Headers and clutch linkage.

[SwitchbladeII]

I have a 69 C10 with a 350 mounted in the rear I6 position. The PO hacked the Z-bar, now the clutch rod is at such an angle I am surprised that it even works! The other issue is there is no free play and it can't be adjusted in it's current state. The reason for the hack is the headers are interfering with bar in it's stock location. Headers are rusty and want to replace them. Has anyone have any suggestions on headers? Brand and part number would be great. I know I have other options going to ram horns, moving the motor to the V8 position ( I do know what is involved) or a hydraulic clutch. I know the rams horn manifold would be the easiest and lease expensive but I would rather go the header route if I can find one that works and would require minimal if any work to the Z-bar to keep the geometry close to stock. Any suggestions are welcome.

[crazy longhorn]

A pic of the parts used, would be helpfull....but here is what worked for me? I ran a hedman 69090, in I6 position, with ALL of the v8 sb linkage (Z bar /rod ect). The bracket for the sb was tossed, & a screw in ball was in the foward hole in the block. Be sure that the frame bracket sets the Z bar perpendicular to the block (a little up/down is not an issue). You may need to heat?bend the arms on the Z bar,just a tad. I also ran a set of 2452 Hooker comps, same position. If you want to spend the coin, the Hooker "tucked " nicer longhorn

[mongocanfly]

I also used hedmans with z bar...cleared just fine...if yours is hacked it'd be hard to say one way or the other what will work....

[OBS454]

Mine is a big block but had similar problems. Due to the headers I had to bend the bell crank tab towards the frame and heat/twist it slightly to line up with the clutch fork. Obviously this weakened the structure so I welded a support bracket from the bottom of the bent tab to the round body of the bell crank that was approximately 4 inches long. Now strong enough but the bending I did messed up the geometry so I used a heim joint at the bolt hole so that the rod would be able to move freely and compensate for the bend. Tried to take a pic but can't get the phone up in there.

[SwitchbladeII]

Thank you for the feedback and suggestions. The Block has the ball screwed into the block in the forward hole and the Z-bar it is mounted level and perpendicular to the frame. The lower lever was cut and welded under the top lever. This is where the angle comes in, they tried to but a "s" bend in the rod may of helped a little but not much. The bar and all associated with it will be replaced. I am going to check out the headers crazy longhorn suggested. Mongocanfly you mentioned Hedmans in your reply. Do you remember the part number? I don't want to modify the bar or linkage. The issue is the rear tube, I have a 70 C10 with A/T and Hedmans 69010 with these headers the rear tube wouldn't allow the bar to be mounted. Sanderson has a pair that would work. They are short and I would rather go with a long tube header option. Thanks again to all who responded your suggestions and input are greatly appreciated.

[SwitchbladeII]

Thank you for your input I will check out those part numbers.

[SwitchbladeII]

Thank you for your reply do you know the part number for the Hedmans?

[mongocanfly]

I don't remember the number. ..that's been about 6yrs ago. ..did getem from summit though....

[SwitchbladeII]

Thanks Greg, They were Hedmens and the linkage needed no modification gives me something to check into. I will call them tomorrow they may be familiar with this situation, since it is not unique. I wonder if any one has done a poll on I6 to V8 being put where the V8 would be from the factory or left it in the rear I6 position like mine was done.

[crazy longhorn]

Originally Posted by SwitchbladeII

Thanks Greg, They were Hedmens and the linkage needed no modification gives me something to check into. I will call them tomorrow they may be familiar with this situation, since it is not unique. I wonder if any one has done a poll on I6 to V8 being put where the V8 would be from the factory or left it in the rear I6 position like mine was done.

The best thing, would be to post a couple pics of what you have Too many mods on these old trucks over the yrs, make it rough to tell 'square"! The 69092 headers are listed for a V8 stick shift.....in stock (factory position). In the I6 position, it is different(3 1/2" set back)....longhorn

[SwitchbladeII]

I will try to shot some pictures tomorrow.

[SwitchbladeII]

Here are some pictures of my clutch linkage. I believe the angle of the rod is causing the Z-bar to be off line a bit. I haven't cleaned the motor yet old VC were leaking. Please Note! I am not the doer but I will be the fixer!

