The 1947 - Present Chevrolet & GMC Truck Message Board Network







Register or Log In To remove these advertisements.

Go Back   The 1947 - Present Chevrolet & GMC Truck Message Board Network > General Truck Forums > Engine & Drivetrain

Web 67-72chevytrucks.com


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-16-2018, 12:20 AM   #1
'69 Gmc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Columbia TN
Posts: 74
Vortec head problem?

First off, this is my first engine build. I recently bought a set of 062 vortec heads not cracked. They have the Alex parts 110# valve seat springs on them. Not machined but will supposedly clear up to .550 lift. (I plan on running the camp xe268 .480 lift). My question is with the valve tips. All are very mushroomed/ rounded to the point where if they where ground flat the rockers would hit the retainers. What would have caused this? And would yíall recommend all new valves? Iíve almost purchased Alex parts stainless valves set a couple times, but Iíd hate to put a new set in and the same thing happen.
Posted via Mobile Device
Attached Images
 
'69 Gmc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2018, 07:47 AM   #2
PGSigns
Senior Member
 
PGSigns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Hayes Va
Posts: 3,751
Re: Vortec head problem?

Pull a rocker and less look at the bottom. Are the the correct vortec rocker?
Jimmy
__________________
60 to 66 Chevy and GMC window decals
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=661131
Good friends, good food and a hotrod what else do you need?
1966 BBW long fleet Daily driver
1965 BBW short fleet Sold and going to a good home
1965 Suburban
2003 3500 Duramax
2005 Ultra Classic
PGSigns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2018, 07:56 AM   #3
homemade87
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Guntersville Alabama
Posts: 973
Re: Vortec head problem?

If I was to guess I would say the push rod length was to long or short . As the valve rotated the rocker hammered on the outside edge of the stem . Since they all are like this , its a good possibility .

I think new valves are in order . I would not run them

Last edited by homemade87; 02-16-2018 at 08:06 AM.
homemade87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2018, 12:13 PM   #4
'69 Gmc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Columbia TN
Posts: 74
Back story. Itís a Ď98 GM crate 350 with the vortec heads added. The PO bought an old Vette this engine was in, he said two lifters failed and bent two pushrods. He LS swapped as he intended to. I got it as is with no lifters or pushrods in it at all with the intake just sitting on it. He said he just threw them all away because they were cheap junk.


They are the vortec rockers. All the tips are rounded but not the same. Some are worse than others. Just want make sure i correct what caused the failure/ valve tip wear problem.
Posted via Mobile Device
Attached Images
  
'69 Gmc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2018, 12:23 PM   #5
homemade87
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Guntersville Alabama
Posts: 973
Re: Vortec head problem?

I also would put a dial on a lifter to check to see what lift it is . Who knows what is really in there or what had been done .

I still say push rod length was wrong making the rocker ride on the edge .
homemade87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2018, 12:33 PM   #6
'69 Gmc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Columbia TN
Posts: 74
The only valves I can find that have the .260 groove to tip like the Vortecs came with are stainless. Are the stainless the way to go? Can I use stainless with the same valve seals?
When I seen the under side of the rockers, that donít look good. Do they need replaced as well?

Measure lifter? I donít have any that were in the motor. I have my new ones that I got with my xe268 cam.

I did mic the cam that was in the motor. Seems to be the stock crate cam. Around .400 valve lift
Posted via Mobile Device

Last edited by '69 Gmc; 02-16-2018 at 12:42 PM.
'69 Gmc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2018, 01:36 PM   #7
homemade87
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Guntersville Alabama
Posts: 973
Re: Vortec head problem?

I thought you were going to reuse that old cam . What I was referring to was measure the lift on that old cam when it was in the motor to get the lift . Any lifter would do that .

Being you are putting a new cam in , heres what I would do . Those rocker studs look to be screw in ones . I would remove them and add some guide plates for the push rods ( could be the rockers were walking sideways ) . The stainless valve are a good option . I have always run stainless valves . They are pretty durable . I also would replace the rockers . I feel if the old valves have damage so does the rockers ( those stamped steel are not the best ) . May even look into a roller tip rocker as well . By all means check push rod lenght and get the proper swipe pattern on the valve . This should get you running .
homemade87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2018, 02:04 PM   #8
PGSigns
Senior Member
 
PGSigns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Hayes Va
Posts: 3,751
Re: Vortec head problem?

