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Old 09-09-2018, 09:37 PM   #1
88Stanger
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Major brake issues, help please

I have been fighting a brake issue for far to long. I have little to no pressure at the rear, here is what i have and here is what i have tried:

1969 C10 complete rebuild from ground up with LS conversion
all new brake lines installed, front to rear
Disc conversion on Front and Rear
new POL Wilwood power booster, dual master cylinder and Disc to Disc prop valve

I am trying to bleed the brakes and the rear bleeders have only a small amount of fluid coming out, with little to no pressure. This is after an hour of bleeding the brakes the good ole way with buddy on the brakes and me bleeding.
The master cylinder does have the plug installed where the warning light goes
no leaks to date

i have checked the distance the rod is extending from the booster when the brakes are depressed fully. there is full travel on the brake pedal also

i did pre-bleed the master cylinder also with a bleeder kit

So thats where i am. I am just frustrated. i have searched and tried what i know of so far other than connecting the rear line directly to the master cylinder and seeing what pressure i have then. i do have an adjustable prop. valve from SSBC valve that i also plan to try after the direct connection.
I am open to any and all ideas at this point.
Thanks in advance for any help.
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Old 09-09-2018, 11:00 PM   #2
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Re: Major brake issues, help please

If it were mine, I would disconnect the brake line going to the junction at the back and see if fluid comes out strong when your buddy presses on the pedal. If you're getting fluid there, keep working your way toward the rear brakes and see how the flow is at the brake line going into the rear caliper.

It may not be the fix, but it will give you information to help diagnose the problem.
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Old 09-10-2018, 12:07 AM   #3
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Re: Major brake issues, help please

Did you change the pedal ratio?
Does your prop valve have a reset button in the front like this one (black cap)?
https://leedbrakes.com/i-19296666-pr...isc-brass.html
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Old 09-10-2018, 09:45 AM   #4
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Re: Major brake issues, help please

Quote:
Originally Posted by saxart View Post
If it were mine, I would disconnect the brake line going to the junction at the back and see if fluid comes out strong when your buddy presses on the pedal. If you're getting fluid there, keep working your way toward the rear brakes and see how the flow is at the brake line going into the rear caliper.

It may not be the fix, but it will give you information to help diagnose the problem.
2X this. You may have a bad hose at the axle. I would start at the top of the hose. Then you have divided the system in half. Depending on whether you have pressure or not decides which direction you go next. Either way Saxart is spot on. Trace back to see where the first place pressure is present.
In my world the hose is more likely to be defective from the factory than the rest of your new components. That being said I have had several new master cylinders not work out of the box. Mostly due to debris in the bore preventing the seals from trapping fluid to make pressure.

Good luck
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Old 09-10-2018, 09:52 AM   #5
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Re: Major brake issues, help please

x3 for a collapsed or degraded rear axle hose (just a guess though!)
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Old 09-10-2018, 11:45 AM   #6
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Re: Major brake issues, help please

I thank each of you for the responses!! I really appreciate it. So frustrating.

So with anticipation of this, I ordered a brake pressure kit. I completely agree with find where the pressure is first, then find where it is not and addressed it then.
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Old 09-10-2018, 02:40 PM   #7
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Re: Major brake issues, help please

Quote:
Originally Posted by saxart View Post
If it were mine, I would disconnect the brake line going to the junction at the back and see if fluid comes out strong when your buddy presses on the pedal. If you're getting fluid there, keep working your way toward the rear brakes and see how the flow is at the brake line going into the rear caliper.

It may not be the fix, but it will give you information to help diagnose the problem.
great advise
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Old 09-10-2018, 08:16 PM   #8
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Re: Major brake issues, help please

All good suggestions from others...lots of very knowledgeable folk here....

I suspect the proportioning valve has sensed the bleed process, tripped over and blocked off the rear brake circuit...

Did you use the tool to stop the prop valve from tripping over? Like

https://www.classicindustries.com/pr...2.html#reviews

If the rear hard line before the flex hose has little to no pressure, the prop valve has tripped over...

Remove all switches from the prop valve and master cylinder and jump on the brake pedal once real hard...the trip valve will usually reset itself.

Also, try bleeding the system using a pressure bleed canister tool with and adapter to fit the top of the master cyl...

