Diesel Questions

[Stingray42]

I'm kinda thinkin about gettin a 94+ Chev/GMC Diesel.. and have a few questions! My main reason for it is better milage... The Blazer is killing me. The idea comes from my Dads GMC Topkick, as it gets incredible milage, but I just need a pickup! (Reg cab or ext cab shortbox) Preferably a halfton, 3/4 is ok.
What I need to know, is how much better milage do they get than gas? (I have a 350 that gets 14 MPG. I drive about 35 mins each way to school (I'm told they dont like short trips, is this long enough?) My Girlfriend lives 35 mins away. Work will likely involve being able to leave it running. I also can let it warm up in the morning no problem. (and can plug it in if needed too)

Hows starting cold in the middle of the day after it has been running?

Are there any years to avoid?

Just how much do they shake and rattle around at idle? My pops Topkick is pretty bad lol. I'm gonna jump in my buddies for a ride sometime soon.

Is there anything I need to watch for on a diesel? Is it really suited to my driving? I wont tow much of anything, I do a little bit of wheeling now and then, would probably put some bigger tires on it,

Thanks!!

[edman87]

I don't think it is for you. You don't tow,and the mileage is not great enough with the current high diesel price to justify the extra money you aree going to spend. The repairs for a diesel are very expensive, and you have no experience with them. The 6.5 gm diesel was not a good example of diesel engineering anyway.
These are my opinions, I am sure you will get more that disagree with mine.

[72freak]

Above information is dead on accurate in my opinion. I own diesels...lots of them and they do get a little bit better mileage. However the fuel coast is more, the repairs are more and unless you buy an older GM diesel (they give them away) the initial cost will be way more than a gas engine. As mentioned above there are plenty of people on this board who love those older GM diesels......but as it was so "CAREFULLY" put in the post above......the enginering and reliability on them is not the best. But this is just one mans opinion!!! Diesels are a working vehicle engine(hauling, towing, big truck).....if you want to scoot around town.....go with gas and if mileage is an issue...buy a 4cyl-5speed Honda/Toyota

If you want to learn diesels....go to the TDR web site. Turbo Diesel Registry

[neev_nav]

Yeah I was thinking about it after we left last night. The price of gas in town was 66.5 right? Well the price of diesel at 48 was 87.9. The better mileage would definately be offset by the price difference. I really think a Vortec is the best bet, or a car.

[chrisk1500]

Originally Posted by Stingray42

I'm kinda thinkin about gettin a 94+ Chev/GMC Diesel.. and have a few questions! My main reason for it is better milage... The Blazer is killing me. The idea comes from my Dads GMC Topkick, as it gets incredible milage, but I just need a pickup! (Reg cab or ext cab shortbox) Preferably a halfton, 3/4 is ok.
What I need to know, is how much better milage do they get than gas? (I have a 350 that gets 14 MPG. I drive about 35 mins each way to school (I'm told they dont like short trips, is this long enough?)

The truck in my sig routinely gets over 15 mpg city/highway mixed....

My Girlfriend lives 35 mins away. Work will likely involve being able to leave it running. I also can let it warm up in the morning no problem. (and can plug it in if needed too)

Hows starting cold in the middle of the day after it has been running?

Starting is fine if you have a good glow plug system......I live in Saskatchewan and don't have any problems with cold starting as long I plug it in when it gets colder than -20* celsius

Are there any years to avoid?

Not really....pre-94 will not have a PMD which is the piece of technology that most uneducated people claim to be a bad IP.....PMD is easily relocatd to provide years of worry free work....

Just how much do they shake and rattle around at idle? My pops Topkick is pretty bad lol. I'm gonna jump in my buddies for a ride sometime soon.

The 6.5 is IDI...that should answer your question

Is there anything I need to watch for on a diesel? Is it really suited to my driving? I wont tow much of anything, I do a little bit of wheeling now and then, would probably put some bigger tires on it,

Thanks!!

I HIGHLY recommend coming over to dieselplace.com and doing some reading in the 6.5 section.....there are a lot of us over there who know a thing or two about these engines and can help you get the best out of whatever you buy. Keep in mind the 6.5 will not run with the DMAX, PSTROKE, or CUMMINS but it can definately hold its own.....