Were the pushrod holes drilled? Were the rockers worn out when they went on? They look like it.
Jimmy
__________________
60 to 66 Chevy and GMC window decals
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=661131
Good friends, good food and a hotrod what else do you need?
1966 BBW long fleet Daily driver
1965 BBW short fleet Sold and going to a good home
1965 Suburban
2003 3500 Duramax
2005 Ultra Classic
PGSigns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2018, 02:58 PM   #9
'69 Gmc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Columbia TN
Posts: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by PGSigns View Post
Were the pushrod holes drilled? Were the rockers worn out when they went on? They look like it.
Jimmy
The pushrod holes are stock vortec 7/16Ē circle.
I havenít ran this motor. Itís going together now. Thatís how the rockers looked when I got the motor
Posted via Mobile Device
'69 Gmc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2018, 06:49 PM   #10
PGSigns
Senior Member
 
PGSigns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Hayes Va
Posts: 3,751
Re: Vortec head problem?

You are going to need to get the heads cut for guide plates and use regular rockers or get new rockers for the vortec head.
Jimmy
__________________
60 to 66 Chevy and GMC window decals
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=661131
Good friends, good food and a hotrod what else do you need?
1966 BBW long fleet Daily driver
1965 BBW short fleet Sold and going to a good home
1965 Suburban
2003 3500 Duramax
2005 Ultra Classic
PGSigns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2018, 08:15 PM   #11
'69 Gmc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Columbia TN
Posts: 74
Iím thinking about getting the Alex parts stainless valves. Then comp cams self aligning 1.52 magnum roller tip rockers, then measure for pushrods. Would the 1.52 roller tips be worth the $100 more than just getting replacements of what I have?

I almost got the xe274 cam at .490 lift. The 1.52 rockers would put me in between there at .486 with the xe268. Just not sure if thatís worth an extra $100
Posted via Mobile Device
'69 Gmc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2018, 09:41 PM   #12
garyd1961
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Henderson NC
Posts: 529
Re: Vortec head problem?

There is no way a factory vortec head is going to work with a 550 lift cam unless the bosses have been machined. I doubt it would work with a 490 lift either. Why don't you have the bosses machined down while you have them off?
garyd1961 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2018, 12:13 AM   #13
Captainfab
60-66 Nut

 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Coeur d'Alene, Idaho
Posts: 21,375
Re: Vortec head problem?

No machine work is needed if the correct springs, retainers and seals are used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by garyd1961 View Post
There is no way a factory vortec head is going to work with a 550 lift cam unless the bosses have been machined. I doubt it would work with a 490 lift either. Why don't you have the bosses machined down while you have them off?
__________________
Power Steering Box Adapter Plates For Sale HERE
Power Brake Booster Adapter Brackets For Sale '63-'66 HERE and '67-'72 HERE and '60-'62 HERE and "60-'62 with clutch HERE
Rear Disc Brake Brackets For Sale. Impala SS calipers HERE Camaro Calipers HERE D52 Calipers HERE 6 Lug HERE
Hydroboost Mounting Plates HERE
Captainfab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2018, 12:19 AM   #14
Captainfab
60-66 Nut

 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Coeur d'Alene, Idaho
Posts: 21,375
Re: Vortec head problem?

I'm wondering if the valves and or springs and retainers are not correct for self aligning rockers? For some reason the rockers were moving side to side and they are not supposed to. Sorry to say but you will need all new valves, rockers, springs and retainers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by '69 Gmc View Post
Iím thinking about getting the Alex parts stainless valves. Then comp cams self aligning 1.52 magnum roller tip rockers, then measure for pushrods. Would the 1.52 roller tips be worth the $100 more than just getting replacements of what I have?

