1986 C10 shorty drop questions..a little help please.

[72freak]

This Rottenwood garages new shop truck project. I have combed the site and internet and have decided to go with a 3-5 drop. Dropping a square body will be a new adventure for me as I have only done pre 73's. I have grown weary from looking at all the different kits and methods offered to do this drop. This truck will probably be a "flip" so I want to keep it on a budget but I don't want to cut corners either. I am thinking a rear axle flip and drop spindles in front.

What should I buy or do? Best kit for the money? Help please.

[SCOTI]

Bell Tech or Western Chassis for quality drop parts (quality/name-dropping helps in a flip scenario). Spindles & flip kit sounds about right. Easy enough to do & still be easily reversable should future owners want that route

[Malibuick231]

I just done my sons 86 with a Belltech kit. Everything fit great with good directions. I have noticed from other post if you plan on running a 15x8 wheel they seem to rub the lower control arm. Maybe others could chime in on that as this is my first square body.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by Malibuick231

I just done my sons 86 with a Belltech kit. Everything fit great with good directions. I have noticed from other post if you plan on running a 15x8 wheel they seem to rub the lower control arm. Maybe others could chime in on that as this is my first square body.

Any wheel w/more than 4" of BS will likely rub. The required fix is trimming some lip off the a-arm, different BS, or narrower wheel w/diff BS.

It is also more common to have interference issues when running 3" drop spindles vs 2.5" units.

[JWall]

My trucks dropped using all Western Chassis stuff & I am very pleased.
It's been lowered on the same parts for 10 years plus.

[72freak]

Originally Posted by JWall

My trucks dropped using all Western Chassis stuff & I am very pleased.
It's been lowered on the same parts for 10 years plus.

What drop is it?

[JWall]

Originally Posted by 72freak

What drop is it?

Bought as a 5/7 kit from Western Chassis.

I'm maybe about 2 1/2 away from the front inner fender wells in the front.

[1977cheyenne_C10]

Originally Posted by 72freak

This Rottenwood garages new shop truck project. I have combed the site and internet and have decided to go with a 3-5 drop. Dropping a square body will be a new adventure for me as I have only done pre 73's. I have grown weary from looking at all the different kits and methods offered to do this drop. This truck will probably be a "flip" so I want to keep it on a budget but I don't want to cut corners either. I am thinking a rear axle flip and drop spindles in front.

What should I buy or do? Best kit for the money? Help please.

thats a nice truck you got there a 4/6 drop would look real nice

[72freak]

After several weeks of research I finally did it. Once I mount up the new tires and wheels I will revisit the front stance a little with probably a 1" drop spring.

I decided to by-pass the drop spindle idea and spent $80 more and got the lower 3" drop tubular control arm that comes with ball joint and all new bushings in place. It saves lots of install time, there is no chance of any wheels rubbing and its actually cheaper in the long run if you have to end up changing out the ball joints like I normally do. In addition, it looks cool! I'm surprised no one recommended it!?!

We then did a 5" rear axle flip. NO C-notch was/is necessary but you do have to cut off the bump stop and bracket and replace it with one provided.. We did not need shorter shocks for the front but had to get them for the rear. That saved an additional $70 - $100 dollars.

From the before and after measurements we got 5" exactly in the rear and 2 3/4" in the front.

All products were DJM and were purchased through Summit and at my front door in 14 hours. There were 4 or 5 of us hanging at Rottenwood Garage that morning and start to finish was 3 hours.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by 72freak

After several weeks of research I finally did it. Once I mount up the new tires and wheels I will revisit the front stance a little with probably a 1" drop spring.

I decided to by-pass the drop spindle idea and spent $80 more and got the lower 3" drop tubular control arm that comes with ball joint and all new bushings in place. It saves lots of install time, there is no chance of any wheels rubbing and its actually cheaper in the long run if you have to end up changing out the ball joints like I normally do. In addition, it looks cool! I'm surprised no one recommended it!?!

We then did a 5" rear axle flip. NO C-notch was/is necessary but you do have to cut off the bump stop and bracket and replace it with one provided.. We did not need shorter shocks for the front but had to get them for the rear. That saved an additional $70 - $100 dollars.

From the before and after measurements we got 5" exactly in the rear and 2 3/4" in the front.

