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Old 10-17-2017, 11:54 AM   #1
8man
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Frame question - S10 vs Camaro front clip

Ok, here is the situation. I have a S10 (S10) stock, bare rolling frame and I have a stock 48 frame that has had a 79 Firebird front clip put on it (FFC).

I have the cab from the 48 and a cab from a 54 (very rough, but the one she wants to go with).

I know the FFC frame will be quicker and easier to fit the 54 cab to, since it has been set up at one time with the 48. I can get the body parts mounted up quicker, and that would be a plus from the timing stand point.

I keep reading about the S10 frame and how it is the way to go.

So other than the time savings - yes time is important, but are there any other things to take into consideration? Put another way, is one better than the other?

I intend to build the other truck after I get the wife's truck done, so the frame I don't use on her truck will be used on the 48.
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Old 10-17-2017, 12:19 PM   #2
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Re: Frame question - S10 vs Camaro front clip

just a heads up that the 54 will be a different cat because there are a few things that only 54-55.1 have and the earlier ones don't.
if the frame with the Camaro clip is straight and square and isn't too wide for your fenders then I would start there because a bunch of stuff is already done. there are a lot of things to consider when doing a frame swap, like an S10, but the good thing is there is already a bunch done on here so you could get some questions answered. make sure you have all the tools and space and TIME set aside for a frame swap because after the swap you still have to deal with all the other stuff that you would normally have to do to the truck for restoration/hotrodding.
you need lots of space to put parts etc
you need to snap lots of pics of how things came apart, don't be afraid to take pics with measurements because, as good intentions as you have, it could be awhile before the project is complete and memories get blurred over time.
keep stuff on a memory stick because computers crash and then all your important stuff is gone
keep parts and fasteners together so you know what went where and how. box stuff up and label it so you can find it again
I know you have a rolling S10 frame but there will also be stuff you will need from a wrecker or parts supply so don't forget that when doing the budget
do a frame straightness and square check before committing to either frame. sometimes it could be easier to build a new frame from scratch than deal with conversion stuff or a bent frame that you didn't know was bent until investing a bunch of time, effort and cash into it.

post some pics of what you have and you will likely get more comments.
have you checked skymangs S10 conversion stuff? he has done a few, on a budget, so you can get an idea of what may be involved before pulling the trigger and also what you can reasonable scavenge from a donor S10

just my thoughts and opinions
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Old 10-17-2017, 12:43 PM   #3
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Re: Frame question - S10 vs Camaro front clip

I have read Skymangs S10 how to post. I have a shop at home for the project, so space is pretty good. I can get both frames in the shop side by side to work on both.

I have not checked the FFC for straight, but the S10 is good.

I know the 54 body mounts are body mounts are different, but what else? The front fenders from a AD were on it when I bought it, so I know they will fit. The bed is different, but since it is separate, that shouldn't matter.

The FFC may be wider at the front tires, so I need to check that. Is there a difference in driving?

She doesn't want the truck "low". Saw one last week at a car show and it was way too low for her. She wants it to look "like a little truck". So I'm thinking if the bumpers are at least 6" off the ground she will be fine. Will either frame accommodate that?
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Old 10-17-2017, 01:33 PM   #4
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Re: Frame question - S10 vs Camaro front clip

6in off the ground is still a little on the low side for these trucks. .I'm shooting for mine to be at 5 1/2"...and that's low...
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Old 10-17-2017, 01:35 PM   #5
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Re: Frame question - S10 vs Camaro front clip

maybe put some wheels on the frame and see what the track width will be compared to the fender width. it gets spendy when you have to buy custom offset wheels. always good to stick with something that is relatively easy to find, like stock wheels for an S10 or Camaro or whatever. the taller the truck sits off the ground the easier it will be to tuck the wheels under it and not have rubbing issues. it is best to have the suspension at full compression, at some point, and then turn the steering to see if the wheels will interfere as the steering goes from lock to lock.
if you need to have spacers or weird offsets to get the tires to fit under consider the changes that makes to the KPI, scrub radius and their effect on the steering etc of the steering geometry. you don't wanna do something and find out it makes the truck really twitchy to drive or the tires or front end parts wear out fast.
a quick explanation here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrub_radius


don't some guys also install the front suspension from a C10 under these trucks as well? like bolt in? maybe check the track width on some different donors? maybe try here?


