Going back to Points -- L6 292

['68OrangeSunshine]

I have an L6 292 in a '68 C/10 Stepside. [Original engine -- rebuilt in 2005]. About 35,000 miles since major overhaul.
It's had a PerTronix Ignitor II/ Flamethrower II electronic ignition conversion in the point-triggered Delco-Remy housing since about 2008. Last year, I started getting a blackout gripe. Ignition would shut down at speeds +65 MPH [2800-3000 RPM]. Unless I put the clutch in instantly the crankcase would cold-mill at high RPM. If I slowed down to 55 MPH, and turned the key off-then-on, then it would pop start in 4th.
Lately the gripe got worse -- so that just pulling an empty trailer up a slight hill at 45 MPH, it would black out.
Also it overheated. Since then the water pump, radiator hoses, heater hoses, thermostat and coolant have been replaced. Running in place, it's still running hot, and won't hold an idle. Seems to idle at 450-500 RPM, but dies. If I massage the gas pedal, it will stay running at about 1400 -2000 RPM. With many random backfires.

Carb needs rebuild. Edelbrock 1404 500 CFM. It's on my list.

Distributor has a weird wobble. Thinking the reluctor was winding up and away from the pickup module on high RPMs, we attempted to cure that with a shim between the housing and gear. Now I find in Leo Santuccis book that "Shims ... are not critical because this is a down-thrust distributor."

So while I disassemble [read dissect] the Accel blueprinted Delco-Remy distributor with the PerTronix goodies, I'm going to put in a breaker-point stock set-up in a cleaned-up stock distributor with virgin breaker plate and new points and condenser, and see what kind of base-line I come up with.

The PerTronix Tech rep says the Flamethrower II coil will be incompatible with the stock points. I have a bunch of old coils on my shelf in the shed.
What proceedure should I use to test them?

The Tech Rep also said a high EMI would cause the module to shut down, but the only electronics on this truck was the PerTronix. Not even a radio.

I did find a short [gnawed-off insulation -- shorting to the bellhousing] in the wire I ran from the IGN/Unfused terminal to the Flamethrower II coil (+) terminal, I had spliced in a yellow 20 line to the starter terminal to duplicate the OEM configuration. I'm not sure this was necessary. Ran fine for 7 years.
[The old 20 Orange/White/Purple resistance wire and Yellow 20 to the coil I taped off.]

I have a NIB L6 HEI, but I want to find out what species of gremlin has climbed on my truck, before I throw on new parts. Also I want to keep the PerTronix if it's still good for a later project involving another 292.

[vince1]

I think I have the same Delco distributor in a Rambler 232. I had not much luck with the Petronix II and went back to points. I might some day try that Petronix in my 66 C10 to see how it works.

In my spare coil selection I measure 2 ohms or 4 ohms across the terminals. I don't think my Rambler has a resistor in the ignition circuit so I use the 4 ohm coil. Petronix coil only measures 1 ohm IIRC. Do I have any clue what I am doing? Probably not but the car has been running good with the points and 4 ohm coil.

['68OrangeSunshine]

The stock '68 Chevy has a resistor wire feeding the coil Pos. (+) terminal. It's the 20 Or/Wht/Ppl from the bulkhead connector.
I used to have a big square Mallory "Racing Coil" bolted to the side of the block. [Bought it in 1977 for $25 retail at a Hi Perf store in Yuma.] The directions stated not to use it without their Mallory ceramic resistor. So I did for years, until my machinist, who's into racing, saw it and said " Why upgrade the coil if you're only going to step it down again?... You have a stock resistor wire, just use that." So I deleted the ceramic and it worked fine.
I found that square Mallory, plus a chrome Mallory [conventional cylindrical] coil I got for my 350 V8 in the '71 GMC when I ran points in that. Also found a NIB Mallory HEI coil-in-cap in that weird shape that wouldn't fit on top of an HEI in a K/1500 because of no firewall clearance. But I couldn't find the OEM AC-Delco coil or even a Lucas coil that was on my Dad's '58 Jaguar-- I thought I'd check out for kicks.
I remember Accel used to print AMC numbers as well as GM applications on some replacement parts. Are they exactly the same? Did that include Jeeps before Chrysler bought them out? I think Internationals used that same Delco-Remy Dizzy.
I was gonna ring out what coils I had today but I got rained out. That's OK, if it's El Nin~o or just a long monsoon, it's better that a drought.

