47-55.1 What's going wrong inside my 350?

[NeoJuice]

Some further information for reference only. Found this information on http://garage.grumpysperformance.com

[DransportGarage]

I apologize for the bad info in posts #186 and #199, re: sprocket marks. (...and, I'm shocked). I suppose I always stuff my finger in the #1 spark plug hole and turn the crank to be sure I'm on the compression stroke and near TDC before I stab the distributor into the block. I've never put one in 180 degrees out either. Thinking about this, I'm always turning the crank to set the valves after the valve train is installed, so I never see the sprocket marks after I'm done screwing around.

I'll leave my prior posts as-is, but will mark them as INCORRECT so your posts will make sense.

[dsraven]

if it ran before and you didn't pull the distributor out then it will run again, just like before, if the timing marks are set the same as it was before you took th gears off.
if the previous owner had something not quite right, like he was 180 deg out, and he set the distributor in at a different spot than usual it just means the plug wires don't fit the same on the cap as the original was or the manual says because #1 cyl wire isn't where it usually is according to the manual. it will still run and you can set the timing etc the same as you normally would. it's no biggie, really, to have the #1 spark plug wire in a different spot than stock except the plug wires locate in a different tower on the cap. the firing order will stay the same. as long as the wires are long enough and in good shape so they don't induce spark in another wire when they sit next to each other in a different than stock configuration.

[Black_Sheep]

Originally Posted by NeoJuice

This is correct. I did turn the engine so that the cam was at 6 and crank 12 to line up the gears properly.

After I installed the chain I turned the motor to TDC on #1 so it was back to 12 cam, 12 crank. This is the way it was before I removed the old gears. As I mentioned I removed the distributor cap and the rotor was pointing at #1 with crank 12 cam 12.

So are you saying that my distributor is 180 out? I'm confused.

Initially before removing the balancer I turned the motor over by hand & stuck my finger in the #1 hole and turned the crank over by hand until it blasted strong air against my finger then lined up the marker on the dampener to 0 degrees. This is when I started disassembly. When removing the timing chain cover the marks were cam 12, crank 12. So that should be TDC on #1.

Installing the gears with the dots properly positioned only indicates that the cam and crank are properly phased with each other, it has nothing to do with the distributor. Having the rotor pointing at #1 with both dots at 12 o clock could be purely coincidental.

[NeoJuice]

Originally Posted by DransportGarage

I apologize for the bad info in posts #186 and #199, re: sprocket marks. (...and, I'm shocked). I suppose I always stuff my finger in the #1 spark plug hole and turn the crank to be sure I'm on the compression stroke and near TDC before I stab the distributor into the block. I've never put one in 180 degrees out either. Thinking about this, I'm always turning the crank to set the valves after the valve train is installed, so I never see the sprocket marks after I'm done screwing around.

I'll leave my prior posts as-is, but will mark them as INCORRECT so your posts will make sense.

Thank you.

[NeoJuice]

Originally Posted by dsraven

if it ran before and you didn't pull the distributor out then it will run again, just like before, if the timing marks are set the same as it was before you took th gears off.
if the previous owner had something not quite right, like he was 180 deg out, and he set the distributor in at a different spot than usual it just means the plug wires don't fit the same on the cap as the original was or the manual says because #1 cyl wire isn't where it usually is according to the manual. it will still run and you can set the timing etc the same as you normally would. it's no biggie, really, to have the #1 spark plug wire in a different spot than stock except the plug wires locate in a different tower on the cap. the firing order will stay the same. as long as the wires are long enough and in good shape so they don't induce spark in another wire when they sit next to each other in a different than stock configuration.

I didn't pull the distributor and the timing marks are the same as before removal. Everything is new. New manifold, wires, distributor. When I bought the truck it had a tri-power manifold on it with the wrong carbs.

Everything has been replaced. See pictures. I set the new distributor in when I replaced the manifold and set the TDC and #1 spark plug wire on the rotor and cap. It had an old 'points' mallory distributor in it so I replaced it with a MSD HEI.

[NeoJuice]

OK I got out in the garage for my 5 minutes today. First thing I tried was to loosen the first 5 bolts on each side of the oil pan about 1/4'. I figured this might be enough from what I'm read online.