http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w...l_measurements


suspension geometry

http://www.car-engineer.com/suspensi...icle-behavior/

or here

http://www.smartengineer.in/blog/cam...oe-in-toe-out/


have fun, post pics of what you have there and you will likely get some more feedback
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Old 10-17-2017, 01:42 PM   #6
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Re: Frame question - S10 vs Camaro front clip

I ran a 15x6 inch wheel with a 4 inch back spacing. I had a Nova clip on a AD, with the S10 you will need 1 inch spacers to move wheels out as the S10 is Narrow.
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Old 10-17-2017, 02:14 PM   #7
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Re: Frame question - S10 vs Camaro front clip

Thanks all.

I checked some dimensions and it looks like I need the bumper to be about 8 to 9" off the ground to be closer to stock. I'll check for tires and wheels on both, as this will affect overall height.

Thanks for the links. I've already started reading them. Will take a little longer to digest.

Still wondering if one frame would be better than the other for driving, or if there are other benefits to one over the other.

I will post up some pictures as soon as I get the FFC out of the barn and to the shop.
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Old 10-17-2017, 04:29 PM   #8
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Re: Frame question - S10 vs Camaro front clip

a 54 cab will use mount ears on the frame for the rear mount, a 48 will use shackles, so you will have to change that part. easy enough to build the mount ears, I have a picture somewhere of a 54 frame and I think I remember the mounts being level with the top of the frame.

the difference between an s10 frame and a FFC at that point is the body/bed/running boards mounts are already "done" (quoted because you will need to add the 54 ears) and there is about 10 foot of original 48 frame behind the clip. the s10 may be easier to find parts at the parts store for as the newest one is 14 years old, compared to 36 years old for the newest 2nd gen firebird
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Old 10-17-2017, 04:41 PM   #9
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Re: Frame question - S10 vs Camaro front clip

Good point on the parts. S10 should be easier to get parts for.

I guess if there isn't a better reason to go with the FFC, I will stick with the S10 and start moving forward.

Thanks all.
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Old 10-17-2017, 05:53 PM   #10
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Re: Frame question - S10 vs Camaro front clip

Well to me the S-10 frame goes under the cab that doesn't have it's Own frame now.

If you read through some of the S-10 swap builds it isn't rocket science and if it was it wouldn't be anywhere near as popular.

Add to that if your wife wants her truck a bit closer to stock height that is more easily done with the S-10 frame as you can figure out how high a stock S-10 sits and with a bit of simple math plan the finished ride height for the 54 and build your cab mounts accordingly. Most of the swapped rigs have several inches between the bottom of the cab and frame to get everything to fit up right. That also lets you have a full depth bed where the extra low truck boys end up raising the floors in their beds because the frame is up higher in the box.

Some of the guys can hopefully point out the better S-10 swap threads to study and give you the link for the cab mount diagrams that one of the members was kind enough to share with the group. That alone eases the pain a lot.
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Old 10-17-2017, 06:39 PM   #11
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Re: Frame question - S10 vs Camaro front clip

That is a Very good point.
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Old 10-18-2017, 10:20 AM   #12
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Re: Frame question - S10 vs Camaro front clip

Thank you all. I am going with the S10 frame under the 54. The height of the truck makes it easy.

So I've read Skymangs S10 write up, printed out the cab mount spec sheets and when time allows, I will start work.
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Old 10-18-2017, 11:48 AM   #13
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Re: Frame question - S10 vs Camaro front clip

mock it all up on the frame, using the skymangs specs, and see if you like the height, go from there.

post a few pics, you got us curious as to what you have to work with.
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Old 10-18-2017, 12:56 PM   #14
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Re: Frame question - S10 vs Camaro front clip

I am finishing up my first project, a 79 Cherokee Chief with a 5.3 Vortec, 4L60E, Vintage Air and some other electrical mods to make it "more modern". I am down to the headliner, sun visors, carpet and installing seats and seat belts, so when I get it finished I will start on this one.

