47-59 The case for Three point seat belts.

[iceman4]

So, over the last 7 years of driving in fair weather and making improvements in the winter months I just installed the 3 point seatbelts from Julianos. I researched the options, read the threads on this forum. It was always on the to do list but never made it to the top. I went back and forth between going with just lap belts, or 3 point. Made decision to go with the 3 point belts after watching this video. The violence of a crash in an older vehicle is shown from different angles and slow motion.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oO226PgSkg

[geezer#99]

What do you use for the top pillar attachment point for your 3 point system?
Just curious!

[mr48chev]

Originally Posted by geezer#99

What do you use for the top pillar attachment point for your 3 point system?
Just curious!

Usually you weld in a made for the task plate when you build the truck.

They have to be at the right height and position in relation to the seat though.

I walked away from two helicopter crashes in Vietnam because I had the shoulder harnesses on. Walked away from being hit in the rear by a garbage truck and shoved into a Johnson barrer in my Geo Prism GSI because of the shoulder belt that left a nice welt on my shoulder. I'd have really been bunged up in that one as the first impact broke my seat back and threw me back and the second threw me forward and I was caught by the shoulder belt.

[Dan in Pasadena]

"The case for three point seat belts" - For me it came down to keeping my face from meeting the hardass steering wheel, metal dash & knobs.

By being old car hobbyists the risk we all run is we ARE going to be more seriously injured/killed in anything more than a modest accident. These vehicle were never engineered with anything remotely like the crash survivability of modern cars.

Remember the cabs are nothing more than folded sheet metal. There's nothing like a structure in them.

1. We carefully cut open the B pillar.

2. Welded an 1/8" plate and nut welded on the cut out.

3. Replaced and metal finished that into the cab.

(Sorry the site rotated the pictures)

[geezer#99]

That mod was beyond my capabilities 30 years ago when I built a 56.
A lap belt was better than nothing though.
A lot of people never used a lap belt either.
Thanx for the pics!

[iceman4]

Attachment 2237658[

Originally Posted by geezer#99

What do you use for the top pillar attachment point for your 3 point system?
Just curious!

The kit from Julianos came with a substantial backing plate aprox. 3" x !.5".
You drill the hole where you want to mount the upper belt attachment , and fish the backing plate in place. Nice compromise, decent strength without messing up a finished cab. Works well in a small window cab. Big window cabs, as Dan pointed out, are more challenging. There are several videos on the subject, Brothers has a good one.

[vintovka]

If you need outside grab handles problem solved.

[unclebrad]

For those of you with BBW cabs, see post #25 in this thread.
https://www.67-72chevytrucks.com/vbo...d.php?t=799565

I wrote a little article talking about installing 3-pt belts in a SBW vs BBW. Might be helpful to someone...

The julianos webpage (https://www.julianos.com/Articles.asp?ID=278) has very good basic instructions for installing three-point seatbelts in a Small Back Window Truck. It appears that it is possible to run a backing plate up into the B-Pillar from below. (see steps 5-6 on instruction sheet) And it looks like you can use it for most of your BBW truck installation but, if you do have a Big Back Window truck, read on.

From what I have seen, it appears that the B-Pillar on the Big Back Window trucks, is different from that of the Small Back Window trucks and the julianos instructions don't account for that.

The backing plate needs to be in a different location on the Big Back Window models.
The same place that "Dan-In-Pasadena", above, has used.

My truck is already painted, and I do not want to mess up the paint by opening up the B-Pillar.

Here is my thinking about the problem and the solution:

First, on the Small Back Window cabs, the B-Pillar has hidden, overlapping sheet metal layer inside it, which is flat, allowing for easy drilling and easy placement of backing plate. See Illustration “A” below.

Illustration A
https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/...1&d=1670722344


But the Big Back Window truck cab has an important difference. The B-Pillar for the upper anchor can’t be drilled in the recommended location, and if you could, the plate still wouldn’t work there. The hidden sheet metal layer there, is bent, which prevents drilling and placement of backing plate. See Illustration “B” below.

Illustration B
https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/...1&d=1670722344


Screenshot from the online installation video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKmY8leGOaA
Here, the hole has been drilled on the side of the B-Pillar where I am proposing it should be. You can see the sheet metal behing the hole, which prevents loaction on the side recommended by julianos.
https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/...1&d=1670722344


I have seen online, where a couple people have cut out access plates and welded them back in place after making the needed changes inside of the pillars, but it requires cutting, welding, body work, and repainting. As I said before, I don’t want to do that.

On BBW trucks the plate should be placed “around the corner” from the location recommended by julianos,as in Illustration C. Again, here is a forum thread where the poster fished the plate to the proper location.
https://www.67-72chevytrucks.com/vbo...d.php?t=799565 (see post #25 for backing plate solution)

Illustration C
https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/...1&d=1670722344


Although the belt bracket could be mounted in that location, I am thinking an additional plate might be needed/wanted as in the photoshopped images below. This might just be a preference thing. My original thinking was that it would make the “pull” angle better, and that it was better visually.
https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/...1&d=1670722344

Some reading/viewing:
https://www.julianos.com/Articles.asp?ID=278
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKmY8leGOaA
https://www.67-72chevytrucks.com/vbo...d.php?t=799565 (see post #25 for backing plate solution)

[Dan in Pasadena]

Oh, I forgot to add an "FYI" for anyone coming along in the future looking for info.