Well I'll tell you that pan will not budge. The oil pan that's on the truck is a thick aluminum pan and there is no give what's so ever probably compared to a stock metal pan. I carefully tried to stick a flat head screw driver on each side into the front of the pan to even try and move it a 1/16' and it's not moving. I suspect because of the thick aluminum style pan.

I've read that the pre-75 350 has a thinner front timing chain cover seal. Would maybe switching to this type of seal help me get the timing chain cover on? I've also read online of guys filling the chain cover seal area with Permatex and then sticking it on hence making there own gasket. Of course I dont want any leaks but if possible changing to the thinner gasket might help?

I dont know why they made the seal so damm thick as well as to long to fit on the pan lip. I know they want it to be tight but even just trying to fit the seal in there on the edge by itself it buckles. I compared the old gasket that was on there to the new and there both the same size.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.

[DransportGarage]

Originally Posted by NeoJuice

OK I got out in the garage for my 5 minutes today. First thing I tried was to loosen the first 5 bolts on each side of the oil pan about 1/4'. I figured this might be enough from what I'm read online.

Well I'll tell you that pan will not budge. The oil pan that's on the truck is a thick aluminum pan and there is no give what's so ever probably compared to a stock metal pan. I carefully tried to stick a flat head screw driver on each side into the front of the pan to even try and move it a 1/16' and it's not moving. I suspect because of the thick aluminum style pan.

I've read that the pre-75 350 has a thinner front timing chain cover seal. Would maybe switching to this type of seal help me get the timing chain cover on? I've also read online of guys filling the chain cover seal area with Permatex and then sticking it on hence making there own gasket. Of course I dont want any leaks but if possible changing to the thinner gasket might help?

I dont know why they made the seal so damm thick as well as to long to fit on the pan lip. I know they want it to be tight but even just trying to fit the seal in there on the edge by itself it buckles. I compared the old gasket that was on there to the new and there both the same size.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.

You said "any thoughts or suggestions...", so here goes. (My credibility is shot anyway after the timing chain advice! )

You are trying something I would not try because I would end up with one of two things: 1) a small leak, or 2) a large leak. I'd remove the pan, clean it and the block, and re-install after the TC cover is on. (...and, of course, check all torqued bolts, including the oil pump bolt, inspect a rod bearing, and would make sure the sump is tight on the pump and somewhere near the bottom of the pan. You'll be able to see your cam lobes too, to be sure they're not rounded off.)

Also, the diecast aluminum pan will break before it bends.

That said, I believe folks have had luck not dropping the pan entirely, so I'll listen to any success stories.

[NeoJuice]

Thanks for the input Bob. I guess I know what I have to do.

[NeoJuice]

I know I haven't posted an update in a while. I had a friend come over to help yesterday to set the carb and the timing. Currently running 10-12 vacuum and 32 degrees total timing and 10 degrees base timing. My buddy not only used his timing light but also brought a vacuum gauge with him.

New issues are the truck burped twice and threw up all the coolant all over the ground twice. The current idle temp at idle warm temp is about 210 according to my gauge but if you rev the motor up it cools down to about 185. The fan is kicking on at 185 when it should but my buddy thinks that I need a smaller water pump pulley to make it spin faster to keep the temp down.

Also I have no brake pedal I have to pump, pump, pump to build up some pressure to make the brakes work. So that issue need to be resolved.

I'm not sure what psi cap is on the rad if that makes a difference. After the truck was cooling down there was a consistent hissss from the rad cap. Even though we re-filled the water level to just above the fins my overflow bottle was almost full. After checking it this morning it didn't suck any of the fluid back into the rad. So I'm not sure what is going on there and it might need a lower psi rad cap and not sure what PSI cap is on the rad currently.

Even through all these issues I'm getting closer to driving it. Well I did drive it yesterday for the first time and turned it around in the drive way and it went into gear properly so that's a good sign. My buddy thought that turning it around in the driveway and changing the angle of the truck might burp the last of the air out of the system i'm not sure that happened yet.

Here is the small video of the tuning. Also i'm not sure of the manual mustang II steering yet. It was a ***** to turn the wheel at slow speed. So it might be getting a power steering upgrade sometime soon.