[OBS454]

It looks like the lower arm is welded in an incorrect position. If you look at bell cranks for sale online you'll notice that there are certain angles at which they are welded from the factory. It appears that the bottom arm is already past the bottom of the intended arc of movement to keep the rod more on a level plane so (it appears) your losing a good deal of effectiveness. These angles all have to work together starting from the pedal crank. Go look at a factory setup on a similar truck (check under the dash to make sure no one has altered the factory linkage) and measure the angle in degrees of the upper arm and check yours. The bell crank body looks good but check that too including wear on the two pivot balls. Then measure all the particulars of the lower tab and replace or re-weld your bell crank to match. Be sure to check that the LENGTH of the upper and lower arms are correct too. I remember some very good pics on google when typing in bell crank for 67-72 chevy truck. The more you alter the factory geometry the more difficult it will be to have proper movement and reliability. This includes proper clutch engagement and future problems with preload on the throwout bearing because it is all designed to work together. Then get headers that will work with your linkage. Pump that bell crank full of grease when you get done.

[SwitchbladeII]

OBS454 Thank you for your feedback but I am well aware what the problem is and how to fix it. crazy longhorn has asked be a couple of times to post some pictures so I did. The PO due to the headers used made the modifications. I intend to replace all the clutch linkage including the Z-bar. My issue is I don't want to modify the z-bar unless it's minimal so I am looking for headers that I can use without modifications. Still looking for suggestions on those. Most I6 to V8 conversions used the rear position so I am sure I am not the first to run into this problem. I was going to call Hedman today but ran out of time. Who knows maybe there is a market for a header that works with this type of conversion.

[OBS454]

Originally Posted by SwitchbladeII

OBS454 Thank you for your feedback but I am well aware what the problem is and how to fix it. crazy longhorn has asked be a couple of times to post some pictures so I did. The PO due to the headers used made the modifications. I intend to replace all the clutch linkage including the Z-bar. My issue is I don't want to modify the z-bar unless it's minimal so I am looking for headers that I can use without modifications. Still looking for suggestions on those. Most I6 to V8 conversions used the rear position so I am sure I am not the first to run into this problem. I was going to call Hedman today but ran out of time. Who knows maybe there is a market for a header that works with this type of conversion.

OK sorry if I came off as a know it all. I just went through all this with my truck. Please post the result when you get through.

[crazy longhorn]

Originally Posted by OBS454

OK sorry if I came off as a know it all. I just went through all this with my truck. Please post the result when you get through.

I did not take it that way....I saw the same cobbled up linkage, that you did! All thoughts are important on the board I am 60yrs old , & have played with these trucks, for about 40 yrs now.....but I damn sure dont know it all! Let us all play/ have fun....I really dont think the OP had any ill issues/feelings about your post? For this old man....I am like an old dog, you can show me a few more" trixs"....but you cant get me to run fast with heart....longhorn

[OBS454]

Yeah, I just wanted to make sure. Clarity is a big deal with me. Thanks for the kind words.

[SwitchbladeII]

OBS454 no apology necessary you were right on with your advise and obviously know what you are taking about. It never hurts to share ideas a lot of people learn from this forum including myself some just don't ask questiions.

[Macdaddy1]

Ok so now I am confused. I have a 65 c10 with a v8 that I am trying to install the zbar correctly. I have 2 of them. The one that came from the I6 has the pedal linkage going straight down to the z bar bracket which is in a horizontal position the other one has the z bar bracket in a vertical position like the one in the picture above. Which one is correct?

[SwitchbladeII]

Originally Posted by Macdaddy1

Ok so now I am confused. I have a 65 c10 with a v8 that I am trying to install the zbar correctly. I have 2 of them. The one that came from the I6 has the pedal linkage going straight down to the z bar bracket which is in a horizontal position the other one has the z bar bracket in a vertical position like the one in the picture above. Which one is correct?

Don't go by the pictures I posted, those are from the PO of my truck it was made to accommodate the headers and is total butcher job of the way it should be, read OBS464 reply to my posting of the pictures his suggestions are right on

[Captainfab]

From my experience and in looking at your pics, I think that the lower arm on the bellcrank needs to be moved over towards the engine so that it and the rod to the clutch fork are between the #7 header tube and the block. The other option would be to purchase an original '67-'72 bellcrank and a set of Hedman 69260 headers. Then everything should be a bolt together deal.

