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Old 10-02-2017, 10:15 AM   #26
MARTINSR
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Re: Pearl vs Metallic questions

You need to practice with some junk parks like you have with that door. You can go and get another door from a body shop for free. We throw out parts like this every day, LOTS of them. Every once in a while someone comes by because they want some metal or a test panel like you need and we are more than happy to give them to them so you could check with a local body shop to get a door off a Corolla or something.

This can REALLY make a big difference, paint the whole door. Then the next day mask the door down the middle and paint half of it. See if you can do it with the exact same gun distance and speed and pressure and all that, it's really not that hard. Do be sure you have the same color, a little different pressure can make a big difference in how metallic lays down. It's not that hard, but I can't believe the guys who can't pull it off!

I remember a head painter once who just couldn't grasp it, the car would be different colors and he would make comments like "the spray out card looked good though."

One day he sprayed the fender on a truck and the color was off by a mile. He showed me how the spray out card matched beautiful. I looked at him right in the eye and said "That is the evidence, that is the finger print, the DNA, that is the evidence that you sprayed the spray out card different than the fender!" He STILL didn't get it.

This is a test spray I am referring too, he would spray his spray out card to match the color WAY wetter than the car, I would see him, I would watch him BOMB the paint on the spray out card MUCH wetter than you could possibly spray the car. I would go and look through the window of the booth as he sprayed the car and of course he was spraying it normally not bombing it on like the spray out card, NO WONDER they were different colors! This isn't rocket science....but alas he couldn't get it.

Then I see guys like you who have put the time and thought into it and spray a car in pieces over months and it looks like it was painted at once.

Consistency that's all it takes!

Brian
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Old 10-02-2017, 10:47 AM   #27
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Re: Pearl vs Metallic questions

Not as experienced as others so when I spray I write everything down: what part, outside temp, inside temp, humidity & pressure. I'm also really picky on my mixing ratios. That way if I have a problem I might be able to trace it down. (the problem is usually me!)
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Old 10-03-2017, 10:06 AM   #28
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Re: Pearl vs Metallic questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
You need to practice with some junk parks like you have with that door. You can go and get another door from a body shop for free. We throw out parts like this every day, LOTS of them. Every once in a while someone comes by because they want some metal or a test panel like you need and we are more than happy to give them to them so you could check with a local body shop to get a door off a Corolla or something.

This can REALLY make a big difference, paint the whole door. Then the next day mask the door down the middle and paint half of it. See if you can do it with the exact same gun distance and speed and pressure and all that, it's really not that hard. Do be sure you have the same color, a little different pressure can make a big difference in how metallic lays down. It's not that hard, but I can't believe the guys who can't pull it off!
Would this panel do? I had practiced how to weld on it years back.

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Not as experienced as others so when I spray I write everything down: what part, outside temp, inside temp, humidity & pressure. I'm also really picky on my mixing ratios. That way if I have a problem I might be able to trace it down. (the problem is usually me!)
Ill keep notes as well, thanks!
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Old 10-03-2017, 12:00 PM   #29
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Re: Pearl vs Metallic questions

Any panel would do, but that will take a bit of work to even get it good enough for a test panel. At your local body shop they will have bent fenders and such with nice paint on them that all it needs is a scuff and you can paint it. If you want to sand all that door down feathering it out and put a coat of primer on, that's good too.

Brian
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Old 10-03-2017, 12:13 PM   #30
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Re: Pearl vs Metallic questions

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paint the whole door. Then the next day mask the door down the middle and paint half of it. See if you can do it with the exact same gun distance and speed and pressure and all that, it's really not that hard.
I see what you mean, Ill check around.
Question though on the 2nd day masking half the panel and recreating the same factors. Wont the fact that its a 2nd coat look different to begin with even if I have everything going right? Just making sure I understand the exercise. I assume its more about practice than it is about matching exactness in the panel.
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Old 10-03-2017, 12:15 PM   #31
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Re: Pearl vs Metallic questions

It should NOT look different. If it has full coverage, if it's applied the same and has full coverage they will be the same.

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Old 10-03-2017, 05:40 PM   #32
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Re: Pearl vs Metallic questions

You see this every day but Im amazed at the scraps they have in the dumpster. I also saw a 63 c10 left front fender sitting next to it that was spoken for. Now its time to scuff it up and get some paint going.
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Old 10-09-2017, 11:14 AM   #33
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Re: Pearl vs Metallic questions

Hey Brian, before I get completely committed the color choice I read this in one of your write ups on taping the jambs

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...ad.php?t=80128

Quote:
Some “value lines” can be very transparent, so you save no money because you may have to put on twice as much. A high pearl or metallic color may “model” easily, that may be a reason to scrap the color or brand.
I have purchased some of the saddle paint color from PPG and the guy told me it doesnt come in the premium line..just the shop line or something like that. Ill post the pic of the can if it helps to get more detail.