I almost got the xe274 cam at .490 lift. The 1.52 rockers would put me in between there at .486 with the xe268. Just not sure if thatís worth an extra $100
Posted via Mobile Device
__________________
Power Steering Box Adapter Plates For Sale HERE
Power Brake Booster Adapter Brackets For Sale '63-'66 HERE and '67-'72 HERE and '60-'62 HERE and "60-'62 with clutch HERE
Rear Disc Brake Brackets For Sale. Impala SS calipers HERE Camaro Calipers HERE D52 Calipers HERE 6 Lug HERE
Hydroboost Mounting Plates HERE
Captainfab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2018, 06:06 PM   #15
PGSigns
Senior Member
 
PGSigns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Hayes Va
Posts: 3,751
Re: Vortec head problem?

You may want to take them to a good engine machine shop and have them checked over to see what has been done in the past and the overall condition. Decide what the goal is for the entire engine build and get what you need to get to that goal. That will tell you if the roller tip rockers are worth the money and if they are even needed.
Jimmy
__________________
60 to 66 Chevy and GMC window decals
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=661131
Good friends, good food and a hotrod what else do you need?
1966 BBW long fleet Daily driver
1965 BBW short fleet Sold and going to a good home
1965 Suburban
2003 3500 Duramax
2005 Ultra Classic
PGSigns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2018, 04:48 PM   #16
mattfranklin
Registered User
 
mattfranklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Moraga, CA
Posts: 471
Re: Vortec head problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by garyd1961 View Post
There is no way a factory vortec head is going to work with a 550 lift cam unless the bosses have been machined. I doubt it would work with a 490 lift either. Why don't you have the bosses machined down while you have them off?
x2

The guidance bounces around a little for Vortec heads, depending on stack up of manufacturing tolerances, but the top of the guide needs machining if you are putting in a cam. Especially a 0.550 lift cam. My eyes are as big as dinner plates right now.

If that's really the lift and those are really untouched heads I'm surprised more things were not bent at first startup. (EDIT: Oh. I just carefully read again that the PO bent a bunch of parts and blamed it on junk parts.)

CompCams and others make cheap DIY cutter tools for that if you're so inclined.
__________________
(Very) Slow-Going Build Thread: Stock 1970 Short Step with Stock 1970 LT-1

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=567340

Last edited by mattfranklin; 02-19-2018 at 05:13 PM.
mattfranklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2018, 04:50 PM   #17
mattfranklin
Registered User
 
mattfranklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Moraga, CA
Posts: 471
Re: Vortec head problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captainfab View Post
No machine work is needed if the correct springs, retainers and seals are used.
Interesting, so you're thinking +0.050 retainers or valve keepers/locks? I hadn't thought of that as a cure for this.
__________________
(Very) Slow-Going Build Thread: Stock 1970 Short Step with Stock 1970 LT-1

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=567340
mattfranklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2018, 09:59 PM   #18
'69 Gmc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Columbia TN
Posts: 74
The lift limit is definitely corrected without machining with the proper pieces. Iíve studied and measured the heads I have several times. The spring kit claims .550 lift, but as stated heads vary. All of mine will pull .600 before any contact. So even .550 lift leaves a .050 cushion. My cam I intend to run is .480 valve lift with 1.5 rockers. I ordered new stainless valves today. Just gotta decide what rockers to run.
Posted via Mobile Device
'69 Gmc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2018, 04:16 PM   #19
mattfranklin
Registered User
 
mattfranklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Moraga, CA
Posts: 471
Re: Vortec head problem?

1) Like a previous comment said, checking the push-rod length is a priority here.

2) The special retainer setup might change the geometry of how the rocker tip works on the top of the valve. Another thought was, do the stock rockers contact the retainers in any strange way through their range of motion? I didn't see any marks, so maybe not. Unless both the rockers and retainers have been changed since the PO had the problem.

3) I'm also wondering if these valves are new or if the PO beveled the tips to get rid of burrs and bad wear patterns. Clumsy hand beveling might explain that appearance. I've seen pros put on a bevel before grinding the valves, just to make sure the valve could be centered and straight in the grinder, but the bevel is normally minimal and very clean.
__________________
(Very) Slow-Going Build Thread: Stock 1970 Short Step with Stock 1970 LT-1

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=567340
mattfranklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2018, 04:33 PM   #20
mattfranklin
Registered User
 
mattfranklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Moraga, CA
Posts: 471
Re: Vortec head problem?