Don't listen to others who slam the engine because they heard somewhere that the engines are junk.....

Some other sites you may want to visit include...

Peninsular Diesel
Kennedy Diesel
Heath Diesel
SS Diesel

[Stingray42]

sooo general opinion is not a good idea... well it was just a thought, and if they arent overwhelmingly better, I'll stick with a vortec and make it better.

Agreed neevnav, fuel price was good last night, and like everyone else said, I already know gas (always up for a challenge but gas is gonna be easier.)

I don't want a car, even tho it would get better milage, I would really rather have a truck (I stand 6'5, cars arent exactly comfortable for me) It might end up there, but I still have a few months to decide.

Thanks for the input, and any other opinions appriciated!

[chrisk1500]

I suggest reading over at dieselplace.com before making any big decision....quite a few guys from Ontario have some 6.5s....might want to have a look at some of them......I am sure that they would let you take them for a spin......better than a 5.7 TBI that's for sure....

[Stingray42]

I'm gonna do some more reading before making a desision... I've changed my mind about 3 million times so I'm sure i will again.... But if they are an improvement on mine thats good... now what about compared to a Vortec 5.7? I'd def love to actually drive one... My buddy has one but it has 430,000 kms on it so its a lil tired...

Now what about Bio Diesel? Is it cheap enough to make to run? I've only ever seen one show on it but I like the idea! Probably alot of equipment and processing tho?

Originally Posted by chrisk1500

I suggest reading over at dieselplace.com before making any big decision....quite a few guys from Ontario have some 6.5s....might want to have a look at some of them......I am sure that they would let you take them for a spin......better than a 5.7 TBI that's for sure....

[northerngmc]

Well.......

I have a 2004 with a duramax in it and I love it.

Is it cheaper to run, well that depends. My brother had a 2004 3/4 ton with the 6.0 gas engine and on a similiar trip I would get 21 mpg and he would get 14 mpg. This is highway driving, empty at 120 km/h. But the ititial cost is a killer. I believe the Duramax option was about $7000 and then another $3000 for the Allison automatic. I did some figuring when I bought the truck and it will take me 200,000 kms to recover the extra initial cost. Both are 4X4's.

Now towing is another thing. I pulled my 32 ft holiday trailer from Edmonton to Vancouver, through the mountains and still got 16 mpg. I drive about 100 km/h pulling my trailer.

Diesel prices seem to go up and down differently than gas, at least were I live. In the summer diesel is cheaper and in the winter it is more.

IMHO if you want a pickup for light hauling and gas mileage, at a reasonable price, go and buy an 2000-2002 Chevrolet 1/2 ton, 2WD with the 4.8 gas engine. I have a coworker with one and he get 25 - 27 mpg with it. For a bit more power, but still good fuel economy go with the 5.3 gas engine. Stay away from the 6.0 though as they are gas pigs.

I love my diesel, and I bought it for the pulling power and the added mileage is a real bonus.

dieselplace.com is a great webpage to discuss Chev diesels.

[1lowdiesel]

god please don't get a 6.5 they have the most problems. if you look at the post's on the dieselplace they are nothing but problems. i work at a fuel shop and we get them in all the time with pump and electric problems. if your lookin for better mileage and your not lookin into spending the money for a new truck i would go with a dodge. they get the best mileage.20+ in most cases. we have a twin turbo one here w/ about 600hp and he gets 23mpg.

[Stingray42]

No 6.5? I have heard some bad things... and would love a newer truck... haha

Is the Duramax over all a good engine?

no dodge tho... Not a fan of the body style. I do want to stay GM. I've worked on all the new stuff and know my way around it enough to fix it.
(I do like the 20+mpg with 600 hp lol )

I'm def buyin used... so a 7000 dollar option wont happen :P
I figure if I out some extra in the beginning and mpg will pay it back... thats ok.

"IMHO if you want a pickup for light hauling and gas mileage, at a reasonable price, go and buy an 2000-2002 Chevrolet 1/2 ton, 2WD with the 4.8 gas engine. I have a coworker with one and he get 25 - 27 mpg with it. For a bit more power, but still good fuel economy go with the 5.3 gas engine. Stay away from the 6.0 though as they are gas pigs. "

I like the new body style, but still want 4x4.... I do like those numbers tho :P
5.3 4x4 might work.... hmmm class time reply back soon!

