Ordered the Holley Sniper

[Acorn]

Dont know anything about the Holley system or how the timing is programmed so I dont know if this will help ou or not. This is the timing spark advance table I started with on a bone stock L31 with GM tbi.

[PGSigns]

Thanks for the screen shot. It is a help, I'm not that far off of that now in some places and it has taken a while to get there. I am going to take a look at your table verses mine in the higher map values and see how they compare. I need to pull a a little more timing out in the 1600 to 2000 range above 80 kpa and your numbers will be a good reference. I have tarted to data log short runs in the areas I want to work on and that has made things easier. I have got some more time on mine and it is getting better every day. Some of that is the tuning changes I am making to match my combo and some is the system learning. You can see that the learned fuel table gets a little bigger each time I check it as the motor gets put through more of its paces. I have seen where some folks have a little trouble on how quick this thing opens up at tip over and it is a little touchy and mine is that way. I am going to make an arm extension for mine to reduce it some. Holley used to include the arm they make in the throttle body kits but not in this one. To give you an idea of the sensitivity at cruise 55 mph is about 8% on the tps 65 mph is about 13% and with the short throttle arm pulling all 4 holes open and the 72 cable throttle pedal setup it is a little hard to hold dead on say 60. A pedal setup with a different ratio would be good for this setup.
Jimmy

[PGSigns]

Well the progress continues on the map and it is getting better. I still have way to much fuel pressure and it is having an effect on the systems ability to tune. Looks like a few others may be having an issue with the internal regulators and I have been posting in a thread on the holley forums. Looks like my stealth 340 in my Boyd welding tank may be bigger than the holley system can deal with. They actually recommend I stop driving it. I think they have a problem with the regulators as I am on number 2 and have 90 psi of fuel pressure at idle.
Jimmy

[calvin78612]

Did you change the intake to the super victor ? If so which one, 2913 ? How does perform in every day driving ? I have not ordered an intake yet and have been researching single/dual planes until my head hurts ! Mine will be a daily so I am looking for the best combo I can find. Any input would be great.

[PGSigns]

Super victor is on order. 2913 is the one I have coming. I ordered it locally so it takes a few days but I get better prices. Have not gotten any feedback from Holley on the fuel pressure issue and plan to work that first and then do the intake. The tune is getting pretty good with the duel plane and I continue to tweek it. If I make a change to the fuel pressure all that will need to relearn. I want to make sure I get it running well with the current combo before making the change so I can see what the real changes are.
Jimmy

[jjzepplin]

Won't all this tweaking go out the door when you change intakes?

[PGSigns]

Some will but the basic tune wont be that far off as it is built around the chamber shape and the plug location of the vortec heads. I will be able to put just a bit more timing in it under acceleration and pull a little fuel if it works like I think. This will be to get rid of the extra added to make up for the really long runners on a few cylinders. It is close now and I am going to make a few fine adjustments tonight. I did make an extension tonight to lengthen the throttle arm to get rid of the touchy throttle with my combo.
Jimmy

[PGSigns]

Made a few fine adjustment to the map last night and it runs good. I also made a throttle arm extension to get rid of the touchy throttle and it worked better than I expected. Its only about 5/8" change but that did it. The added leverage improved the feel and the added length improved the control. Will run this tank of fuel out and check the mileage and see how it runs with some learning time on the fuel side. Will do some data logging after the learned percentage goes up to at least 75% and fine tune from there.
Jimmy

[Smittee]

Originally Posted by PGSigns

Made a few fine adjustment to the map last night and it runs good. I also made a throttle arm extension to get rid of the touchy throttle and it worked better than I expected. Its only about 5/8" change but that did it. The added leverage improved the feel and the added length improved the control. Will run this tank of fuel out and check the mileage and see how it runs with some learning time on the fuel side. Will do some data logging after the learned percentage goes up to at least 75% and fine tune from there.
Jimmy

Man, I really thought I might want to go with this type of unit from Holley but I am not sure I could handle all of the tuning you have had to do! Is it that you are REALLY picky about your setup or would an average Joe have to go through the same procedures?
I just want to drive a rather mild ZZ4 setup for a daily driver. Nothing exotic. Opinions? PLEASE of course.

