'60-'62 front axle vs later years--interchange?

[Brad54]

I'm gathering info for a '62 K10 long-step project I'm going to start after the first of the year.
I'm a little uneasy about the closed-knuckle front axle, in terms of cost to rebuild it and strength, and also brakes.
I plan to use the truck as my daily driver (4spd manual OD with .73:1 final), and also haul my vintage race car until I can get the deer-crashed Suburban in my avatar back on the road.
It'll go off-road occasionally, camping, hunting and a really nice fishing hole that's only accessible off road. All generally light 'wheeling though.

Should I rebuild the stocker and upgrade the drum brakes with self-adjusters (like I did on my 'burban), or swap in a late open-knuckle with discs?

If I swap in a later 44, my concern is with the spring mounts: the '60-'62 frames are narrower than the '63-'66 frames. Will the leaf spring mounts on the axles be a different width too? Or were they all the same due to offset of the spring perches on the chassis?

-Brad

[mike16]

nothing wrong with closed knuckle front axles. slightly greater turning radius. but the engineers did not feel that was a problem, Posi's. hd axles, disc brakes. I think they all fit,

My understanding is that the closed knuckle axle is a bit stronger than the oepn knuckle axles.

thats what my axle rebuilder told me when we arrived at that cross road, if you already have the closed knuckle axle the the money for an open one can be spent elsewhere.

[bhc41051]

Just my two cents but I had a 62 K10 completely stock. Driving on the freeway was to say the least a little unnerving. I think for a daily driver I would use the complete drive-train from a 73-87 pickup. Captainfab has the bracket you need to mount the power steering gear. The front end will bolt right up, the rear spring mounts will have to be moved out 3/4 of an inch or so.

[b454rat]

When I had my 3wd 62 burb, it had the stock axles in that I gave back to the guy. I swapped in 3/4 tons, rear was a Dana 60 from a Ford, bolted in, front was from a mid 70s Chevy, again bolted in. I want to say the front shock mounts where a lil different, but that was almost 10 years ago.

As for closed knuckle being stronger, I don't think so. I know many of them have tiny u-joints and small stub shaft, and I think smaller inners as well. The upgrade would be worth it just for the breaks.

[Brad54]

Originally Posted by bhc41051

Just my two cents but I had a 62 K10 completely stock. Driving on the freeway was to say the least a little unnerving. I think for a daily driver I would use the complete drive-train from a 73-87 pickup. Captainfab has the bracket you need to mount the power steering gear. The front end will bolt right up, the rear spring mounts will have to be moved out 3/4 of an inch or so.

Why was freeway driving "unnerving?" What'd the truck do that made it a white-knuckle ride?

-Brad

['63GENIII]

Really nothing wrong with well maintained and adjusted drum fronts with the closed knuckles. You do have to be more alert especially when towing though. I used to tow my flat bottom with my '57 3/4 ton Napco. It was busy to say the least - even with the light boat. Eventually, the drivers side kingpin broke at freeway speed leaving me with no brakes or steering. Thank God I wasn't towing. The guy that stopped to help me said that the truck got up on the passenger side wheels a couple of times. Still don't know how I didn't hurt someone.
All that said, I was a kid (18 yr old) and had no idea how to maintain that truck.
These days, I tow our Sanger V drive which is about 3 -4 times heavier than the old flat (4,600 lbs). Add to that the 1,000 lbs of family stuff in the boat and at least another 1,000 in the bed. I tow with the '63. I swapped the stock front axle out for a '73 3/4 ton D44 and the rear for an '05 14 bolt. Discs all around. Maybe even overkill but Im not complaining. Drums had their place in my life of wrenching on cars and trucks. I'd like to think that I know a little better now. Every modern car on the freeway (that cuts me off when Im towing) has better brakes than the engineers that designed that '63 could have ever imagined. I guess if Im going to keep up with the newer stuff, I at least have to be able to stop as good if not better than them. Just my.02