[chrisk1500]

Originally Posted by 1lowdiesel

god please don't get a 6.5 they have the most problems. if you look at the post's on the dieselplace they are nothing but problems. i work at a fuel shop and we get them in all the time with pump and electric problems. if your lookin for better mileage and your not lookin into spending the money for a new truck i would go with a dodge. they get the best mileage.20+ in most cases. we have a twin turbo one here w/ about 600hp and he gets 23mpg.

The problem with what you said is that people tend to come to these forums when they have problems with their rig....seldom do people come in to say how great their stuff is running...

Please elaborate on the problems that the 6.5 has....I would like to read them.....

BUT - don't tell me they have PMD problems because that issue is easily fixed by a shadetree mechanic....don't tell me they have overheating problems because those were remedied by GM in 97 and the 97 upgrade can be installed on older 6.5s....Don't tell me they have block cracking problems because those issues are related to high ECTs from people pushing the engines too hard without having any common sense...

If you buy a 6.5 and upgrade it with what you see in my signature you will have a cheap and reliable diesel easily capable of pulling whatever you need to.....you may not beat a DMAX up a hill but you will make it there in one piece!

Like I said - do some reading over at the pro-diesel sites and combine that knowledge with what you read at the pro-gasser sites and come to a decision on your own.....I went from driving gasser 88-98 GM trucks (4.3, 305, 350 TBI) to driving what you see in my sig now and you could not pay me to back to a gasser.....

EDIT - the 6.5 is easily converted to run WVO (bio-diesel)....

[Stingray42]

chris- lovin the positive replies so far

have you got msn? I'd love to chat with you for a while if you had the time

Obviously I have to take heed the negative ones too, cuz they are where I might end up spending way too much money lol...

Your right on the Forums are where you hear the bad stories, same with the shop I used to work in.
From what I can see, they do get good milage, and run great, my one worry is if it breaks... putting a large amount out to fix it! I can work on em myself, and will learn, but parts can be pretty expensive too.
I'm looking into the biodiesel... My dad has a Cat Diesel so talking him into giving me some space in the shop to make the stuff might not be too hard...

What do yo uactually need to convert on a truck to run biodiesel? I was under the impression you can run either or no problems?

Thanks again

[chrisk1500]

I don't have MSN....sorry...

It is true that diesel parts are more expensive than gasser parts, but parts for the 6.5 are way cheaper than parts for the DMAX....for example - injectors for a DMAX are around the $3000 mark - for the 6.5 the injectors are around $300....huge difference....

Things you would need to do to get the most reliability out of your 6.5 are the following:

- exhaust ~$400
- PMD relocation ~$300 or less if you do it yourself
- Gauges (boost and EGT) $200ish

The rest of the performance mods are also relatively cheap:

- intercooler
- chip/ECM
- meth injection
- AMG block
- 18:1 pistons
- etc.

To run biodiesel you will need to get a tank with an in-tank heater....you can find out all kinds of information about the conversion at frybrids.com

[northerngmc]

One thing to also consider with a diesel is the higher maintance costs.

When I bought my Duramax I went over to the parts counter and bought 2 fuel filters and a case of 12 oil filters. $225, what a surprise. Yes this was at a GM dealer, but it was at trade price. Ever oil change is twice the cost.

The Dmax is a much quieter engine and does not give off the evil smells of the newer diesels.

I am not trying to scare you off of a diesel, but if it is simply to get better mpg, then I think you have to look at the offsetting costs to get that better mpg.

Take a look at this truck........

http://www.trader.ca/SendToFriend/Re...8&adid=5821259

[chrisk1500]

Not true to the 6.5.....filters are dirt cheap....

fuel filter ~$20
oil filter ~ $5
oil - right around 6 litres......

[1lowdiesel]

why would you need injectors for a newer duramax though? especially if they're under warranty. not to mention they are more because of the high pressure electronic fuel system thats in there. thats a really tough comparison.

also there are plenty of people on there praising their duramax's along with people hating them. also why are people "getting fed up" with all their 6.5 problems and swapping them out for cummins and duramax's. how are pistons and an intercooler cheap upgrades?

not trying to argue just tring to give a non 6.5 owner perspective.