[PGSigns]

In a way Yes I AM REALLY that picky. Some of it is I drag raced for about 30 years and just like stuff to be as good as I can get it and some of it is my engine combo and the need to make sure there is no detonation going on. My truck gets 50 miles a day just to work and back and then what ever else if I need to run errands. So making sure the timing and fuel are right on makes a difference to me. With no knock sensor I have to tune it till I don't hear any detonation and then go a degree more just in case. Then there is the feed back to a friend of mine who owns the local race engine shop who has been getting more EFI request for some of the street engine stuff he does. I get all my parts through him and he helps me on the cost some so I save a little over the Jegs/Summit prices. We talk about the maps and what needs to get tweeked and then talk about the results. This is also why I went with timing control and pulled my E-curve out. He wanted to see what it was capable of. The E-curve worked really well and I could have left it in and just tuned the fuel side. Many of the tuning in the software is the same as you would do with a distributor or a carb. You are just doing it through the software. If you understand how and when the weights, springs and vacuum advance affect the timing you can easily set the up in the timing map. Then you can make improvements to the timing that are not going to happen with mechanical means to make things even better. On the fuel side the adjustments are no different than jetting and tuning the accelerator pump and power valve with finer control like you have with timing. I think your ZZ4 with an open plenum intake and a sniper would make a good combo and not be that hard to tune. I have a bunch of pictures to add to this thread as soon as I can get them resized and I can also do screen shots of the timing table.
Jimmy

[Smittee]

Originally Posted by PGSigns

In a way Yes I AM REALLY that picky. Some of it is I drag raced for about 30 years and just like stuff to be as good as I can get it and some of it is my engine combo and the need to make sure there is no detonation going on. My truck gets 50 miles a day just to work and back and then what ever else if I need to run errands. So making sure the timing and fuel are right on makes a difference to me. With no knock sensor I have to tune it till I don't hear any detonation and then go a degree more just in case. Then there is the feed back to a friend of mine who owns the local race engine shop who has been getting more EFI request for some of the street engine stuff he does. I get all my parts through him and he helps me on the cost some so I save a little over the Jegs/Summit prices. We talk about the maps and what needs to get tweeked and then talk about the results. This is also why I went with timing control and pulled my E-curve out. He wanted to see what it was capable of. The E-curve worked really well and I could have left it in and just tuned the fuel side. Many of the tuning in the software is the same as you would do with a distributor or a carb. You are just doing it through the software. If you understand how and when the weights, springs and vacuum advance affect the timing you can easily set the up in the timing map. Then you can make improvements to the timing that are not going to happen with mechanical means to make things even better. On the fuel side the adjustments are no different than jetting and tuning the accelerator pump and power valve with finer control like you have with timing. I think your ZZ4 with an open plenum intake and a sniper would make a good combo and not be that hard to tune. I have a bunch of pictures to add to this thread as soon as I can get them resized and I can also do screen shots of the timing table.
Jimmy

Thanks Jimmy. Maybe it won't be so bad then! Just to be clear-being picky IS a good thing. But a guy has t be knowledgable on the subject matter to be picky. Sure sounds like you have that knowledge-me, not so much on this part of it. Not to say that I cannot learn though.

[PGSigns]

We quit running carbs on the drag cars about 2003 and went to mechanical fuel injection and alcohol. So I got to the point I was not as good with a carb as I had been but still not bad. I had to learn the efi stuff when I had a motor done for a Harley and the guy put a thunder max on it. He could load caned tunes in it but he was lost afterwards. They are a lot more of a pain as the software is not as good. Never was happy with that motor so I have done the last few and like working on the stone age thumpers. Down load the software and just take a look around and go through the manual and read the sections and look at the software as you go and you will get a feel for it. Lots there to look at. Here is a list of terms I found when researching this idea of switching over that helps put a lot of the fuel adjustment menus in perspective of carb terms. AE stands for acceleration enrichment.
Jimmy

• EFI AE In Carburetion Terms:
"AE vs TPS Rate of Change" = carburetor accelerator pump
"AE Correction vs TPS" = carburetor accelerator pump cam (shape)
"AE vs MAP Rate of Change" = carburetor power valve function
"MAP AE Time vs Coolant" (Decay) = carburetor shooter size
"AE TPS vs Coolant Temp" = carburetor choke effect (in terms of AE)
"MAP AE vs Coolant Temp" = carburetor choke effect (in terms of AE)
"AE vs TPS RoC Blanking" = carburetor accelerator pump lever adjustment (feeler gauge)
"AE vs MAP RoC Blanking" = carburetor idle transfer slot/circuit exposure (idle & off idle)

"Coolant Temperature Enrichment %" & "A/F Ratio Offset" = primary carburetor choke functions
"Target Idle Speed" & "IAC Parked Position" = carburetor choke fast idle cam & idle kickdown functions

[PGSigns]

Here are some of the pictures from the install.
Jimmy

[PGSigns]

Well the duel plane experiment has run its course and on to the super Victor. I swapped the manifold last night and finished up the truck this morning. We had a discussion on the timing map and what to put in it and for a first shot at it we decided to build a timing map off the timing that was in the e-curve and the added timing we had it it for vacuum plus a bit we felt it would tolerate. We also pulled some fuel out that was in it to help the long runner issues. There is a good bit more timing in the areas that the duel plane had issues around 1700 and map pressures above 70. Took a 15 mile ride to get a quick feel for the change and it is different in both response and feel. Will run a tank of fuel through it to let it learn and get through some varying conditions to see what I think.
Jimmy

[PGSigns]

