln's website or I could just have my dad grab me one from his work if I could find the specs on it...

[Tx Firefighter]

the solenoid is built into the unit. Yours already has it.

It's already hooked up to the trigger on the gun.

I believe once you get yours converted to gas, you won't want another machine right away.

I use mine for a lot of fabrication and it impresses me all the time. I have built more trailers that I can count with it.

[Opper77]

Quote: Is this just the smaller mig welders that do this? At work I use a miller mig setup where the power source and wire feeder are separate modules, and I can't see any way that the speed of the wire feeder could possibly affect voltage or amperage output of the power source.


Botboy, this is the way ALL Constant Voltage machines work (ALL MIG) whether they are integrated or seperate. Its just the way they must work due to the power supply having the flat volt/amp curve that they do. Believe it or not, it is the truth. Pick up any welding textbook to find out more about this.

There are different sizes of Weldpaks out there, some are 15 AMP draw while some are 20 AMP draw.....try a different circuit in your garage that might have a dedicated breaker for the one plug and you may find it works better. I have had mixed results with these welders (depending on the project) and I agree that a 20% duty cycle is pathetic if you're working on a big project. I have witnessed the breaker blowing and what not, and cursed it to death, but in those cases you just have to be patient an let the welder catch up.

[Palf70Step]

Not meaning to steal the thread, but thanks to all of you. I learned an awful lot about welders that I never knew, even though I do a good bit of welding. Thanks for the question botboy and all the insight Opper77 and TX Firefighter. Very good thread to me.

[botboy]

Originally Posted by Tx Firefighter

the solenoid is built into the unit. Yours already has it.

It's already hooked up to the trigger on the gun.

I believe once you get yours converted to gas, you won't want another machine right away.

I use mine for a lot of fabrication and it impresses me all the time. I have built more trailers that I can count with it.

I'm absolutely sure that this one doesn't have it. First off, its a weld-pak with a partial mig conversion, not a mig pak. And with gas, its a far better machine than when it was flux-core only, but I'm still wanting to do more.

The only bung or fitting for any sort of gas is attached to the tube between the front of the case and the wire reels, and goes directly out, no sort of flow control whatsoever. Apparently lincoln sells the solenoids as part of kits like this:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...48801?v=glance

You get Argon regulator, 52 in. gas hose with fittings, gas solenoid, gun liner for .025-.030 in. wire, two .025 in. contact tips, gas nozzle and 2-lb. spool of .025 in. L-56 MIG welding wire. Shielding gas not included.

Now, I've seen the smallish lincoln welders with built-in solenoids (like yours), they usually have the gas fitting on the backside of the case sort of near the power cord.

Also, if there was a solenoid, it should "click" every time I pull the trigger like every other mig welder with a gas solenoid I've ever used, and it doesn't, because there isn't one there.

[Tx Firefighter]

I used mine for flux cored for a year or two, then converted it.

I bought the conversion kit at Home Depot for like 100 bucks. I'm pretty sure I didn't install any solenoid. I remember it was already inside the machine.

It does click when you pull the trigger.

If yours is different, you may think about getting a Lincoln brand conversion kit. It will pay for itself in Argon savings by not flowing all the time.

[bagged81]

Originally Posted by Tx Firefighter

I used mine for flux cored for a year or two, then converted it.

I bought the conversion kit at Home Depot for like 100 bucks. I'm pretty sure I didn't install any solenoid. I remember it was already inside the machine.

I did the EXACT same thing. However, I worked at Home Depot and got a discount.

[botboy]

Heh...well, guess I've got some work to do:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...e=STRK:MEWN:IT

300 Amp Miller welder, won it at $128.00, about 60 miles from where I currently sit...gonna go pick it up next week. Going to see if I can have it rewired to single phase 220, otherwise I think I'll end up swapping the motor with one than will run on single phase 220...also need to keep an eye on ebay for the "gun" assembly....

I'm also waiting for an auction to end for a high frequency arc starter/stabilizer and tig gun that will plug into a buzzbox power source. Hoping that will end at the current price just over $100...