So much quieter with the edelbrock double roller timing chain then the Pete Jackson timing gears. I love the sound of the truck now and I can actually hear the exhaust.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/wVPWz9fjaGRLeQYD8

[DransportGarage]

Originally Posted by NeoJuice

I know I haven't posted an update in a while. I had a friend come over to help yesterday to set the carb and the timing. Currently running 10-12 vacuum and 32 degrees total timing and 10 degrees base timing. My buddy not only used his timing light but also brought a vacuum gauge with him.

New issues are the truck burped twice and threw up all the coolant all over the ground twice. The current idle temp at idle warm temp is about 210 according to my gauge but if you rev the motor up it cools down to about 185. The fan is kicking on at 185 when it should but my buddy thinks that I need a smaller water pump pulley to make it spin faster to keep the temp down.

Also I have no brake pedal I have to pump, pump, pump to build up some pressure to make the brakes work. So that issue need to be resolved.

I'm not sure what psi cap is on the rad if that makes a difference. After the truck was cooling down there was a consistent hissss from the rad cap. Even though we re-filled the water level to just above the fins my overflow bottle was almost full. After checking it this morning it didn't suck any of the fluid back into the rad. So I'm not sure what is going on there and it might need a lower psi rad cap and not sure what PSI cap is on the rad currently.

Even through all these issues I'm getting closer to driving it. Well I did drive it yesterday for the first time and turned it around in the drive way and it went into gear properly so that's a good sign. My buddy thought that turning it around in the driveway and changing the angle of the truck might burp the last of the air out of the system i'm not sure that happened yet.

Here is the small video of the tuning. Also i'm not sure of the manual mustang II steering yet. It was a ***** to turn the wheel at slow speed. So it might be getting a power steering upgrade sometime soon.

So much quieter with the edelbrock double roller timing chain then the Pete Jackson timing gears. I love the sound of the truck now and I can actually hear the exhaust.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/wVPWz9fjaGRLeQYD8

Sounds very nice!

The diameter of the water pump pulley should be fine, considering the temps you are talking about. Water/anti-freeze mix boils at about 212, and you can add 3 degrees of psi for every pound of pressure you are holding. So, if you have a 12 psi cap your coolant won't boil until about 248 degrees. I can't tell from here how much pressure is in the system while it is hissing, but if it hisses until all of the pressure is out, you have a bad cap or debris under the cap or an uneven surface under the cap, prohibiting the cap from sealing. I'd start by trying a different cap. That would also explain why you're not sucking fluid out of the overflow bottle during cool-down. It's sucking air instead.

On the brakes, start by bleeding them again to see if you can get some pedal.

[NeoJuice]

Originally Posted by DransportGarage

Sounds very nice!

The diameter of the water pump pulley should be fine, considering the temps you are talking about. Water/anti-freeze mix boils at about 212, and you can add 3 degrees of psi for every pound of pressure you are holding. So, if you have a 12 psi cap your coolant won't boil until about 248 degrees. I can't tell from here how much pressure is in the system while it is hissing, but if it hisses until all of the pressure is out, you have a bad cap or debris under the cap or an uneven surface under the cap, prohibiting the cap from sealing. I'd start by trying a different cap. That would also explain why you're not sucking fluid out of the overflow bottle during cool-down. It's sucking air instead.

On the brakes, start by bleeding them again to see if you can get some pedal.

DransportGarage,

Thanks for the reply & the information is much appreciated. The hissing I was hearing was with the truck parked and letting it cool off for a couple hours. It hissed for a long time from the cap. I dont suspect the problem to be with my home made Johnny walker over flow tank.

What PSI cap should I get? I'm not sure what cap PSI I currently have I guess I'll pull off the sticker and see if it says anything. Is there a recommended PSI I should get?

Here are some pictures I have of the cap. When she burped out the coolant twice there was a lot that came out it made a big mess. We topped it up more with 50/50 but when we ran out of that it was topped up with water. I believe the first burp came from under the cap and de-pressurized itself probably like its designed to do and filled the overflow bottle. Then we took the cap off and ran the truck longer with no cap on and it burped again and puked coolant everywhere.

