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Old 10-10-2018, 04:31 PM   #1
dme922
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Contaminated metal??

I have been having an issue with the paint on my bed sides since about two months after i got it back from the shop. It looks like little bumps in the paint and the shop originally told me it was solvent pop and it would buff out. They buffed it and it came back shortly after. Then they decided to sand down into the paint to see how deep it was. I think he sanded it all down to the epoxy primer and repainted both sides and once again it came back within a few weeks. Now they are telling me that after sand a few spots down to the metal that the metal is contaminated with rust. Only way to fix it is with new bed sides. The bed is in nearly perfect shape no holes or anything and to see this rust he is talking about you have to use a scope. Has anyone heard of such a thing?
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Old 10-10-2018, 04:33 PM   #2
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Re: Contaminated metal??

Solvent pop doesn't typically buff out "cleanly" as there will be varying depths of the solvent bubbles. It also normally shows up in the first 24 hours but that doesn't mean it won't appear after some time in the hot sun. Was the defect the second time around little craters or did it look like small circles of delamination? May be a reaction of the epoxy to a rust conversion application that wasn't neutralized properly...

If they are using a desiccant dryer on the air line in their booth, old desiccant can't break down and cause similar looking defects.
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Last edited by MP&C; 10-10-2018 at 04:40 PM.
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Old 10-10-2018, 04:39 PM   #3
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Re: Contaminated metal??

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Solvent pop doesn't typically buff out "cleanly" as there will be varying depths of the solvent bubbles.
Have you ever heard of the metal being contaminated with rust that is all through the metal even though the bed is solid
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Old 10-10-2018, 04:50 PM   #4
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Re: Contaminated metal??

Did they do the epoxy primer and any prep associated with it or did you?
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Old 10-10-2018, 04:52 PM   #5
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Re: Contaminated metal??

They did everything
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Old 10-10-2018, 07:35 PM   #6
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Re: Contaminated metal??

Pictures would really help.
If done correctly, the basic steps are sand blast, epoxy prime, rust and metal repair, epoxy prime repairs, body filler, high build urethane primer then paint.

How about you ask them what they did, in step by step process and compare what they say against what I have lined out.

What you're describing as a defect is hard to say until you can find out the steps and process they used. I'm willing to bet that they didn't follow the steps I outlined because if they had, it wouldn't have resulted in a failure, because this is a time proven process.
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Old 10-11-2018, 07:14 AM   #7
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Re: Contaminated metal??

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The bed is in nearly perfect shape no holes or anything and to see this rust he is talking about you have to use a scope. Has anyone heard of such a thing?

Did they show you said rust through the magical mystery scope? By using the methods laid out by Footstomper above, it shouldn't matter about the miniscule rust areas (that can't be seen by the naked eye) as the media blasting would resolve the rust issue(s) described that can't be seen. If the media blasting didn't remove the rust, since they have this "scope" that checks for rust, then why did they apply primer? Seems to me based on what we've heard thus far, someone is feeding you a line to cover work that was sub par. I guess blaming it on the sheet metal suggests it wasn't their fault in their eyes, but if they and not you did all the prep, why didn't they check with the "scope" before priming to insure they had addressed all the rust. I think the answer speaks for itself. There is no scope, they are making excuses as rework should be on them.
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Old 10-11-2018, 07:48 AM   #8
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Re: Contaminated metal??

I did look through this scope and saw what looks like rust. I have talked to several restoration shops and they say the same as you all have. Its just a way for them to put the monkey on my back.
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Old 10-11-2018, 10:30 AM   #9
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Re: Contaminated metal??

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I did look through this scope and saw what looks like rust. I have talked to several restoration shops and they say the same as you all have. Its just a way for them to put the monkey on my back.
I have never seen or heard of such a device in all my years being in the coatings business! pffft!

Epoxy primer has the ability to encapsoluate small bits of rust that are even visibile to the naked eye, so using a device to see microscopic bits is full on fraudulent.

Many coatings require a minimum of SSPC SP2 or SSPC SP3 which is mechincal removal of rust by hand or by machine. This is not even as good as sand blasting!

Here is a full description of the different standards of metal prep. Take a look!

http://blastal.com/index_files/definitions.html#sp1

I'm curious to know if they used a chemical metal stripping or prep like paint stripper, acid, vinegar, or witches potion that is causing the failure??? So many failures are caused by these short cuts.
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Old 10-11-2018, 11:21 PM   #10
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Re: Contaminated metal??

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Originally Posted by dme922 View Post
I did look through this scope and saw what looks like rust. I have talked to several restoration shops and they say the same as you all have. Its just a way for them to put the monkey on my back.