Well I have about a 100 miles on the new setup and it is a lot better. The super victor was close to an exact match on the ports and the short pretty even runners seem to be working much better than the duel plane. The combination overall is a much better match for efi. With the way the sniper uses the four injectors I am feeding two cylinders per barrel with very close to the same runner length. It seems to lock on to the target afr quicker and the learning on the system looks to have picked up. I am going to look at the learned fuel tonight. So from what I have seen with this project is that the efi works better with intakes that are one raised to keep the heat down and that are as close to the same runner length with a short straight shot at the intake valve. So I would go to an open plenum intake if you plan to go with one of these type of units over a duel plane. The improvement is very evident when you have run both. So my next project may be a cold air setup to see how that works.
Jimmy

[PGSigns]

Took the time to do all the math and build a timing table based on 14 degrees initial, 34 total and a vacuum advance with 12 degrees starting at 6" and all in by 13" of manifold vacuum. I was slowly working my way that direction but took a bit to decide on what vacuum profile I wanted based on some data logging to see what vacuum the engine was making with my setup. So far so good. The engine runs well and the system is pulling some of the learned fuel out and mileage is going up. Doing the mechanical side of the table goes pretty quick but the vacuum part of it took a little while. I made a table that converted the inches of vacuum to kpa in the same increments as the holley timing table so I could ad those values to the mechanical values to build the table. Took about two hours. I decided to do a write up on how to take what is working in your regular distributor and turn that into a timing table that reproduces it. I will post it once I am done. I think that is the hardest part of the software setup if you want to do timing control.
Jimmy

[PGSigns]

Now that I am pretty much done with working on this and have a pretty solid system here is what I learned.
Chose an intake with the shortest most equal length runners. This really helps the fuel distribution.
An air gap intake reduces the throttle body temp a good bit. This helps keep manifold air temp down.
The clamps holley sends for the included O2 sensor mount are not real good and will break long before getting the mount tight. Weld in a bung if you can.
You must do a fuel pressure check before you try running the engine. There have been a good bit of problems with the holley regulators. The screen was a problem on mine after replacing the regulator and removing it dropped the fuel pressure almost 20psi.
The throttle arm is short and real quick. This make the throttle very touchy. I added a bracket to make it 3/4" longer and that helped a lot.
The bracket for the TV cable is thick and the cable wont lock in it with out some filing. Holley thins the throttle cable bracket but not the TV cable bracket.
The cable for the hand held is short and comes out the back of the unit. The cable on the hand held is long and needs to be run through the fire wall. I told the Holley guys that this is a problem. Would be much nicer to be able to unplug the hand held under the dash and if you get the USB cable for live tuning to be able to plug it in in side the vehicle.
If you decide you are done and want to unplug the hand held you need to figure a way to cover the cable end under the hood to keep it clean as there is not a cap for it.
You have to use the software. This thing is self learning but not self programming.
The timing table the stock/mild cam profile builds when you select it on setup looks like a full race profile with full timing in by 1700 at all but the wide open value.
The blanking values on all the enrichment tables are set at 15 as a default. This number is way high and values from 4 to 7 seem to be work pretty well.
Seems like a big list but it's not real bad. I hope this helps.
Jimmy

[Trackman101]

Originally Posted by PGSigns

Here are some of the pictures from the install.
Jimmy

Did you get the fuel pressure issue resolved?
Is it still running fat at idle?

[PGSigns]

Holley sent me a new regulator and I put that in and it went from pegging the gauge to 90 psi. Then we decided to pull the regulator and get rid of the screen and the fuel pressure went to 65psi. That is right where it needed to be. Told the system it was 65 in the software when I got it sorted. The setup is still a little fat at idle but looks like it is getting better as it fine tunes the learned fuel. It was better as soon as we swapped the intake. I am going to sit down tomorrow with my buddy at the race engine shop and do some tuning in the base AFR table. We did ad some fuel with the other setup to help the long runner cylinders and need to make sure we have cleaned up all those areas and start fine tune the cruise.
Jimmy

[jjzepplin]

This sure sounds like a crud ton of work!

[PGSigns]

Well yes and no. I decided to do timing control even though I had a MSD E-curve in the truck that worked fine. I also decided to not change the intake when I started this even though I knew it was not the best option for this setup. We had a lot of dyno data on the GM 602,603 and 604 crate engines and the improvement the open plenum intake made in the vortec head motors and also knew the really long passages of the intake I had gave me some problems with getting a good timing curve in it when it when the engine went in the truck new. So I did a good bit of work just to see if those same issues would affect the efi. They did so we put the new intake on. Since then it has not been much and issue and just some time spent fine tuning like you would with a non EFI system. I am just using software and not hardware to make the changes. If I had not decided to do timing control and did the intake swap when I did the install I would have been done a long time ago. Most of the work would have been getting the enrichment values set to match my motor and the truck. About the same thing you have to do with a carb.
Jimmy