I'll have to look through my receipts and see what temp thermostat I put in the truck. I know the fan switch is a painless 185 on 175 off for the electric fan. I know that is working good. I'm just wondering if the thermostat might need to be changed out for a lower temp. I'm thinking maybe a 195 is in there, I would need to double check. I'm also thinking I have the wrong thermostat in there for the temp of the fan switch as well. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

I'm not sure what brand name radiator is in the truck either. It has a built in tranny cooler and fits in the stock location and bolts into the stock Chevy rad support bolt holes.

I'll tell you the top of the rad gets dammm hot. Do not touch lol.

[NeoJuice]

I just phoned Painless Performance and they said I should be running a 180 thermostat in the truck to make sure the 185 on 175 off fan relay switch works properly. So I guess that will need to be changed out. now I need to figure out the rad cap issue.

[DransportGarage]

Since you have a modern radiator, you can go at least as high as 15 psi. I'd get something in the 12-15 psi range. For instance, Be Cool Radiators recommends a 13 psi cap for all of their radiators.

[dsraven]

do you have a heater? if you use a cap pressure that would work with the modern rad, like 13-16 psi, it may be more than the old heater core can stand. possible issue one.
with engine running at temp check the heater core hoses to ensure you have hot coolant going in and out. if one hose is cold then there could be no flow through the heater core. this means the heater becomes a big air tank that stores pressure sometimes the heater hoses are routed such that they become a "P" trap that doesn't let flow through. in some really bad cases, like vehicles with rear heaters, I have had to disconnect the hoses to the heater and pump fluid through the heater to fill it up.
possible issue two.
look under the rad cap, like flip it upside down, and see if there is a rubber gasket there. it should have 2 seals, one that seals down in the neck of the spout and one that seals at the top edge of the spout. old systems didn't use an overflow bottle so no need for the seal from the cap to the rad, the top of the spout. the newer systems with overflow tanks need a sealed cap so it blows at the rated pressure but then seals the system down to the overflow tank. that means when it cools off it can draw fluid back into the rad because the hose to the tank is sealed in the system. the cap needs to be the right depth for the rad spout as well. it needs to seal on the inner and outer part. possible issue three.
ensure to use actual coolant, not water, because it raises the boiling point of the water and also has anti-corrosion properties. possible issue four

[dsraven]

oh yeah, possible issue five. ensure to use a GM stat, not a cheap aftermarket one. I quit using the aftermarket thermostats long time ago. they are not predictable for opening temp.
one thing that can also be done is install a bleeder screw in the stat housing to bleed the system of air. common in newer vehicles. some install them in heter hoses using a fitting of some sort. the fittings are available seperately.

http://www.dieselhub.com/maintenance...ant-flush.html

or this

https://www.carjunky.com/products/20...mostat-Housing

or this fitting

https://www.amazon.ca/Dorman-902-112.../dp/B003SODYQW

[dsraven]

old rads had taller upper tanks that were basically a surge tank. they were filled and any higher levels of coolant simply burped out until they found their own level. the newer rads have shorter top tanks and use an overflow or surge tank. the old rads were sized for the system so the top tank was big enough for the amount of heat and expansion of the fluid in order to store enough coolant for the engine size and heat generation. the newer ones size the surge tank accordingly. how big is your surge tank?

[DransportGarage]

Originally Posted by dsraven

if you use a cap pressure that would work with the modern rad, like 13-16 psi, it may be more than the old heater core can stand. possible issue one.
with engine running at temp check the heater core hoses to ensure you have hot coolant going in and out. if one hose is cold then there could be no flow through the heater core. this means the heater becomes a big air tank that stores pressure sometimes the heater hoses are routed such that they become a "P" trap that doesn't let flow through. in some really bad cases, like vehicles with rear heaters, I have had to disconnect the hoses to the heater and pump fluid through the heater to fill it up.
possible issue two.
look under the rad cap, like flip it upside down, and see if there is a rubber gasket there. it should have 2 seals, one that seals down in the neck of the spout and one that seals at the top edge of the spout. old systems didn't use an overflow bottle so no need for the seal from the cap to the rad, the top of the spout. the newer systems with overflow tanks need a sealed cap so it blows at the rated pressure but then seals the system down to the overflow tank. that means when it cools off it can draw fluid back into the rad because the hose to the tank is sealed in the system. the cap needs to be the right depth for the rad spout as well. it needs to seal on the inner and outer part. possible issue three.
ensure to use actual coolant, not water, because it raises the boiling point of the water and also has anti-corrosion properties. possible issue four