Again, they showed that they had the means with their scope to check for rust prior to priming. Their fix.
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Old 10-12-2018, 01:29 PM   #11
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Re: Contaminated metal??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foot Stomper View Post
I have never seen or heard of such a device in all my years being in the coatings business! pffft!

Epoxy primer has the ability to encapsoluate small bits of rust that are even visibile to the naked eye, so using a device to see microscopic bits is full on fraudulent.

Many coatings require a minimum of SSPC SP2 or SSPC SP3 which is mechincal removal of rust by hand or by machine. This is not even as good as sand blasting!

Here is a full description of the different standards of metal prep. Take a look!

http://blastal.com/index_files/definitions.html#sp1

I'm curious to know if they used a chemical metal stripping or prep like paint stripper, acid, vinegar, or witches potion that is causing the failure??? So many failures are caused by these short cuts.
I had one of these "scopes" when I was a paint rep.



I bought it on my way out to a "paint failure" I was called about. I laugh when I think of how good I got at detecting causes for paint issues. It's mind blowing how good you get seeing something over and over and over. I would be on the phone with a guy telling him I would be by next week to check it out hanging up the phone KNOWING EXACTLY what it was that caused the issue.

The day I got this call, there was a "contaminate" in the paint that was making these white specks. I stopped at Radio Shack and bought that "scope" and headed over there. The effected car (a 260Z as I remember) was out front so before I even spoke with anyone I got my scope and checked it out. Yep, it was a black car (as I remember) with tiny white specks in it. With the scope I could see that these specks had a very sharp edge on them, that told me a LOT. If it was IN the paint they would have been softened by the solvents. So I was on my way. I was led into the paint mixing room showing me all the horrible contaminated paint, looked it over, nothing, nothing in the clear, nothing in the paint left in the can, nothing in the hardener I had batch numbers memorized on the recalls! LOL But looked at all of them, nothing. Then the guy tells me they appeared after it was mixed.....um, yeah. I walked over to the booth, an old funky cross draft, and inside there it was, the paint was peeling off the booth doors! LOLOLOL The white paint chipped off the booth doors right at the filters and blew onto the new paint and clear! LOLOLOLOL Funny stuff, I gave him a free gallon of clear and hardner to make him happy and left him to figure out what he was going to do.

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Old 10-12-2018, 01:35 PM   #12
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Re: Contaminated metal??

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Originally Posted by dme922 View Post
I did look through this scope and saw what looks like rust. I have talked to several restoration shops and they say the same as you all have. Its just a way for them to put the monkey on my back.
What everyone said here, that is BS, if the primer was applied properly it would BURY tiny specks of rust. Rust needs moisture and air to form, if it is trapped under urethane or epoxy primer it's going to stay there. This is realistically with tiny specks like that, obviously not with flakes or something. But with something that tiny, crap, that is going to be under the primer on about every friggin car out at a Goodguys show, give me a break.

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Old 10-14-2018, 06:16 PM   #13
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Re: Contaminated metal??

I want to say this before anything I'm hungry and trying to get done to cook myself some supper so I only skimmed this post. I know that normally means I'm in trouble but here are my guesses. The shop either used stripper and didn't get the panels clean causing the "pop" bubbles OR they may have used a metal prep under the epoxy primer. Those two don't play nice together. If a person were to use the metal prep etching primer instead of epoxy primer would be in order.if this were a thing, [after stripping to bare metal you cant stop rust] this page would have thousands of more people using it I would think. Jim
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Old 10-19-2018, 12:20 PM   #14
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Re: Contaminated metal??

If they did all the work from metal to finish paint then it is there fault no mater what went wrong. They could have followed all the steps right and then someone could have touched it before paint with sweaty hands or just the oils on someones hands. There are so many things that can cause problems you could guess all day, but they are the ones who should have followed the steps and cleaned properly.
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Old 10-22-2018, 01:32 AM   #15
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Re: Contaminated metal??

I didn't read your first post well before, it came back after repainting in a few weeks? HUH? That sounds like some pretty screwed up stuff. I am having a hard time believing what he is saying big time. Epoxy primer over CRAP will be buried for years, how in the world could it come thru in a few months?


Brian
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Old 10-22-2018, 05:09 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
I didn't read your first post well before, it came back after repainting in a few weeks? HUH? That sounds like some pretty screwed up stuff. I am having a hard time believing what he is saying big time. Epoxy primer over CRAP will be buried for years, how in the world could it come thru in a few months?


Brian
I was pretty sure this was all bs that the body shop was feeding me. Thanks for all the help.
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