Originally Posted by SwitchbladeII

OBS454 Thank you for your feedback but I am well aware what the problem is and how to fix it. crazy longhorn has asked be a couple of times to post some pictures so I did. The PO due to the headers used made the modifications. I intend to replace all the clutch linkage including the Z-bar. My issue is I don't want to modify the z-bar unless it's minimal so I am looking for headers that I can use without modifications. Still looking for suggestions on those. Most I6 to V8 conversions used the rear position so I am sure I am not the first to run into this problem. I was going to call Hedman today but ran out of time. Who knows maybe there is a market for a header that works with this type of conversion.

The '63-'66 trucks use a different clutch bellcrank than the '67-'72 trucks. The same bellcrank is used for the I6's and the V8's. The one from your I6 will work with a small block as long as you mounted the V8 in the same location as the I6, which is correct for the '63-'66 trucks.

Originally Posted by Macdaddy1

Ok so now I am confused. I have a 65 c10 with a v8 that I am trying to install the zbar correctly. I have 2 of them. The one that came from the I6 has the pedal linkage going straight down to the z bar bracket which is in a horizontal position the other one has the z bar bracket in a vertical position like the one in the picture above. Which one is correct?

[SwitchbladeII]

Originally Posted by Captainfab

From my experience and in looking at your pics, I think that the lower arm on the bellcrank needs to be moved over towards the engine so that it and the rod to the clutch fork are between the #7 header tube and the block. The other option would be to purchase an original '67-'72 bellcrank and a set of Hedman 69260 headers. Then everything should be a bolt together deal.




The '63-'66 trucks use a different clutch bellcrank than the '67-'72 trucks. The same bellcrank is used for the I6's and the V8's. The one from your I6 will work with a small block as long as you mounted the V8 in the same location as the I6, which is correct for the '63-'66 trucks.

Thanks captainfab, I was looking at the 69260 headers and thought they would work and solve my problem along with replacing all the linkage. looked closer and noticed Hedman list them only to 1966. I am planning on calling them to verify. Looking at them I don't see why they won't work. Maybe the issue is with a V* in the front position? Have you or anyone used them on the rear mounted V8?

[crazy longhorn]

Originally Posted by SwitchbladeII

Thanks captainfab, I was looking at the 69260 headers and thought they would work and solve my problem along with replacing all the linkage. looked closer and noticed Hedman list them only to 1966. I am planning on calling them to verify. Looking at them I don't see why they won't work. Maybe the issue is with a V* in the front position? Have you or anyone used them on the rear mounted V8?

Captain & I, have worked on different series trucks.....but after looking at the headers , that he suggested I think they will work for you The difference in the frames (63-66 vs 67-72 ), is not much. The reason that they do not list the 69260 header for later than 66, id because the engine was moved foward (v8 sb)in 67. You are 3 1/2 " back from I6 spot on your truck. If you can purchase locally(no hassels with returns), I would try that set.....if they fit the chassis, you should have enough room, the shoot the linkage around the moon One more thing, if you prep that Z bar/& linkage properly, you can probably use what you have! OBS454, suggested heim (rod ends) on the linkage.....I have done that on the last 4 trucks & will say that it works far better than the stock setup Longhorn

[SwitchbladeII]

Originally Posted by crazy longhorn

Captain & I, have worked on different series trucks.....but after looking at the headers , that he suggested I think they will work for you The difference in the frames (63-66 vs 67-72 ), is not much. The reason that they do not list the 69260 header for later than 66, id because the engine was moved foward (v8 sb)in 67. You are 3 1/2 " back from I6 spot on your truck. If you can purchase locally(no hassels with returns), I would try that set.....if they fit the chassis, you should have enough room, the shoot the linkage around the moon One more thing, if you prep that Z bar/& linkage properly, you can probably use what you have! OBS454, suggested heim (rod ends) on the linkage.....I have done that on the last 4 trucks & will say that it works far better than the stock setup Longhorn

Thanks Longhorn I looked at these and thought they night work but after your input and the Captain's I am going to try a set and check to see if I can return them if they don't fit but I think they will. I do like the heim end idea. I only have been into trucks for the past few years but have been a gearhead for 50 plus years. Mainly Corvettes, Street Rods, Muscle cars and Harleys. So it's good to get input from you guys who have way more truck experience.

[crazy longhorn]

Captian fab , is really sharp....we have not had any issues, we both tell it how we see it! Do not forget about a new comer OBS454....He brought up , what this old man had not remembered We will all work together, to help....longhorn