Constantly pushing the pedal only aerates the fluid and causes more issues.

Finally...hope you are not using DOT 5 fluid...its is silicon based and not suited to most aftermarket systems...stick with DOT 3 or DOT 4....

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Old 09-30-2018, 06:44 PM   #9
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Re: Major brake issues, help please

Ok, well i decided to order all new hard brake lines from classic industries, pre-bent for my truck.
Got them in and went ahead and installed them. Damn, its nice to use stuff already pre-bent.
So now here is what i have:
from POL i ordered their Power booster, Wilwood 1" piston master cylinder and disc to disc prop valve. I bench bled the Willwood master and got all the air out of it. Then installed the brake bleed tool into the prop valve (Like the one AussieinNC posted). I did need to remove the piston and re-install it to a position that is correct and allow the tool to be installed correctly, into the v notch as it should.
Then i installed all the brake lines from front to rear, front and rear systems including across the rear axle. The only items left not changed out is the rubber hose from the frame to the axle, which is brand new, but i checked it out and it appears to be working fine, not blocked.
After all this, i vacuum bled as much as i could, then had a buddy over and do the you push the brake, hold it and i open the bleeder. We did this and still at the rear, little to no pressure and the pedal does not go all the way to the floor, like the fronts do.
Now im really frustrated!!
So, i started the pressure test from the rear towards the front. I still was not getting the pressure i should, so i worked my way forward, still nothing.
So, what to do now. I took off the master cylinder with the prop valve attached and thought, i want to do a test, basically a pressure/bleed attempt with the prop valve attached, and dang, lots of air came out, so i kept bleeding it until all the air was done.

Could the air in the prop valve cause the issue?

This weekend im going to re-install the master and prop valve after i bled them both and give it a try.
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Old 09-30-2018, 08:32 PM   #10
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Re: Major brake issues, help please

Is the master cylinder returning all the way back? I have seen it many times the pushrod is too long, not allowing the piston to return all the way, it can stop the flow of fluid into the body of master cylinder bore.
Bench bleeding it and all is good, on the car no flow.
Check that you have free play when the pedal is at rest.
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Old 09-30-2018, 08:48 PM   #11
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Re: Major brake issues, help please

Chris_oz
I measured the distance your asking about and used some clay to check distance and it's all checking out.
Out of just raw frustration I order the adjustable Wilwood prop valve and bracket that goes together.
Thanks for the thought, any others?
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Old 10-01-2018, 07:43 AM   #12
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Re: Major brake issues, help please

Quote:
Originally Posted by 88Stanger View Post

Could the air in the prop valve cause the issue?

This weekend im going to re-install the master and prop valve after i bled them both and give it a try.
Yes absolutely yes
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Old 10-08-2018, 07:37 PM   #13
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Re: Major brake issues, help please

Ok, got new Wilwood adjustable prop valve. Bled the master cylinder, then attached the prop valve and bled it. I then attached the master to the brake booster, then blocked off the front port on the master cylinder and added a pressure gauge to the rear port. Pressed brakes and get a reading of about 1000lbs, reversed this and got the same. Then i for giggles, i started the truck (LSMotor) and get about 12" of vacuum at idle without it being tuned. Then i hit the brakes and get about 1500lbs of pressure on each, it did help to rev the motor a bit to get the vacuum up a bit, again just for giggles.
So now i installed all new brakes lines, front and rear. Checked for any leaks, none.
Now, i go to the passenger side rear to do the brake bleed, having buddy to the pumping of the brakes, i turn the brake bleeders and some fluid comes out, not alot, but some and not under much pressure, but he gets nothing at the pedal. This is different than the fronts. If i do the front brakes, the pedal moves towards the floor as i turn the bleeder screw and bleed the front brakes, but this does not happen to the rear. We continue to bleed the rear and still nothing, no pressure at brakes shoes. I unscrewed the banjo fitting from the left side and asked my buddy to press the brakes pedal and tell me if he feels the pedal move, he said he did a bit.
Bascially, if i smash the rear brakes to the floor, i an still rotate the rear wheels if in neutral.
Any other ideas? Damn i just want to drive the damn thing!!!!
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Old 10-09-2018, 12:30 AM   #14
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Re: Major brake issues, help please