[Brad54]

Originally Posted by '63GENIII

Really nothing wrong with well maintained and adjusted drum fronts with the closed knuckles. You do have to be more alert especially when towing though. I used to tow my flat bottom with my '57 3/4 ton Napco. It was busy to say the least - even with the light boat. Eventually, the drivers side kingpin broke at freeway speed leaving me with no brakes or steering. Thank God I wasn't towing. The guy that stopped to help me said that the truck got up on the passenger side wheels a couple of times. Still don't know how I didn't hurt someone.
All that said, I was a kid (18 yr old) and had no idea how to maintain that truck.
These days, I tow our Sanger V drive which is about 3 -4 times heavier than the old flat (4,600 lbs). Add to that the 1,000 lbs of family stuff in the boat and at least another 1,000 in the bed. I tow with the '63. I swapped the stock front axle out for a '73 3/4 ton D44 and the rear for an '05 14 bolt. Discs all around. Maybe even overkill but Im not complaining. Drums had their place in my life of wrenching on cars and trucks. I'd like to think that I know a little better now. Every modern car on the freeway (that cuts me off when Im towing) has better brakes than the engineers that designed that '63 could have ever imagined. I guess if Im going to keep up with the newer stuff, I at least have to be able to stop as good if not better than them. Just my.02

maaaaan, your truck is PERFECT!
Can you PM me your email--I'd love to pick your brain about a half dozen different things.
I've been a car guy my whole life, and a tech editor for car magazines for 20 years... even wrote three Q&A columns for 4WOR early on, but other than that, I'm totally new to 4x4 stuff.
My project is a '62 1/2-ton long-bed step. Plans are for a stout 350 I've already got, 4spd manual OD trans, divorced case, bed-mount spare tire, utility rear bumper, winch on the front, and drive it like I did the Suburban in my avatar (80,000 miles in 10 years, through 20 states).
I don't mind Spartan, I can't stand unreliable and 55 in the right lane with the tach screaming.

-Brad

[bhc41051]

Originally Posted by Brad54

Why was freeway driving "unnerving?" What'd the truck do that made it a white-knuckle ride?

-Brad

Hey Brad, My 283 and 3.90 gearing wasn't terrible but it did take a while to get up to speed merging with cars diving 85 MPH while texting. It was probably just me, I tend to baby my truck but the RPM's and transfer case whine at 70 felt like I pushing it. I found myself driving in the right hand lane behind the tractor trailers, which is never a good thing "driving behind a billboard" as we say in the UPS world. At 70 I'm wondering how the truck would handle in a panic stop.
A panic stop pulling a boat? I'm sure I'd be the lead story on the 6 o'clock news.

[61K10]

you'll never fall asleep with the 221 tfc whine and the radio up high to overcome the 221 lol.

[Brad54]

So the t-case whines loud even when the hubs are disengaged?
I don't know what T-case I swapped into my '76 Dodge Power Wagon... it was originally full-time 4WD with no lock-out hubs up front. I swapped in a later case with 2WD setting, but still have the full-time front axle, and it makes a fair bit of noise. I figured it's because the front axle is still spinning the driveshaft, which is spinning the t-case internals even though they aren't engaged. I have a later axle with lock-outs to swap in, but haven't yet.
(basically, I'm trying to convert the '76 Dodge to be outfitted like Chevys came from the factory a decade and a half earlier!)

-Brad

[jeffahart]

I would go with a later open knuckle with disc if you're rebuilding and spending bucks. Don't worry about the perches, you'll work it out easy enough. Just get all the angles; you can mock up off the angles from the axle that's already in the truck. Getting your power brakes setup is where you want to spend your research. You have manual now right?

[Brad54]

Originally Posted by jeffahart

I would go with a later open knuckle with disc if you're rebuilding and spending bucks. Don't worry about the perches, you'll work it out easy enough. Just get all the angles; you can mock up off the angles from the axle that's already in the truck. Getting your power brakes setup is where you want to spend your research. You have manual now right?