[northerngmc]

For me it is the smell and noise that I believe has helped with the popularity of diesel trucks. Lack of smell and noise that is.

Listen to a 6.5 or a 2002 or older Cummins, then listen to a Dmax or 2003 and newer Cummins and hear the difference. Some guys with the older ones have to shut them off to order coffee at the Timmy's drive-thu!

If the lady in the front seat sitting beside you, either driving or riding, doesn't like the loud smelly truck, then you are sunk!

Buy a diesel, they are fun. Mine has 310 hp and 570 lb/ft from the factory, and I have added the Edge EZ (mainly for mpg, supposed to get 10% in setting #1) which adds up to 65 hp and 200 lb/ft of torque.

There is talk that in the next couple of years GM may put out a light duty truck, such as a heavy half, with a baby Dmax in it for people looking for mpg.

[1lowdiesel]

Originally Posted by northerngmc

There is talk that in the next couple of years GM may put out a light duty truck, such as a heavy half, with a baby Dmax in it for people looking for mpg.

yea so is ford and dodge.

[chrisk1500]

Not sure about the 'loud' comment....the 6.5 is IDI - quite quiet...

About the price of performance upgrades - I am comparing prices to other diesels - not gassers.....

He said he could not afford a 'new' diesel.....this means that if he bought the oldest DMAX he could (2001) the injectors will be off warranty 12 months from now.....lots of DMAX owners are having problems getting GM to warranty injectors right now....do some reading in the LB7 section of dieselplace.com to read about it!

People don't typically swap out a 6.5 because they are 'fed up with it'....if you ask the guys that are doing the swap (I can think of a handful that I know) they do it because they are not happy with the HP/TQ limitations of the engine....the 6.5 can safely make around 250 HP without self destructing....to build an engine like this would cost around $10000 or less - when you combine that with the fact that you can buy an older (94-96ish) 6.5TD 1/2 or 3/4 ton for around $5 - 7000 you can have a potent rig for around $15k (we are talking a hot rod 6.5 though)....

For the average guys who buys a $5000 6.5, he can do all of the reliability upgrades and have a very decent truck for less than $8000....and still run WVO....

[Stingray42]

Alright guys... Lovin all the comments!

Ok, so first I should mention, when I said I can't afford a new truck, I should have said I'm trying to shoot for under 10k. (Canadian, so say what like 8500 US) 11 doesnt bother me, but I am in school and cheaper is better lol... The 6.5 seems to have enough support and aftermarket, so we can safely aim our thread to pre-new bodystyle for the 6.5, but newer than 94. (well... 90, but I'm also trying for somewhat low milage too lol. I hope thats not to much to ask of the truck market.
Aaand... the cheaper parts are a big draw for me right now!

Quote
Things you would need to do to get the most reliability out of your 6.5 are the following:
- exhaust ~$400
- PMD relocation ~$300 or less if you do it yourself
- Gauges (boost and EGT) $200ish
The rest of the performance mods are also relatively cheap:
- intercooler
- chip/ECM
- meth injection
- AMG block
- 18:1 pistons
- etc.
To run biodiesel you will need to get a tank with an in-tank heater....you can find out all kinds of information about the conversion at frybrids.com
EndQuote

Looks good... but what is a PMD, and do the rest of the mods increase milage or power or both? (Cuz after all is said and done I still have to be able to beat neevnavs 350 off the line! ) Lol not really but I know power makes milage too.

Now the tank with heater... thats it for bio? no engine mods required?

northerngmc - Awesome truck... can't afford it
This all is more than just better milage, its also something different to play with, I know lots of power can come from them (later when I can afford the fuel lol) I might even go wheeling once in a while, and a trailer is not out of the question for my dads business. So it is a little more than just milage. (although thats the main goal)

1 low diesel... we need non lovers too man, but why are people swappin em out, and is this a common practice?