All products were DJM and were purchased through Summit and at my front door in 14 hours. There were 4 or 5 of us hanging at Rottenwood Garage that morning and start to finish was 3 hours.

No one recommened the dropped pocket a-arms because the 'pocket' the spring sits in becomes the lowest portion of the scrub line that will now hit something. Not a good thing when that happens.

With stock arms, the a-arm pivot point is the lowest point & guys have problems there when they get too low w/the combination of parts.

[72freak]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

No one recommened the dropped pocket a-arms because the 'pocket' the spring sits in becomes the lowest portion of the scrub line that will now hit something. Not a good thing when that happens.

With stock arms, the a-arm pivot point is the lowest point & guys have problems there when they get too low w/the combination of parts.

Thanks for the input. The more input the better for the next guy!!
That was one of the questions the DJM guy asked was about tire and rim size. He did say that if you were running very thin tires and small wheels (cholo style low-rider) it may not be the way to go. That is not the case in my application as I am sticking with 15"- 17" rims and bigger tires. We did measure before and after and the bottom of the pocket is about 2" difference to the originals due to the difference in shape of the control arm. For all those considering this, I am running 275-60-15 tires on 15" rims and I have 7" of clearance under drop pockets. Currently the lowest part of my "scrub line" actually the exhaust and there are a few other places under there that are within 1" of that to the ground. I have several hotrods with parts hanging lower than 7" (oil pans being one of them). So yes, I agree with certain" lowering" applications this may not be the route to go but so far I don't see any issue with it.

I will be the first to report when I do grab the pocket on something but I have a feeling if I hit something with the pocket @ 7" off the ground, I will tear something farther back off too.

[SHILOW]

I recommend getting shock extenders for the rear drop. It is a cheap and easy mod that will align the shocks more vertical.

[SkinnyG]

Dropped arms do nothing to correct the front suspension geometry (lowered roll center and increased wheel scrub), but they do get you low.

Dropped spindles ~theoretically~ correct (or at least minimize) the changes, but I have not specifically measured a set to prove either way.

I've driven vehicles lowered (equally) with spindles and without, and spindles tend to "feel" better, but hard to put a finger on ~what~ exactly makes them feel better.

Enjoy the ride, and let us know what you find.

[72freak]

Originally Posted by SHILOW

I recommend getting shock extenders for the rear drop. It is a cheap and easy mod that will align the shocks more vertical.

The rear axle swap kit comes with the shock extenders and have been installed. I decided to drop the front a little more and ordered some springs. I will post a picture when it is complete.

For those interested in the "scrub line", the bottom of the shock relocation brackets is the lowest part of the truck now.

[72freak]

[QUOTE=SkinnyG;6901744]Dropped arms do nothing to correct the front suspension geometry QUOTE]

That's an interesting point and I admit I know little about the geometry requirements of the suspension of a C10. My goal was not to "correct the suspension geometry" but to lower the vehicle and then take it to an alignment shop to correct what had been changed. Once its back in alignment wont the geometry be correct or does altering the position of the upper control arm to match the new lower one now "change the geometry to a point that it cant be aligned and change the geometry to a point that it rides differently. That just seems far fetched to me.

[J Knight]

[quote=72freak;6903128]

Originally Posted by SkinnyG

Dropped arms do nothing to correct the front suspension geometry QUOTE]

That's an interesting point and I admit I know little about the geometry requirements of the suspension of a C10. My goal was not to "correct the suspension geometry" but to lower the vehicle and then take it to an alignment shop to correct what had been changed. Once its back in alignment wont the geometry be correct or does altering the position of the upper control arm to match the new lower one now "change the geometry to a point that it cant be aligned and change the geometry to a point that it rides differently. That just seems far fetched to me.

I tjink the geometry he is referring to is the Ackerman angle. (Google Ackerman angle) fwiw I had some drop control arms on a 95 chevy and I lost a lot of turning radius. It felt like I needed 40 acres to turn my truck around.

[72freak]

[quote=J Knight;6903166]

Originally Posted by 72freak

I tjink the geometry he is referring to is the Ackerman angle. (Google Ackerman angle) fwiw I had some drop control arms on a 95 chevy and I lost a lot of turning radius. It felt like I needed 40 acres to turn my truck around.

