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05-03-2011, 07:16 PM | #1 |
Roto Reuter thats the name...
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Darien, NY
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Brake warning light help.
I am trying to figure out why my brake warning light won't work. I understand it should come on when the truck is in the "On" or "Start" position, and go off when running (as long as there are no leaks or differential pressure in the system). When I turn the key it won't come on at all.
I have a new Painless wiring harness installed. I tested the warning light by putting a 12V power source to the wire at the proportioning (combination) valve and it does light up on the dash. Sounds like the problem might be the switch at the prop valve. Does this sound right or should I be looking at something else?
__________________
~ Dan My 70 K10 SWB build:http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=782232 My 71 SWB build:http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=651394 1970 SWB Fleet K10 4X4, 5.3L LM7, 4L60E, Dakota Digital RTX, Vintage Air, Ididit tilt 1971 SWB Fleet C10 - Original SWB Arizona truck, new custom restoration project "Kick out your motor and drive while you're still alive - kick it out!" - Heart 1977 |
05-03-2011, 11:57 PM | #2 |
Msgt USAF Ret
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Kalamazoo, Michigan
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Re: Brake warning light help.
You are a lucky guy because the wire on the prop valve is a ground wire and the light comes on when this wire grounds due to low brake fluid or pedal pressure letting the prop switch complete to ground. You can test the light by grounding this wire and turning the key on.
Normally the light will light up when the key is turned to the start position and go off when released unless the wire to the prop valve is grounded. There should be a ground wire going to the key switch for this purpose. I think the temperature light works the same way. Check and see if you have a black wire going to the key switch. If not then the key switch may ground internally for those two wires. They are light brown (brake ) and dark green (temp).
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VetteVet metallic green 67 stepside 74 corvette convertible 1965 Harley sportster 1995 Harley wide glide Growing old is hell, but it beats the alternative. Last edited by VetteVet; 05-04-2011 at 12:05 AM. |
05-04-2011, 02:01 PM | #3 |
Roto Reuter thats the name...
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Darien, NY
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Re: Brake warning light help.
Too funny. OK I grounded the brake warning light and it does come on when the key is in the "On" position. Right now I can't test it in the "Start" position because I'm in the middle of a carb overhaul. When hooked up to the prop valve switch, the warning light does NOT come on in the "On" position. Are the Temp & Brake lights supposed to come on in only the "Start" position, or in the "On" and "Start" positions, and then go off when running?
I checked for a black (ground) wire at the ignition switch. I do not have one. The GM type ignition switch connection was prewired by Painless. This all started as a result of replacing my harness with the Painless harness. I am not able to get the Temp light or Brake light working. With this kit there is a Temp Gauge wire (Green #921). There is also a separate Temp light wire (Green #983). Both wires come out in the engine compartment. I tested the temp gauge by putting the Green #921 wire to ground and turning on the key. The needle pegged hot, which is what I would expect. I tested the temp light by putting the Green wire #983 to ground and turning key to "On". The light worked. I also tested the Brake light by putting the wire (Tan #975) to ground and turning the key to "On". This also worked. I called Painless today to see how the two temp wires were supposed to be hooked up. They told me they are both intended to be connected to the temp sender. However when I connect them together and put them on the sender, the light does not come on in the "On" position. The same goes for the brake light; once connected to the prop valve switch it does not light in the "On" position (again unless they are supposed to only light during "Start", which I can't check right now). According to Painless they told me that their harness is not designed to go through the test light mode during cranking. The only way to make these lights work would be to connect them separately to a 12v source that only comes on during cranking, which would be starter solenoid wire (purple #919) at the ign switch. It seems that if I did this these lights would only serve a function of lighting during cranking and would not provide any protection indication as they were designed. I'm confused on this because the Temp light wire (Green #983) and Brake light wire (Tan #975) go into the ignition switch as well as the instrument panel. Wouldn't you think if they went into the switch it would be to provide a momentary ground path for them to light during cranking? The other wire for the Temp Gauge (Green #921) does not go through the ign switch, but I would expect that it wouldn't; just like the stock wiring diagram shows. I was thinking that maybe my prop valve was shot and not working, but that might not be the case if the Painless harness is not designed to test the lights during start up. What can I do to check this out? Any help is greatly appreciated.
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~ Dan My 70 K10 SWB build:http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=782232 My 71 SWB build:http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=651394 1970 SWB Fleet K10 4X4, 5.3L LM7, 4L60E, Dakota Digital RTX, Vintage Air, Ididit tilt 1971 SWB Fleet C10 - Original SWB Arizona truck, new custom restoration project "Kick out your motor and drive while you're still alive - kick it out!" - Heart 1977 |
05-04-2011, 04:21 PM | #4 | |
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Re: Brake warning light help.