[_Ogre]

It's had a PerTronix Ignitor II/ Flamethrower II electronic ignition conversion in the point-triggered Delco-Remy housing since about 2008.

imagine how many times in that 7 years you'd have to mess with points or set timing or dwell
while my son is still running the same pertronix since 2000, i say 7 years is good service out your flamethower

personally i'd buy another pertronix or stick a later model hei distributor in your 292

['68OrangeSunshine]

Ogre, You think the Pertronix coil is burned out? It starts and runs. Like I said in my first post I have a new HEI standing by, I just want to find what the fault in the system is before I put in new stuff.

[_Ogre]

no idea if the coil is going bad. can't they be tested? ask pertronix how to test the coil.
my son runs the original pertronix in his elco, it uses the oem coil
i'd rather slit my throat than go back to points

pertronix site doesn't indicate the need for the flamethrower coil except for high rpm performance
if you have a good stock coil throw it in for a test
http://www.pertronix.com/prod/ig/ignitor2/default.aspx

a new coil from napa is only $25 Ignition-Coil

[VetteVet]

I think I'd fix the carburetor problem first., you'll have to

Your mechanic is telling you if you go back to points you'll need to run a resistor to keep from burning up the points. At least he should be. The problem with that is the igniter II coil is designed to run on a full 12 volts, so if you go to points you'll need
a ballast resistor and a resistance, stock type coil. You can sub in a stock coil for a short time without the resistor but it won't last more than an hour cause they get hot and crack, usually around the coil wire neck.

['68OrangeSunshine]

Originally Posted by VetteVet

I think I'd fix the carburetor problem first., you'll have to

Your mechanic is telling you if you go back to points you'll need to run a resistor to keep from burning up the points. At least he should be. The problem with that is the igniter II coil is designed to run on a full 12 volts, so if you go to points you'll need
a ballast resistor and a resistance, stock type coil. You can sub in a stock coil for a short time without the resistor but it won't last more than an hour cause they get hot and crack, usually around the coil wire neck.

No the machinist was telling me the resistor was unnecessary because I was running the stock 20 Wht/Or/Ppl resistance line. This was with a big square Mallory p/n 28675 "Voltmaster" coil. Ran fine for a long time w/o the ceramic resistor. I only switched it out when I made the Pertronix conversion.

Another question: I had spliced a 20 Yellow [to Starter 'S' term.] into my 12 gauge feed from the IGN/Unfused fuse block terminal to the coil (+) positive terminal. This was copying the stock coil feed. Is this necessary? Could it be part of the problem? There were no starter related issues while it was wired like this.

I tested all the coils I had in my shop. Resistance across POS (+) to Neg (-), expressed as "A". Then Tower connector to Pos and to Neg @ 20K range. Expressed as "B'' and "C".

1] Delco-Remy "208" [black] A = 5.5 ohm @ 200 Ohms, B = 9.34, C = 9.35. [20k range].
2] Delco-Remy "208" [rusty] A =2.0, B=6.27, C =6.27.
3] Mallory p/n 29217. [chrome] A =1.5, B = 10.56, C=10.55.
4] Mallory p/n 28675. [square]. A = 1.1, B=16.75, C = 17.5.
5] Pertronix [Flamethrower II]. A = 1.0, B = 10.77, C = 10.77.

I liked # 3 the best. I'll hunt around for the ceramic resistor.


I also had an old Lucas HA12 coil off my Dad's old '58 Jag. I couldn't tell which was positive, the terminals were marked SW and CB. Switch and Car Body, perhaps? That car had a "Positive Earth" so I'm not messing with it. but the values were:
A = 3.7, B =7.14, C=7.14.

And I put the point-trigger distributor back together.

['68OrangeSunshine]

Here are pix of the rebuilding of the distributor:
1] Re-assembled with new breaker plate and points + condenser.
2] New Vac can.
3] Disassembled for cleaning. Springs are different. One Medium, one Hard. Old roll pin broke in two, sideways, on extraction. New roll pin tightens up the whole assembly.
4] Shaft inverted. Note bottom of counterweight plate has brazing. This must be the distributor I had recalibrated in the '80s. They balanced the plate.

['68OrangeSunshine]

Some progress.

Captions:
1] Plugs were gapped at .045. Show heavy carbon.
2] Plugs cleaned, filed and regapped at .035.
3] Pertronics module out. Gear drive roll pin was sticking out .015. Could be why it wobbled.
4] Pertronix module before pulling. Gap was correct at .030.

['68OrangeSunshine]

Went completely non-electronic today.
Total old school.
Delco-Remy breaker-point distributor, N-I-B Cap, rotor, points, condensor, new stock vac can... Coil is a Mallory 29217 w/ Mallory p/n 700 ballast resistor, even though I'm using stock OEM resistor wire.
Set timing at 8* BTDC, points at .019, then checked dwell. Meter made me close points gap to .010, yielding 31* dwell, which is nominal.
Took the Stepside out for a parts run to get a paper air cleaner, as the K&N unit always fails smog inspection. After blowing out some cobwebs, it ran good.