If you have fluid coming out of the hoses at the rear calipers when they are disconnected but none or very little coming out of the rear caliper bleed screw I think there is a problem with the rear calipers. Manufacturing defect?? I'd take them apart and verify all is good with the fluid path.
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Old 10-09-2018, 09:48 AM   #15
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Re: Major brake issues, help please

Have you adjusted the rear calipers so that the pads are almost touching the rotors? If you try to bleed them without the resistance of the pad to rotors, you could just be cycling the pistons in the calipers. I'm not intimately familiar with rear discs, but I've seen where not being properly adjusted was an issue. The fronts don't use a parking brake for the take-up due to wear, like the rears do.
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Old 10-10-2018, 12:01 AM   #16
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Re: Major brake issues, help please

Steevee, I did not, but out of just dire want, i just ordered the Wilwood rear conversion and front disc brakes. Always wanted them, so now is a good time to "justify" it to myself. Lol
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Old 10-10-2018, 04:56 PM   #17
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Wink Re: Major brake issues, help please

The emergency brakes have to be adjusted up on rear disc brakes. You will get weak fluid flow and you will be able to turn rear brakes with pedal pushed. Don't ask me how I know this 3 day disaster. I can't tell you what to do but I can tell you what not to do!
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Old 10-10-2018, 06:54 PM   #18
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Unhappy Re: Major brake issues, help please

I can't speak for the Wilwood brakes but the CPP rear disc brakes suck! I hate I ever spent the money on them. I never have gotten them to work as good as my old drums did. I have spent weeks on them adjusting them and bleeding them. They are the worst upgrade I ever done.
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Old 10-12-2018, 01:32 AM   #19
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Re: Major brake issues, help please

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Originally Posted by OL SKOOL View Post
The emergency brakes have to be adjusted up on rear disc brakes. You will get weak fluid flow and you will be able to turn rear brakes with pedal pushed. Don't ask me how I know this 3 day disaster. I can't tell you what to do but I can tell you what not to do!
Well that unfortunately sounds like it could be the issue, as we have done everything else. But, I did buy all new 2 piston wildwood for rear and front. That way I'm all Wilwood.
Thanks for all the input. Maybe it will help others
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Old 10-12-2018, 02:34 AM   #20
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Re: Major brake issues, help please

Which Wilwood adjustable prop valve and how did you plumb it? Would really like to see a clear picture of the plumbing.
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Old 10-12-2018, 07:23 AM   #21
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Re: Major brake issues, help please

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_oz View Post
Is the master cylinder returning all the way back? I have seen it many times the pushrod is too long, not allowing the piston to return all the way, it can stop the flow of fluid into the body of master cylinder bore.
Bench bleeding it and all is good, on the car no flow.
Check that you have free play when the pedal is at rest.
This is another great point , the majority of aftermarket brake systems have this issue , and it is hard to diagnose , kicked my butt for a year on a chevelle
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Old 10-12-2018, 10:54 AM   #22
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Re: Major brake issues, help please

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Which Wilwood adjustable prop valve and how did you plumb it? Would really like to see a clear picture of the plumbing.
I bought stock replacement lines from classic industries. The master and adjustabke prop valve and booster are the all black kit offered by POL. They plumb together with supplied lines. Then I installed the stock lines for a 1969 short fleet side. My 2" drop spindles and such came from CPP.
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Old 10-12-2018, 11:20 AM   #23
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Thumbs up Re: Major brake issues, help please

That's a clean looking proportioning valve. I like it!
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Old 10-12-2018, 11:38 AM   #24
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Re: Major brake issues, help please

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That's a clean looking proportioning valve. I like it!
Thank you sir. Been a long ride, but almost done. Fully rebuilt LS motor is just waiting to go to tuner, but need brakes 1st. Lol these just showed up for the front replacements, rear shows up today.
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Old 10-12-2018, 11:40 AM   #25
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Re: Major brake issues, help please

>>from Chris_oz
Is the master cylinder returning all the way back? <<

>>from 88Stanger
I have checked the distance the rod is extending from the booster when the brakes are depressed fully.<<

I tried to reread all the posts and I'm not sure how the booster pin length was checked. The retracted pin length is what is important and must be checked.
Loosen the MC and space it away from the Booster with a couple of thick washers or anything that will temporarily separate them. Try bleeding again.
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