I started a build thread called "Wife's 48" when I got the S10 with the 54 cab on it. That is when the focus turned to the 54. She liked the 5 window truck and that is why we got the 48, then she saw the windshield of the 54 and likes the "smooth curve" of that windshield. So the 54 on the S10 frame it is.

I had the body off the frame to inspect the frame, sat it back down until I can build a body dolly so I can move it around the shop easier. Then I'll start the frame work. As I understand, I will need to get the frame work done, put on tires and wheels and then set the body height. So I need to get that frame rebuilt.

Then there will be a LOT of body work on the 54, but the bed sides are really nice, so I got that going for me.

I am thinking about trying to get a little more leg room. At my height, it would be nice. So that will be a part of the work to be done.
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Old 10-18-2017, 02:01 PM   #15
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Re: Frame question - S10 vs Camaro front clip

do you have an engine lift? a simple cab lift attachment can be made out of some 2x6 lumber that will fit on the end of the engine lift and fit under the cab roofline with the doors off the cab. it really helps when working alone and/or with buddies because the lift can be moved easily and slowly and doesn't have fingers to get pinched or legs to get bumped while moving the cab. in other words it does the job easily without the need for help or inconvenience of friends plus the cab doesn't get dinged up from a sudden drop when a helper trips or bumps a leg on something while "in transit". the cab can be lifted slightly for shim installation etc while lining stuff up and when done with the attachment it can simply be taken apart and used for something else. it doesn't take up much space either.

see the link below. make sure to put some sort of stopper on the ends, at the outside width of the cab both sides, so the cab can't slide across and fall off the tool.

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=507323
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Old 10-18-2017, 02:23 PM   #16
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Re: Frame question - S10 vs Camaro front clip

Dsraven, thanks for the tip. I have a gantry crane in the shop and I lifted it with that. It has a 1 ton capacity, with electric hoist, so the lifting part is easy, it is finding the time right now to do what I want on it.
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Old 10-18-2017, 02:48 PM   #17
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Re: Frame question - S10 vs Camaro front clip

I agree with dsraven's suggestion of mocking it up before doing any other work on it.

One thing I figured out on the rigs I have subframed myself and the 51 Merc frame swap is that if you set the frame at it's stock ride height (with no engine that may mean taking the tires off to get it down low enough) you can figure out the final static ride height pretty close. I did that on my 51 Merc both with the subframe and then the Monte Carlo frame swap (stock frame cracked in the rear due to axle hitting the frame) later. The present owner has the car sitting a bit higher than I would have but that is how he likes it.

One thing I was pondering last night after reading another frame swap post on FB was that anytime you swap frames you positively need proof that you legally own that frame. It seems that in the last couple of years there are a lot of stripped roller S-10 chassis floating around ready for frame swaps and if you don't get proper paper work on the chassis you could end up with a stolen frame. I spotted an abandoned S-10 long be sitting beside the freeway last week and it may just have been out of gas or it may be dead and abandoned but I'd hate to be the guy who bought the frame out from under it from some guy who snagged it off the side of the road and stripped it. In this area that is all too likely.
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Old 10-18-2017, 03:02 PM   #18
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Re: Frame question - S10 vs Camaro front clip

Thanks Mr48. I have talked to the Texas motor vehicle task force that checks stolen vehicles. My problem is neither the frame nor the body has a VIN. So I'm going to have a bonded title, period. That is not a problem, but the folks at DMV don't like it because it means more work for them. I know because the lady I was talking to kept saying "you need to go buy a truck because this is more work for me."
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Old 10-18-2017, 05:40 PM   #19
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Re: Frame question - S10 vs Camaro front clip

I remember dealing with the Texas DMV in Waco when I built my T bucket in the 70's .

Just be ahead of the game and have all of your paperwork filled out, All of the receipts or other info you might need.

Go get a cheap 3 ring binder and some page savers and start putting your info in it.