The temp and Brake warning lights are only supposed to come on during cranking as a bulb check function (and of course during over heat and brake fault) the fact that painless does not incorporate a bulb check feature in their wiring IMO is crap and could possibly open them up to liability, because the only way you could possibly know that the bulb is burned out is with the bulb check feature and without it you could loose your brake system and never know because the bulb is burned out. The ignition switch would also have to support this function they are typically grounded through the housing. If you wanted to you could also install a relay to mimic this function with the following hook up.
#30 to ground #85 to ground #86 tap into purple wire from ignition switch at NSS #87 to tan and green wires to cluster (brake and temp) That will ground out the green and tan wires during cranking.
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1965 GMC shortwide big window 1969 Chevy C20 long (for now) 2005 Silverado 2500HD Crew Cab Quote:
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05-04-2011, 06:01 PM | #5 |
its all about the +6 inches
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Hilliard Ohio
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Re: Brake warning light help.
did you post and delete a similar question yesterday?
As mentioned, the lights are only tested in the crank or start position, not in the run position. The reason you didn't mess anything up when you put power to that wire is becouse the positive wire turns to a ground when there is no power to it. So you powered the ground wire, and it grounded through the power wire. Funny how that works. If you want to get this sorted out while the carb is off, disconnect the purple wire on the starter, or even unplug the neutral safety switch and turn the as much as you want (assuming mechanical fuel pump). One other note, if you have a guage instermant panel (as opposed to a dummy ligh unit) then the temp light isn't supposed to come on at all... as wired by GM. |
05-04-2011, 06:05 PM | #6 | |
Msgt USAF Ret
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Kalamazoo, Michigan
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Re: Brake warning light help.
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Quote:
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VetteVet metallic green 67 stepside 74 corvette convertible 1965 Harley sportster 1995 Harley wide glide Growing old is hell, but it beats the alternative. |
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05-04-2011, 10:02 PM | #7 |
Roto Reuter thats the name...
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Darien, NY
Posts: 1,848
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Re: Brake warning light help.
Thanks guys. All your responses are well taken and understood. I appreciate them all.
Longhorn Man: No I did not post and delete a similar question. I was very surprised when the guy at Painless said their harness was not wired to test the lights. I will get my multimeter and check the resistance of the brake warning light wire to switch and temp light wire to switch with key in start position. Thanks again, I will keep you posted on my progress.
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~ Dan My 70 K10 SWB build:http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=782232 My 71 SWB build:http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=651394 1970 SWB Fleet K10 4X4, 5.3L LM7, 4L60E, Dakota Digital RTX, Vintage Air, Ididit tilt 1971 SWB Fleet C10 - Original SWB Arizona truck, new custom restoration project "Kick out your motor and drive while you're still alive - kick it out!" - Heart 1977 |
05-05-2011, 10:52 PM | #8 |
its all about the +6 inches
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Hilliard Ohio
Posts: 2,693
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Re: Brake warning light help.
i coulda sworn i had just answered the same Q. Oh well, just becouse I remember something doesn't make it true.
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05-08-2011, 10:29 PM | #9 |
Roto Reuter thats the name...
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Darien, NY
Posts: 1,848
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Re: Brake warning light help.
OK here's the latest on my brake light and temp light. I finished my carb overhaul this weekend and now able to start the truck. I found out that the brake warning light and temp light DO NOT come on when ignition is in Start position.
Both lights tested fine as mentioned before. I did not use my multimeter to check the resistance across each of these wires back to the ignition switch because I got everything done this weekend and was able to actually start the truck. I thought for sure these lights would come on when cranking. Maybe the guy at Painless is right, that this harness really is not wired that way. Another thing I noticed was that with both the temp wires (gauge wire and light wire) connected to the sender, the temp light will come on as the truck warms up. I watched the temp light and it would slowly start to light up and would be dim. The more the truck warmed up, the brighter that light got until the temperature reached the normal operating temperature. Once warmed up the temp light is on full bright. I know these lights work, but they just don't come on when cranking. Any more suggestions?
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~ Dan My 70 K10 SWB build:http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=782232 My 71 SWB build:http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=651394 1970 SWB Fleet K10 4X4, 5.3L LM7, 4L60E, Dakota Digital RTX, Vintage Air, Ididit tilt 1971 SWB Fleet C10 - Original SWB Arizona truck, new custom restoration project "Kick out your motor and drive while you're still alive - kick it out!" - Heart 1977 |
05-08-2011, 11:48 PM | #10 | |
Msgt USAF Ret
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Kalamazoo, Michigan
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Re: Brake warning light help.