Do you notice any odd wear on the push-rod holes where the push-rods might have contacted the sides of the hole? These guys recommend opening up the diameter to 1/2".

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/148...ds-valve-lift/

EDIT: BTW, take their advice on spring seat machining with a grain of salt. They are switching to larger diameter dual springs and used the tool to do that. That work would ruin the spring locator boss for stock diameter springs.
__________________
(Very) Slow-Going Build Thread: Stock 1970 Short Step with Stock 1970 LT-1

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=567340

Last edited by mattfranklin; 02-20-2018 at 04:38 PM.
mattfranklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2018, 06:23 PM   #21
mattfranklin
Registered User
 
mattfranklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Moraga, CA
Posts: 471
Re: Vortec head problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by '69 Gmc View Post
The lift limit is definitely corrected without machining with the proper pieces. Iíve studied and measured the heads I have several times. The spring kit claims .550 lift, but as stated heads vary. All of mine will pull .600 before any contact. So even .550 lift leaves a .050 cushion. My cam I intend to run is .480 valve lift with 1.5 rockers. I ordered new stainless valves today. Just gotta decide what rockers to run.
Posted via Mobile Device
I see it now. Cool...
https://www.alexsparts.com/valve-spr...ssure-vsk4h50/
__________________
(Very) Slow-Going Build Thread: Stock 1970 Short Step with Stock 1970 LT-1

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=567340
mattfranklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2018, 08:42 PM   #22
'69 Gmc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Columbia TN
Posts: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattfranklin View Post
Do you notice any odd wear on the push-rod holes where the push-rods might have contacted the sides of the hole? These guys recommend opening up the diameter to 1/2".

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/148...ds-valve-lift/

EDIT: BTW, take their advice on spring seat machining with a grain of salt. They are switching to larger diameter dual springs and used the tool to do that. That work would ruin the spring locator boss for stock diameter springs.
Iíve have inspected the pushrod holes. No sign of wear/contact at all. I considered drilling them out to 1/2Ē. Seems most that do that is due to running 1.6 rockers. I donít think Iím going to.

Maybe the reason the old valve tips look like they do is the stock rockers didnít like the high spring pressure of those aftermarket springs? Or Im starting to think the cause is simply the PO just didnít have the valves set right. Seems like they were loose and the rockers walked around a little
Posted via Mobile Device
'69 Gmc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2018, 02:26 PM   #23
'69 Gmc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Columbia TN
Posts: 74
Whatís yalls opinion on rockers? Iíve measured the stock ones that need replaced due to things Iíve read that they arenít a true 1.5. All mine are close to 1.46. Anyway Iíd like to do full roller, not for 5hp at 6k but just smoother/better operation. I feel the roller tip are a waste, and might as well stay stock. This motor will in no way be a race motor. Just restoring the old truck and want a healthy motor in it. I will have my foot in it a lot lol. Itís hard to spend $300+ on rockers for a cruise in truck. I have no problem paying for quality, just feel like some options are $150 higher for the brand. But Iím scared of the $100 full roller rockers on eBay. Thoughts?
Posted via Mobile Device

Last edited by '69 Gmc; 02-22-2018 at 02:38 PM.
'69 Gmc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2018, 02:51 PM   #24
mattfranklin
Registered User
 
mattfranklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Moraga, CA
Posts: 471
Re: Vortec head problem?

I'm a fan of stock rockers, too.

Engine Masters (on Motor Trend On Demand and YouTube) did a nice video on rockers of various ratios and configurations. Freiburger offered opinions on quality of different brands of rockers in it. They compared stamped steel stock and rollers of 1.5 and 1.6. If I remember correctly, the stocks made plenty of power.
__________________
(Very) Slow-Going Build Thread: Stock 1970 Short Step with Stock 1970 LT-1

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=567340
mattfranklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2018, 03:14 PM   #25
mattfranklin
Registered User
 
mattfranklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Moraga, CA
Posts: 471
Re: Vortec head problem?

Found the link for the Engine Masters roller rocker episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvQHgt-tF7Y
__________________
(Very) Slow-Going Build Thread: Stock 1970 Short Step with Stock 1970 LT-1

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=567340
mattfranklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:10 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright 1997-2013 67-72chevytrucks.com