It's manual drums now, but so was the Suburban in my avatar; self-adjuster hardware upgrade, and a power brake kit from CCP made it a lot better.
It's not the perches I'm worried about (I've moved perches before). It's that the cast center section stays in the same place. (and of course, overall width for the front axle is the same too).

I think the difference in rebuilding what I've got, versus buying a later disc brake unit, will probably be a bunch... the OE one being cheaper, since I've got a spare already, and drums are always a lot cheaper to rebuild than discs. Not to mention buying the later one to begin with, which is at least $250 everywhere I look.

-Brad

[jeffahart]

OK, I see; since that year has narrow frame you may need to match the hangers to the perches not vice versa(on later model axle). But, I noticed one post above said his later axle was a bolt in. I can see you have the ability to do this if it can be done. And I think if you can do it you should scrape the extra $250 and do it.

"Axle claustrophobia"..... yes that's right!

Let me pose this, to ruminate on.

Go to the Dynatrac site, look at the prorock60 or 44. Nice right. Let's agree you want one. But let's also agree that it's overkill. Not necessary for your build. But what is necessary? I'll tell you, and that's the room to grow and upgrade. When you look at the Dynatrac you say nice, but too expensive and not needed. What do you think when you analyze the old drum closed knuckle? See, you probably feel you may be boxing your self into a corner a bit. Two years form now you may be feeling like you should have upgraded the first time you had your hands on it! Ya, you don't need the upgrade... but you actually do, you will be driving it every day. And since you posted the question it bears weight!

[Brad54]

Originally Posted by jeffahart

OK, I see; since that year has narrow frame you may need to match the hangers to the perches not vice versa(on later model axle). But, I noticed one post above said his later axle was a bolt in. I can see you have the ability to do this if it can be done. And I think if you can do it you should scrape the extra $250 and do it.

"Axle claustrophobia"..... yes that's right!

Let me pose this, to ruminate on.

Go to the Dynatrac site, look at the prorock60 or 44. Nice right. Let's agree you want one. But let's also agree that it's overkill. Not necessary for your build. But what is necessary? I'll tell you, and that's the room to grow and upgrade. When you look at the Dynatrac you say nice, but too expensive and not needed. What do you think when you analyze the old drum closed knuckle? See, you probably feel you may be boxing your self into a corner a bit. Two years form now you may be feeling like you should have upgraded the first time you had your hands on it! Ya, you don't need the upgrade... but you actually do, you will be driving it every day. And since you posted the question it bears weight!

I agree with your outlook COMPLETELY.
That's the reason for this post.
I'm trying really hard to balance my wants, needs and long-term use of the truck.

Option B-16 is to have my friend at Ultimate Driveline in Michigan take the original 44 housing and cut the ends off, then weld on later ends to convert to open knuckle and disc brakes. That's if I can't find a 44 that bolts right in.
(the original 44 in my Suburban failed because the plug welds from the housing to the tubes all cracked, so the tube was sloppy in the cast center housing, causing a bind where the splines entered the original posi unit... the inside spider and last 1/2-inch of the axle splines stripped smooth, and at some point spun the carrier bearing in the housing. He welded the original tubes, trailing arm perches and panhard mount to a new center)


He regularly re-tubes Danas for rock crawling, with thicker-wall tubing in the center housing... I don't need anything that drastic, but he's a hell of a resource.

He's the first one that made me think about the open vs closed knuckles, but his first comment was "parts are hard to get and expensive," we didn't get to the part of the discussion concerning strength and brakes. (This was actually loooong before I bought the truck).

Two things should be noted: I am frequently accused of suffering from Analysis Paralysis; and when I finally do it, it never needs to be rethought or redone.