Some great points here. I forgot about the heater core. I run a 13 psi cap in my '55 sedan with my ORIGINAL heater core (yes, only 61,000 pampered miles), but that doesn't mean you won't have a problem. Looks like the original cap was 7 psi, but I don't know anyone that runs them that low. (It's probably done all the time. I just lead a sheltered life!)

[NeoJuice]

Originally Posted by dsraven

do you have a heater? if you use a cap pressure that would work with the modern rad, like 13-16 psi, it may be more than the old heater core can stand. possible issue one.
with engine running at temp check the heater core hoses to ensure you have hot coolant going in and out. if one hose is cold then there could be no flow through the heater core. this means the heater becomes a big air tank that stores pressure sometimes the heater hoses are routed such that they become a "P" trap that doesn't let flow through. in some really bad cases, like vehicles with rear heaters, I have had to disconnect the hoses to the heater and pump fluid through the heater to fill it up.
possible issue two.
look under the rad cap, like flip it upside down, and see if there is a rubber gasket there. it should have 2 seals, one that seals down in the neck of the spout and one that seals at the top edge of the spout. old systems didn't use an overflow bottle so no need for the seal from the cap to the rad, the top of the spout. the newer systems with overflow tanks need a sealed cap so it blows at the rated pressure but then seals the system down to the overflow tank. that means when it cools off it can draw fluid back into the rad because the hose to the tank is sealed in the system. the cap needs to be the right depth for the rad spout as well. it needs to seal on the inner and outer part. possible issue three.
ensure to use actual coolant, not water, because it raises the boiling point of the water and also has anti-corrosion properties. possible issue four

DsRaven,

-No heater so no heater core issues there yet.

-The cap that was on the rad is not in great shape. The rubber is not in good condition. I suspect because either the truck sat for such a long time and the rubber gasket on the lid and the one that seals down in the neck of the spout dried out a little. So a new cap is on order.

-I was running 50/50 mix in the truck but as I mentioned after the second burp we ended up adding a little water. I will top it off with more 50/50 mix. I'm going to napa today to get a new thermostat, coolant and rad cap.

-The cap that was on the rad had a 1.1 stamped into it. From what I can find online its a 16psi cap. Everything I found on the napa website says 16psi and also on rockauto. So I guess a new 16psi cap is what is going back on there. Ill talk with my parts guy to see what he thinks.

[NeoJuice]

Originally Posted by dsraven

oh yeah, possible issue five. ensure to use a GM stat, not a cheap aftermarket one. I quit using the aftermarket thermostats long time ago. they are not predictable for opening temp.
one thing that can also be done is install a bleeder screw in the stat housing to bleed the system of air. common in newer vehicles. some install them in heter hoses using a fitting of some sort. the fittings are available seperately.

http://www.dieselhub.com/maintenance...ant-flush.html

or this

https://www.carjunky.com/products/20...mostat-Housing

or this fitting

https://www.amazon.ca/Dorman-902-112.../dp/B003SODYQW

That bleeder valve is pretty cool idea. Thanks for the tip. I usually buy the premium parts from Napa.

[dsraven]

for overheating, after getting the rad and etc right, you might check the water pump/intake gaskets/head gaskets you have. if it was a home rebuild the guy may have put the wrong gaskets in blocking coolant passages. if you have the water pump with the plug near the intake that plug can be loosened to let air out and bleed the system, then tightened back up.

[NeoJuice]

Originally Posted by dsraven

for overheating, after getting the rad and etc right, you might check the water pump/intake gaskets/head gaskets you have. if it was a home rebuild the guy may have put the wrong gaskets in blocking coolant passages. if you have the water pump with the plug near the intake that plug can be loosened to let air out and bleed the system, then tightened back up.

I do have the vent on the top of the water pump. Yesterday I picked up a 180 thermostat, new rad cap and some coolant. Didnt have enough time to get it swapped out yesterday but at least I got the coolant drained last night. I'll be swapping the thermostat tonight hopefully.