Question 1:
How can I accurately test the number of coats needed and transparency on the door I found? I assume spray coat after coat and see what looks right, but what Im getting at is how is it best to judge the color and number of coats to make it look its best. Once I have that figured out I can tell a few things, how much paint Im likely to need and just how transparent the paint they sold me is. To a point you made in the write up, it can effect the old budget.

Question 2:
How can a newbie best tell this metallic paint is going to "model" easily?

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Old 10-09-2017, 05:59 PM   #34
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Re: Pearl vs Metallic questions

We use test panels like this so you can see if it has full coverage.





I find it very hard, unbelievable that the color isn't available in the top of the line paint. The colors chosen in those value lines are from the top of the line, there are simply much less of them. Where as the top of the line system may have 12k colors the value line has 1500 and where as the top of the line will have "alternates" for each color the value line has none, it's that sort of thing.

If you didn't know, and "alternate" is a created by the manufacturer when they paint thousands of cars and they all aren't shot with the same can of paint right? Even when the paint goes to the factory in 55 gallon drums, there are MANY of those 55 gallon drums and they can vary a little in color, thus creating "alternates." Many colors will have 5-7 alternates. And you can't believe the difference between them! OMG they are DIFFERENT colors. Some you would never see if the cars were parked side by side, others would be very obvious!


But I find it very hard to believe that color wouldn't be available in the high end lne

line. Personally, I would think about a different color then.

Brian
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Old 10-09-2017, 07:14 PM   #35
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Re: Pearl vs Metallic questions

I'll double check on the high end availability, the guy mixing it last time muttered that it wasn't as he was looking at his computer screen doing a search. I'll also see if they carry any of those test panels,I tried doing a search for them and found this site but Id need to order 750 of them.

https://www.acttestpanels.com/produc...3&categoryid=2

On the question about the paint modeling,can you describe what to look for?Orange peel? Bumpiness?
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Old 11-12-2017, 11:54 AM   #36
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Re: Pearl vs Metallic questions

I worked on painting the test door yesterday and kept notes on how it went. First I roughed up the painted surface by sanding with a 60 grit to start with and then a 220 to smooth it out. In the future I wouldnt skip between paper ranges that extreme but that’s all I had left for my orbital..gotta buy some more ranges. In sanding there were some scratched spots I went to aggressive on and primer showed through along with some metal. I used the compressed air tool to blow off the worst of it, then applied degreaser and cleaned it up and let it dry for an hour.

For consistency I thought to keep my paint gun noted as to where the fluid and air flow dials/knobs were set. My paint gun is a Devilbiss Finishline that came with 4 tips, 1.3, 1.5 1.8, and a 2.2. There weren’t any markings on the knob faces to know how many rotations I would have made, so I tightened them both down completely and scribed a line at the base of each dial/knob at 6 oclock. For the fluid knob I turned it out 3 full rotations as a start. Ive read where some painters usually keep it fully backed out to have max flow and adjust the air mainly. I thought I would start there and do a paint test to make sure its that cigar shaped pattern on the cardboard panel. For the air flow I rotated 1.5 turns for a start. I used the 1.3 tip as the tech sheet for the paint noted either a 1.3 to a 1.6 to be used.

Then I mixed the paint. I wasn’t sure just how many coats it would take so I started with the 1:1 mix as indicated by 2 oz of Base to 2 oz of reducer. This metallic paint is the PPG shopline Saddle color I previously had them mix even though I will need to find a different match since it turns out that this color is not offered in the high end line. I figured for this test of whether or not I can paint a metallic separately and have the paint match up it would be fine. I mixed up the paint and poured it through the filter into the gun canister and sprayed a test onto the cardboard with around 25 psi displaying on the gauge. Between the thinned paint and the fact that its color onto brown cardboard doesn’t pop it was kinda hard to tell if I was getting that cigar or not. Considering I only had 4 oz of paint to test with I started spraying. I went at a consistent speed 8 inches or so from the surface and dropped down each row/sweep about 4 inches to get what I think is the right overlap. The first coat was barely noticeable. I waited 8 min to spray again as the tech sheet said 5 to 10min between coats. I ran out of paint after 2 row sweeping passes on the 3rd coat. So I mixed up another 4oz.