-Brad

[mike16]

I agree,

if your trying to save a bit of money then stick with what you have. if your going to install an up grade then a dana 60 is where to start.

but there really is nothing wrong with a 44,

[b454rat]

Another axle will bolt in, no need to get one custom made. lower shock mounts are a little different, but not hard to make it work.

['63GENIII]

Originally Posted by b454rat

Another axle will bolt in, no need to get one custom made. lower shock mounts are a little different, but not hard to make it work.

Yes. The frame width may have changed throughout the years but the spring hangers were also adjusted (either made closer to or farther from the frame) which kept the perches on the axle at the same width.

The T221 will whine. I believe it is because power transmission does not take a straight line through the transfer case as in a 205. I tend to think of the 205 in the same manner as a center support bearing which normally shouldn't make any noticeable noise. The 221 input shaft is higher than the front and rear outputs. So even in 2wd, the power is having to go through the input shaft, the counter shaft and then to the output. This process inherently makes gear noise and heat. I also think they may be more of a straight cut gear than a 205 which has helical cut gears. The helical cut gears drastically cut down on the gear mesh noise when in 4wd. The T221 that I had seemed to run hot (compared to the rear axle and now the 205 that I run). I tried to always keep an extra quart of gear oil in it thinking it may help. In the end, it became easier for me to swap in the 205 rather than patch up or rebuild the T221. I still have the 221 as I can't bear to not have anything in the garage to stub my toe on. LOL OUCH!

[b454rat]

I know when I had my 62 4wd 'burban a 3/4 ton axle from mid 70s bolted right in. I didn't do a thing to the springs or perches. I even think I had a HP60 in there at one point...

[Dynatrac]

The guy earlier makes a good point. Our tagline is Confidence to Explore because we built the right axle for you the right way. You shouldn’t have any regrets down the road, or wherever you want to go. We’re more expensive than junkyard axles, but we’re competitive with anyone’s custom axles that are built using all-new parts. And ours are 100% made in the USA with all new parts.

You can call us for a quote or fill out this form and submit your request online: http://www.dynatrac.com/axle-quote-form

[jeffahart]

We'll I think this article is pretty decent how it lays out a build your own vs Dynatrac; they attempt an apples to apples type comparison. whether you go 44 or 60 the same principles apply when it comes to: the "preponderance of parts" alone:= analyzing parts, pricing and chasing down the parts, prepping and assembly... all time and headache. You spent all the bucks on parts, how's your experience on the assembly of your cash outlay?

Anyhow, it's a good read, even if your building budget axle. It's the same principle that pushed me toward Boyce. I was spending waaaayyy to much of my time trying to communicate with junkyards, seeing a lot of junk on the goose chase for an axle. And that's just to get cheap dung that I would be faced with a rebuild on anyway!

Another .02 from me.

http://www.fourwheeler.com/how-to/tr...s-dynatrac-60/

[BigSix]

I was in the same boat - I have a good D44 in my 65...but I bought a 60 with disks to swap in. Maybe the 44 will go to someone restoring a truck but for me I would like the open knuckle turning radius.

[jeffahart]

Good choice. I'm looking for 70 outer shafts for mine right now.

But re: the 44. I could not get any biters when trying to sell my 1970 Drum, open knuckle 44. I ended up dumping it for scrap iron prices(I don't store large parts). I pulled the ring and pinion out of the eaton for a guy on this board and sold the locker to tony also on this board.

So, if you think you will get your money back after a rebuild of an older axle set with the idea to sell it, and use the money for an upgrade later, it may not be money in the bank... you may be hanging on to that axle awhile. I'm talking the 44 not the 60. 60 could be money in the bank.

[BigSix]

Nah I doubt anyone will want my front axle - not really worth selling anyway. I'll keep it around and trade it for something one day. Maybe just sell the new ring and pinion and carrier in it and scrap it - who knows. I think getting disks up front on my 60 will be the best bet for my truck!