[dsraven]

on the brake issue, if you have rear drum style (or front and rear drum) the park brake is an integral part of the rear brake adjustment. the star wheel sits at one end of the shoes and is adjustable for that end of the shoes. the other end of the shoes sits against the wheel cylinder pistons AND the park brake mechanism. if the park brake is not connected or adjusted incorrectly then the shoe return springs will bring that end of the shoes all the way back to butt against their stops. the wheel cylinders will be fully retracted. the star wheel end can be adjusted right up but still the brake pedal needs to be "pumped" because the park brake mechanism is not adjusted to keep that end of the shoes adjusted close to the drum. this will require the operator to pump the brakes in order to get the wheel cylinders out far enough to push the shoes out against the drums on that end of the shoes.
usually the way i adjust brakes like this is to start by checking the components to ensure everything is in decent shape. start at the pedal and check all the linkage and pivot points for wear or binding. ensure there is a pedal stop and a return spring. this seems trivial but can lead to all kinds of brake trouble if the pedal is not allowed to return fully so the pushrod in the master cylinder can return fully and allow the fluid return/supply port to be open to the system with foot off the pedal. also check the backing plates where the shoes touch. it is fairly common on older vehicles to have a little groove worn in the backing plate and the brake shoes can drop into this groove and want to stay there. the springs will not have enough power to bring the shoes all the way back like they should be. also ensure the park brake works correctly and is not sticky and returns completely etc.
loosen the park brake off so that end of the shoe is taken out of play as far as getting the star wheel end of the shoe adjusted. in other words, if the park brake is adjusted up the wheel cyl end of the shoes can drag as the star wheel brings the other end of the shoes out towards the drum and this can give a false adjustment of the star wheel. get the star wheel end adjusted, step on the brakes a couple times to set the shoes centered in their drums, recheck, then adjust the park brake to bring the wheel cylinder end of the shoes out to match the drum on that end. again, recheck. sometimes it is required to further adjust the star wheel again. some guys will try to run without park brakes and then wonder why they have poor brakes and have to pump them up. it is because the wheel cylinder end of the shoes requires that many pumps of the pedal to get the shoes out against the drums if the park brake mechanism has been disabled or is siezed up in the retracted position.
if you have disc front and drum rear ensure you have the correct master cylinder and it has a residual valve built in for the drum brakes. this is to keep a bit of residual pressure in the rear drum brakes so the wheel cylinder rubber cups keep a seal. also ensure the rear lines are connected to the correct port on the master cylinder. on some aftermarket systems an inline residual valve may also be used. if the master cylinder is frame mounted there my be a residual valve used for the front disc brakes as well. this is because a normal disc brake system usually had the master cylinder mounted on the firewall and there was some head pressure kept in the system due to the height difference of the two parts. with a low, frame mounted, master cylinder that head pressure is now gone so a residual valve is used to keep things working properly. if you have disc/drum brakes you will also need a proportioning valve for the system to function properly.
here is a little reading for you. spozed to snow this weekend up there anyway so it will keep you busy, haha.

https://info.mpbrakes.com/faqs

https://info.mpbrakes.com/faqs

[dsraven]

here is a bit more reading, in case it doesn't let up outside. lol.

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/eng...g-system-tips/

https://www.centuryperformance.com/c...em-basics.html

[NeoJuice]

Thanks for all the info DsRaven. I have some reading to do and I thank you. I have rear disc brakes and my e-brake and cabling works like a charm.

I do have my 2 lb residual check valves in the front and the back. I also have Wilwood Adjustable Proportioning valve installed.

I was thinking about it yesterday I think I might know what my issue with my brakes might be. Possible two issues.

1. When I assembled the master cylinder/Booster I didn't check the push rod adjustment on the booster (just found out this information on YouTube when doing some searches). Since the pedal is soft I can also feel a big gap between when I start to push the pedal and the actual contact with the master cylinder. So that will need to be checked.

2. Issue of possibly not having a disc/disc master cylinder instead of a disc/drum master cylinder.

Here nor there I'll get this motor stuff done first before straying to far off topic. I've got some reading to do now.