At 3 coats it looked like this.
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Old 11-12-2017, 12:00 PM   #37
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Re: Pearl vs Metallic questions

After that 3rd coat at 1.5 turns on the air dial I rotated it out 1 more full turn to get a total a of 2.5 turns on it to try and get the paint to spray out better. I had to apply 3 more coats at that setting, with another need to mix more paint at the 5th coat. After 6 total coats the primer exposed spots looked like they got better coverage. Then for the drop coat I lowered the pressure on the gun to around 18 or so. I backed away twice the distance compared to previous copats and sprayed not in the 4inch drop per row method but wider and fewer rows. I was trying to replicate what I saw the guys do in the drop coat videos that were mentioned in the previous posts.

Here are some final pics. So in all it took 6 base coats plus 1 top coat and I still have about 2 oz left over from 12 oz total. If it took that much for one side of one door Im guessing then when I do buy the final color whatever it is that Ill need around 2 gallons or better.

Brian, from here should I just tape off one side and spray a few coats and a drop coat to complete this test?
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Old 11-13-2017, 01:04 AM   #38
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Re: Pearl vs Metallic questions

First of all, your sanding technique sounds like it needs work. You will want to sand any surface you are going to prime at least up to 150, prime it, and then sand the primer with 220, 320, 400, and 600. Any sand-through spots should be touched up with some etch primer (spray can is fine) before painting. Also, to use less paint, get the proper shade sealer and spray a coat of that first. It will give you an even tone to lay your color on, and it'll take less to get even coverage.

As for the gun settings, I'd have to play with the gun to make sure it doesn't act weird, but usually I run the fan wide open, the fluid wide open to where the trigger won't move any farther back and then back in a quarter turn. Also I run the the air adjusting knob wide open. There is no need to use the air adjustment knob when you are using a regulator. It's just redundant at that point. The only things I adjust are my air pressure (with a regulator at the inlet), my distance from the panel, my speed, my overlap, and sometimes the fluid with my trigger finger when doing a blend. My guess is that you'd want to run that gun around 25-29 psi, and drop it a little like you are to do your drop coat. Usually 50% overlap and 4-7 inches from the panel, but the drop coat should be 80-90% overlap and about 10-12 inches from the panel.

To avoid "tiger striping" you may want to switch up the directions you apply each coat. So if your first coat is applied by moving side to side, the next one go up and down.
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Old 11-13-2017, 01:07 AM   #39
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Re: Pearl vs Metallic questions

Yes, you can just tape off one side and paint the other side right over what you just got done with. To get a true picture of the color, though, you will need to clear the panel. Clearcoat really changes the look of the paint significantly.
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Old 11-13-2017, 10:03 AM   #40
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Re: Pearl vs Metallic questions

Thanks for the pointers, I definitely rushed the sanding just to get the color test going on this scrap door panel. On the truck Ill be stepping up the sanding. Good to know also about how you run the gun with air and fluid dials wide open when using the regulator at the gun inlet. The exercise Brians got me doing is to get a consistent individual panel application since the space I have to paint in wont allow for my truck to be fully assembled when painting. And then this metallic paint making it more tricky to keep consistent with that panel for panel approach. I wonder if I need to scuff up the side that Im about to paint over as the test, since its been over 24 hrs since I last painted. But this is just a test, maybe it ok to just shoot the paint?
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Old 11-13-2017, 01:13 PM   #41
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Re: Pearl vs Metallic questions

Actually, most of your color difference is going to be a result of different booth temperatures and humidity. Air pressure at the gun also makes a huge difference because it makes the metallic lay in different orientations. I wouldn't get too concerned about that though, because the drop coat is meant to prevent that.

As far as the trial, yes just tape it off and paint it. It's not a big deal because its just a trial.
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Old 11-18-2017, 01:46 PM   #42
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Re: Pearl vs Metallic questions

Well here is the trial result. I bought 4 oz's of a new color paint that does come in a high end. I shot the right side first with 4 coats and a drop coat. The left side I began to run out of test paint and cut it to 3 coats. I see that the metallic laid down with more pop than the left side. Paint store is closed til Monday,so I will go back and get 8 or more oz to do the next test with. I want to give this the proper consistency test before I bail out of metallic and find a solid I like instead.
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Old 11-23-2017, 10:45 AM   #43
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Re: Pearl vs Metallic questions

Just as a side note, if you are looking to match the color of the glove box there is a Nissan code that is pretty darn close. You may want to check it out, factory Nissan code EVO
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