Thanks, I have driven the truck, pre-alignment and have lost (0) turning radius thus far. I should have it all buttoned up and aligned tomorrow and I will have a full report.

I just read about the Ackerman Angle and I don't see a correlation between what it describes and lower control arms with deeper spring pockets. Technically nothing has changed. This certainly isn't it.

I currently own trucks with 3" drop springs in front, another with 2.5 drop spindles with 1" springs (wheels scrub) and now this one 3" drop control arms with 2" drop springs. I will report my findings once this one is finished.

[SkinnyG]

The Geometry I'm talking about is camber curve and roll center location, both of which are affected by dropped arms. Front roll center goes ~very~ low when dropping with arms (or even just massive drop springs). On bumps or body roll, the tire may camber in a whole lot more than before (though the factory geometry looks pretty bad to begin with - dropped arms might be an improvement in camber control). As the lower arms angle more and more away from horizontal, the tire will be dragged sideways in bumps, which will scrub your tires off faster.

Spindles try to do their best to minimize the roll center and camber curve change. Roll center will be affected slightly because the tire is now in a different location (this raises the front roll center closer to the center of gravity).

Some manufacturers relocate the steering arm on drop spindles to better clear the now relocated wheel - this will change Ackerman, usually for the worse. Ackerman angle helps your vehicle turn corners by turning the inside wheel ~more~ than the outside wheel.

Camber, Caster, and Toe, can all be reasonably corrected at the alignment shop, regardless of which way you go. But the location and angle of the control arm plays a much bigger role in how the vehicle handles.

Will it work? Heck yeah. Is one better than the other? Probably. Does it really matter on a truck that I'm not taking to the track? Heck no.

[72freak]

Ok folks. Thanks for all the input. Its done and we have some miles on it. Rides great with no issues. My first gripe was a lot of these companies sell these kits as a 3-5. On this square body a 3-5 did not work as the front ends up a little higher than the rear. I had to go with an additional 2" drop springs. My second complaint was product related. I did the 3-5 DJM lower control arm drop with rear axle flip and the truck needing lowering in the front but side to side sat perfect!!! Once I ordered the DJM 2" drop springs from Summit and installed them the truck was 1.25 inches higher on the passenger side front. We checked spring placement and all was good. I did not want to be down in order to return the springs so we shaved a little off the left to even it up. I truly believe the springs sent to me were miss matched. Now that its done the rake is perfect and side to side its perfect.

No turning radius loss at all.
No rim scrub and PLENTY of room for wider or more offset.
Rear shock re-locators are the lowest part of the scrub line once the spare was removed and exhaust was changed.
As far as the geometry change goes, when I swap the truck from a low cruiser into a SCCA race truck I will work on correcting that then.

[RDrancher]

I was thinking about going with the same control arm drop with a cut coil on my Suburban. It has 7" aluminum wheels on it right now that I'd like to keep and I'm worried that I'd have to go with steelies with a spindle drop.

Any wheelwell interference with the tires you're running? Any chance you could you take a pic of the ball joint clearance?

[72freak]

Originally Posted by RDrancher

I was thinking about going with the same control arm drop with a cut coil on my Suburban. It has 7" aluminum wheels on it right now that I'd like to keep and I'm worried that I'd have to go with steelies with a spindle drop.

Any wheelwell interference with the tires you're running? Any chance you could you take a pic of the ball joint clearance?

I think its a wheel offset issue more than anything. From what Im told if your wheels are less than 3.5 there are no issues with drop spindles however we did put some 2.5 spindles on a 69 a few months ago with 3.5 offset wheels and it scrubs the wheel weight off just barely.. Here is one I had I will shoot a few others later today.

[RDrancher]

Thanks for the update. Your truck has the perfect stance in that last photo. Nice to see a truck without the big wheel look too!

[72freak]

Originally Posted by RDrancher

Thanks for the update. Your truck has the perfect stance in that last photo. Nice to see a truck without the big wheel look too!

Thanks. We think it looks good too. Call me old school but I still like the 15" look with fat meat and most of the trucks I do I go that route. I will say that if I had my druthers it would have some 17" wheels of Torq Thrust variety with black inserts but I had these in inventory and they looked fantastic so on they went.

[72freak]

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