Happy to have left the little green gremlins that feed on high-order electronics in the dust.

[cg285]

Originally Posted by _Ogre

imagine how many times in that 7 years you'd have to mess with points or set timing or dwell

not so. i finished my 66 6 years ago. haven't touched anything since. back in the day, for ourselves or customers that would pay for the extra effort, we would match condensers to the points. once matched they were good for 50k +
of course these were oem quality parts

also i have never seen a resistor wire fail under normal circumstances. resistors - yes, lots

and .010 gap should not read a 31 degree dwell but if your dwell meter is accurate that is all that counts

['68OrangeSunshine]

Originally Posted by cg285

and .010 gap should not read a 31 degree dwell but if your dwell meter is accurate that is all that counts

Well I set them at .019 and got 21*, so I reset a little closer and got 27*, resetting again even closer, I came up to 31*. When I measured the gap it looked like .010.
Is there a way to test a dwell meter? It's a Sears Roebuck Dwell-Tach-Voltmeter, I've had a while.
Points and condensor -- whole breaker plate actually -- is old USA-made Accel.

[cg285]

don't know how to test one except to compare to two others. make sure your scale is right (6 cyl). or maybe you are not getting an accurate physical measurement?
the specified gap will equal the specified dwell so one of the two is wrong

[vince1]

So not enough dwell, not a hot enough spark?

I've never used a dwell meter and just go for .016".

I tuned up a guys car many years ago because he could hardly get it going. It had been such a long time since a tune up that the points were no longer opening due to the phenolic rider being worn off.

['68OrangeSunshine]

Originally Posted by cg285

don't know how to test one except to compare to two others. make sure your scale is right (6 cyl). or maybe you are not getting an accurate physical measurement?
the specified gap will equal the specified dwell so one of the two is wrong

My buddy had a bigger Sears Dwell/Tach/Voltmeter. I read about 32* on his. Close enough, we called it, and rebuilt the carb.

Now it's running good on points.
The tech rep at Pertronix wants me to send back my Ignitor II module for testing. He says they shouldn't burn out before 10 - 15 years.

[cg285]

32 would be spot on for a 6 cyl. again, did you have your dwell meter on the 6 cyl scale?

['68OrangeSunshine]

Originally Posted by cg285

32 would be spot on for a 6 cyl. again, did you have your dwell meter on the 6 cyl scale?

Yup.

['68OrangeSunshine]

Passed ADEQ emissions today with no adjustments.

[RichardJ]

When setting the point gap, depending on your vision, it is important to carefully observe that the points DO NOT move when you insert or remove the feeler gauge. If the points move, you do not have .019" gap. An .018" feeler should drop through without resistance. Separate the feelers from the pack for best results.
I see more and more people having trouble getting the correct dwell reading after setting gap, because they forget the spring on the point arm has only about 12 oz. of tension.

Do you still have the wobble that you mentioned earlier?
If you shim up the gap above the gear too much, the distributor shaft will be pushing down on the oil pump gear. Not good. The distributor can wobble and may even leak oil around the distributor base gasket. A little work at this point, but if you pull the dist , remove the gasket and reinstall the dist, the dist should sit solidly on the block without any gap. If it is sitting above the block, readjust the shims and the gasket will provide enough clearance.

Now that you have the points installed, that yellow wire connected to the "R" terminal on the solenoid will help the engine start when cold. With the pertronix or HEI, I would remove the yellow wire, because the solenoid can be a potential source of a voltage spike. Pertronix and HEI modules do no like voltage spikes.

['68OrangeSunshine]

Hi Richard,
I set the point gap at .019, then worked on the dwell and it got much closer.
The wobble was caused by the roll pin sticking out from one side by almost 3/64ths. When another distributor with a fresh roll pin was installed, there was no further wobble. According to Santucci, the gear/body spacing is not critical on the L6 distributor as it's a down-thrust type.
I had read in one of Vettevet's posts about the external voltage regulators spiking and causing problems with electronic ignitions.
There was a Yellow 20 leg to the Starter "R" terminal on my 12 volt wire to the Flamethrower II coil, mimicking the original set up. Not only that but packrats had exposed some of its insulation.
Currently the engine is back on the OEM wiring, which I had taped back not deleted, and the original 20 Yellow is attached correctly.
I sent the Ignitor II module off to Pertronix for evaluation.

But I'm running real good "organically."