"If the lady in the front seat sitting beside you, either driving or riding, doesn't like the loud smelly truck, then you are sunk!"

haha... my missus actually loves the sound of a diesel (maybe not after a few months of riding in one, we'll see :P) and smell... meh, shes been around em lots with workin at barns. The whole shuttin em down cuz they are too loud is a pita... but I'm not at the drive thru all that much anyhow lol
The old cummins are the worst tho... man they are loud!

also northern and everyone... the programing advances are far better for the duramax than the 6.5 right? (chip, programmer) but still available? I'm gonna look into the aftermarket when I'm done here

Whats IDI mean? EDIT- Indirect Injection... and quieter I'm told?

what is the 6.5 worth for power in stock form? (you said 250 done up)


"For the average guys who buys a $5000 6.5, he can do all of the reliability upgrades and have a very decent truck for less than $8000....and still run WVO...."
-most motivating comment yet!

Thanks again guys!

edit... also what kinda mpg numbers should i be expecting stock and with some mods as suggested?
Chris, you said you get 15+? Is 20mpg out of the question here with the right mods?

[cayoterun]

I have a '96 S-10 xcab 4wd 4.3? (big v6) gas for my farm/muddy road truck. It gets maintenance when it quits, over-worked, over-loaded and abused. It amazes me at it's durability, power and mileage. Just beating around on the farm and parts chasing it gets 15-17 mpg. It has about 120,000 on it and hardly had any repairs.
I love diesels, but if your taking a poll, I'd stay with gas for your use. By the way, this is an interesting, informative, helpful site!
Cayoterun

[chrisk1500]

I get 15+ mpg (usually around 16 or 17).....20 is attainable.....in order for me to reach that number I will have to upgrade my exhaust system (I still have the stock choked system)....and I will have to lighten up my right foot - love that turbo sound!

PMD is a pump mounted driver - it tells the IP when to send fuel out to the injectors.....PMDs fail due to heatsoak when left mounted on the IP...once you remote mount the PMD out of the engine bay the PMD problems virtually disappear....in fact, Heath Diesel sells a PMD with remote harness and heatsink for $700 with a 7 year warranty....you can make your own or buy similar items on EBay for way cheaper (minus the warranty of course)...

The tank with in-tank heater is for WVO....you will have to go to frybrid.com to read about the WVO systems guys have put in place on their 6.5 (I do not run WVO)...

You can buy new PROM chips for the 94 and 95 6.5s and you need to buy a complete new ECM to reflash the 97+ 6.5s....

IDI is the quietest method of injection.....one of the reasons Detroit Diesel engineered the 6.5 that way (Yes Detroit Diesel designed the original 6.2 and helped put the 6.5 together - DD was owned by GM at the time)...

In stock form the 6.5 (F) puts out 190 HP and 410 lbft....the (S) puts out 180 HP and 360 lbft.....F engines are typically found in heavy duty trucks (8 lug 2500s) and S engines are found in lighter trucks (1500 series and 6 lug 2500s). The S has an EGR system and the F does not....

The S engine is easily converted to and F engine by changing the programming and disabling the EGR system...

EDIT - I have pulled 10000lbs without a problem with this truck....TurbineDoc on dieselplace.com pulls over 20k with his 1500.....not bad for a 6.5....

[northerngmc]

Stingray42, sounds like you are getting some sound advice from a big fan and expert, chrisk1500, on 6.5's.

In your price range that sounds like your best option.

[Stingray42]

Originally Posted by northerngmc

Stingray42, sounds like you are getting some sound advice from a big fan and expert, chrisk1500, on 6.5's.

In your price range that sounds like your best option.

agreed! He is def a huge help, and thanks to everyone else that is participating in this thread!

cayoterun- s10s are just too small for my frame, I'm a tall guy and get cramped up in them easily, and I spend alot of time on the road so I do like to be comfortable Great Trucks no doubt, and If I'd fit in one well,... I'd get one for sure!

so 20 is attainable... awesome I will be working towards that if I end up with a diesel for sure. And that diesel roar is nice to hear with big exhaust :P

Sounds like you love your truck, and thanks again for all your help! I'm gonna check out that website on bio and start lookin for my next truck!

One more question... How many miles are these good for, and what kinda milage shoudl I aim for for a truck? I know lower the better... but are there any real markers where things break or expensive maintenence needs to be done?

Thanks!