Mine is centered in the B pillar - which seemed right - but is wrong! Mounting it that way doesn't allow the strap holder thing - whatever they're called, to hang horizontal. That results in the shoulder strap tending to hang up rather than pull out of the retractor as easily as it should. I've gotten used to it (because it's not a daily driver) but it does BUG me.

If you mount the nut off center toward the door opening to address this, you'll need to make the backing bar wider by welding a 1/2" wide L to it to compensate the loss of strength.

[_Ogre]

Personally I believe a shoulder belt in any vehicle not designed for it, is only to appease the wife that your truck is "safe". There is zero structural strength in a TF big back window truck. No crumple zones, no reinforcement in seat attachment areas. You are only fooling yourself that you will survive a crash any better than your 60s counterpart. You'll survive better in a low speed crash, but in any other crash the cab distorts, doors open and the A and B pillars do what ever they want to.

[dsraven]

iceman, thank you so much for posting that video. it makes us at least think about the consequences of improper restraints but also, just as important, it makes us possibly think about "teching' our vehicles more often. in the video the throttle cable on a huge HP engine was sticking, consequently the brakes got used to the point of stinking just driving at relatively slow speeds and for a short time. maybe the brake fade that goes with the super hot brakes made the driver have to use more force to stop, which stressed all those old parts until something failed, who knows. I dunno if anybody else noticed but all the time, money and effort spent didn't afford a brake upgrade to match the engine output. finally, no park/emergency brake. it was a bunch of stuff that, looking back, they probably won't do again. I always advise guys to make it stop before you make it go. match the brakes to the engine power. its so unfortunate those guys got hurt and the car was wrecked, good to hear they are recovering well. hopefully the people in the vehicle they hit also recovered well.
I have a big back window task force truck. I installed seats with integral seat belts. I thought about a cage to attach the belts to otherwise. I know, old vehicles don't have crumple zones or padded dashes or air bags but we gotta do what we can to be safe. also, think about the other drivers on the road, families, kids, bikers etc.

[Dan in Pasadena]

Originally Posted by _Ogre

Personally I believe a shoulder belt in any vehicle not designed for it, is only to appease the wife that your truck is "safe". There is zero structural strength in a TF big back window truck. No crumple zones, no reinforcement in seat attachment areas. You are only fooling yourself that you will survive a crash any better than your 60s counterpart. You'll survive better in a low speed crash, but in any other crash the cab distorts, doors open and the A and B pillars do what ever they want to.

Agreed and as I posted it's not going to help in anything other than a moderate accident.

[vintovka]

Originally Posted by _Ogre

Personally I believe a shoulder belt in any vehicle not designed for it, is only to appease the wife that your truck is "safe". There is zero structural strength in a TF big back window truck. No crumple zones, no reinforcement in seat attachment areas. You are only fooling yourself that you will survive a crash any better than your 60s counterpart. You'll survive better in a low speed crash, but in any other crash the cab distorts, doors open and the A and B pillars do what ever they want to.

This is very true especially with original chassis.

[leegreen]

The thing about safety is you can never tell if you have enough, but sometimes find out you did not have enough. Like the guys in the video, they have a whole shopping list of things that could have been done better.

Even a weak shoulder harness will do more that you can to keep your face off the dash. Doubt any of us could bench press even a couple sheet metal screws out.

[dsraven]

leegreen, I like that analogy with the sheet metal srews. I might have to try that, with number 6 screws.....in 22ga....possibly overtightened with a cordless driver.....haha

[leegreen]

for a fair test those screws need to be in shear

[dsraven]

sorry, don't own a shear. I have some snips but they wont cut screws......haha, I get it.

[vintovka]

Have often thought that maybe an airbag or two might be a thought. This especially on restomods like mine with better chassis and newer steering columns. The projection of the fatter wheel assembly might be an issue and certainly original cab crush resistance may be a factor.

After watching endless dash cam crash videos i have come to conclusion folks are driving worse as they think the modern safety devices will save them under any circumstance.

[_Ogre]

Originally Posted by dsraven

in the video the throttle cable on a huge HP engine was sticking.

I'll admit that I didn't watch the whole video, but if the throttle stuck, the simple solution was to turn off the key. When my daughter was learning to drive, she had the throttle stick wide open when a walnut rolled under the throttle cam. Luckily I was with her, she started pumping the brakes and looked at with big eyes. I calmly reached over and turned off the ignition. Crisis averted.

[dsraven]

good point ogre. the whole thing could have been averted had the show host simply said he woud come back and roll film when the car was safetied and ready to go, like when the idle woudn't come down the first ime pull over, check for a problem you can fix on the side of the road, if not then decide if you will drive slowly back to the shop, shuttling between drive and neutral, or get it towed back. they learned the hard way and others paid dearly as well.

[leegreen]

I watched that video a couple months back, there is a point before the crash where the driver tells the passenger he is having to hold it back with the brakes and they appear to be doing a good 60-70 kmh. At that point you'd think a guy that built a car like that and an automotive journalist would have drawn some conclusions about what was in store if they kept driving.

I'm sure the pressure of organizing the photo shoot was pushing other thoughts aside, same sort of stressors that lead to pilots and boaters heading out in marginal weather to meet commitments that in hindsight were not worth dying over.

[Black93GT]

That video kills me… he knew was having issues and chose to ignore the problems. When the video came out, my immediate assumption was he intentionally did so in order to not miss his 15mins of fame.

Not to take away from the potential safety improvements available since these trucks were built but…. we as builders/mechanics/caretakers of classic vehicles have to personally ensure we have covered the basics. There are no computers to tell us something is wrong.