Photos of the cab and other pieces as they were when you got them or as they sit now, photo of the frame as it sat when you got it. Any bill of sale you got with anything and the receipts for major parts. Most states just want to be able to see that you got the major parts legally. It's as much of a CYA thing as it is to satisfy them.

I'd just stick in copies of photos you might take and post here but maybe not as many. Old engine before being redone, fresh engine on stand after being redone along with machine shop and parts receipts. Yuppers that is where that engine came from. That sort of thing. They may never look at it close but you have the info right there in your hand if they do ask.

Unless she is that "you have to spend a dollar on what I want for every dollar you spend on your trucks" gal a guy who hides what he spent on a truck probably can't afford it anyhow.
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Old 10-19-2017, 10:19 AM   #20
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Re: Frame question - S10 vs Camaro front clip

Mr48, you sir are correct. She is a CPA and keeps our family books, so I'm not hiding anything. This is for her, so again she is happy to see it moving forward.

As for DMV stuff, thank you again. I will start that binder this weekend.

Now to find time to get finished with the Jeep so I can start this one. I wonder how many years this one will take....
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Old 10-19-2017, 09:06 PM   #21
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Re: Frame question - S10 vs Camaro front clip

First timer, I had a lot of luck with fitting the cab over the S10 frame using 2x4s and 4x4s cut up. It lets you set the height a bit before you even tack your first piece to the frame. I found I could only use the online plans as a guide when fitting the cab to the frame. I ended up making my own mounts in the end. A few people made comments on my build thread about height between the top of the frame and the bottom of the cab. I am now much further along than that so I can tell you how high the front fender is off the ground at the mount height I built for the 49 cab using stock S10 wheels and suspension.

Oh and my vote is the S10. I've found tons of useful info and parts for it. When you end up doing custom or aftermarket parts, looking up "S10 suspension thingo" is a lot easier to find than "Sort of firebird, but not, suspension thingo"
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Old 10-20-2017, 09:35 AM   #22
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Re: Frame question - S10 vs Camaro front clip

Thanks Gigamanx. Good ideas on setting the cab height. I will definitely go through your thread before I start.

I've also been through Skymangs S10 "how to" swap at least 3 times and Hussey's "Albert" thread a couple of times. I've started a "Bible" of sorts with selected passages from both threads.

So I think the first step is "rebuilding" the front end to make sure the height doesn't change later when the new parts get put in. Part of this entails figuring out what others have done and duplicating that for the ride height.

Thanks for the help.
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Old 11-19-2017, 07:54 PM   #23
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Re: Frame question - S10 vs Camaro front clip

8man,

Good luck with the S10 frame swap. It will definitely be an experience.

They say hind sight is 20-20, personally if I had to do mine over again, I would have stuck with the stock frame, boxed it, and went with a Corvette C-4 suspension. But where's the fun in taking the easy path . . . LOL

I'm in too deep to turn back now, and believe that I will like it once it's complete. But there are definitely trade offs, such as the loss of bed depth. But turning lemons to lemonade, I was able to add a gas filler door just under the bed deck.

Have fun with the build and good luck! I'll follow alone on your progress!
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Old 11-20-2017, 03:40 AM   #24
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Re: Frame question - S10 vs Camaro front clip

There is a local businesses that specializes in building AD trucks - any way the customer wants: stock frame, clipped frame, S10 frame. Having built dozens of them, the proprietor claims that stock frame is by far the best and easiest way to go, usually with a Mustang II front suspension. He claims the amount of time spent fabricating body mounts, running board mounts, tunneling the floor, etc etc. for an S10 is much greater than with a stock frame. And he should know, since he charges by the hour.
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Old 11-23-2017, 07:07 PM   #25
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Re: Frame question - S10 vs Camaro front clip

If you still have the body on the S10, take the shocks off and install solid links where they used to be. That way the S10 suspension will be kept at it's ride height. Adjust the new body to fit how you want from there. When done remove the links and install the shocks. Do related spring adjustments to get the lower control arms level after that (side to side level) and then do rear spring/shackle length adjustment to get rake angle after that.
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