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Quote:
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VetteVet metallic green 67 stepside 74 corvette convertible 1965 Harley sportster 1995 Harley wide glide Growing old is hell, but it beats the alternative. |
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05-09-2011, 09:30 PM | #11 |
Roto Reuter thats the name...
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Darien, NY
Posts: 1,848
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Re: Brake warning light help.
Still working on this problem with no luck yet. Thanks for all your help.
Do you have the ignition switch mounted so that it is grounded to the frame and back to the battery negative As I mentioned before the ignition switch was prewired by Painless and I just plugged it into my ignition switch. I did however install a new switch. Is there something I should do differently to ensure it is grounded to the frame and back to battery? If it helps I did install several ground straps throughout the truck. One from engine to frame; one from frame to inner passenger fender; one from frame to bed; one from cab to frame. The only one I haven't completed is engine to firewall. You have got to check the continuity between the key switch body and the terminals where the brake light and the temp light connect to the key switch when the key is turned to start. Otherwise you won't know if the two lights are grounding. It wouldn't make any sense to run the wires to the key and then to the console if the key switch wasn't supposed to ground the wires. They would have run them directly to the console. Yes I will do this. I thought I did it today, but I didn't check it right. Sorry, I'm not really electrically savvy. I will try again tomorrow. My question is just like Longhorn Man said " if you have a gauge dash why do you have a temp light?". You can have both but you have to have two senders and the pins in the console plug have to be rewired. I'm not sure! I attached pictures of my gauge panel with the brake light and temp light grounded so you could see it. I have the seven gauge panel. It also has brake light and temp light at the fuel gauge. I thought this was how this panel was configured. My pins in the console plug have both gauge and light going to it. Let me know.
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~ Dan My 70 K10 SWB build:http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=782232 My 71 SWB build:http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=651394 1970 SWB Fleet K10 4X4, 5.3L LM7, 4L60E, Dakota Digital RTX, Vintage Air, Ididit tilt 1971 SWB Fleet C10 - Original SWB Arizona truck, new custom restoration project "Kick out your motor and drive while you're still alive - kick it out!" - Heart 1977 |
05-12-2011, 01:08 PM | #12 |
Roto Reuter thats the name...
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Darien, NY
Posts: 1,848
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Re: Brake warning light help.
Hey guys I'm still working on this light issue. I talked to someone different at Painless today and he said the opposite. He told me the key switch is wired to do a bulb check when in start position. This makes more sense because both the temp light and brake warning light wires go into the switch.
As VetteVet suggested, I did go back and check to see if there was a ground between the switch body and wire terminal on back of switch when cranking. It did not ground. Does this now sound like it would be the switch? You mentioned that the switch has to be internally configured to ground during cranking. By the way I replaced my old switch and key cylinder with a new switch. Is it possible that some are not configured to internally ground that way? BTW the switch is installed and mounted into the dash and not hanging, so it should be grounded. Also please take a look at my previous thread where I included pictures. My 7-gauge panel has temp gauge, battery and oil (besides speedometer and fuel). It also has the temp light and brake warning light in with the fuel gauge. Isn't this the standard configuration for this style instrument panel?
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~ Dan My 70 K10 SWB build:http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=782232 My 71 SWB build:http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=651394 1970 SWB Fleet K10 4X4, 5.3L LM7, 4L60E, Dakota Digital RTX, Vintage Air, Ididit tilt 1971 SWB Fleet C10 - Original SWB Arizona truck, new custom restoration project "Kick out your motor and drive while you're still alive - kick it out!" - Heart 1977 |
05-12-2011, 02:53 PM | #13 | |
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Re: Brake warning light help.
Yes all switches are not created equal some do not ground when cranking. Below is a screen shot of the Cole Hersey ignition switch listings the far right column shows the functions for each position or the switch could be bad.
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1965 GMC shortwide big window 1969 Chevy C20 long (for now) 2005 Silverado 2500HD Crew Cab Quote:
Last edited by fixit-p; 05-12-2011 at 02:54 PM. |
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05-12-2011, 07:00 PM | #14 |
Roto Reuter thats the name...
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Darien, NY
Posts: 1,848
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Re: Brake warning light help.
This may be my problem. I bought a reproduction switch and not an OEM. I probably should have spent a little more on the original replacement. I tried to look up the switches that you show but had no luck. Where do you suggest I get it from?
Also any comment on the instrument cluster? What is the standard configuration for a panel with gauges? I was being questioned why I would have a temp light if I had a temp gauge. I thought my instrument panel was typical, but maybe not!
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~ Dan My 70 K10 SWB build:http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=782232 My 71 SWB build:http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=651394 1970 SWB Fleet K10 4X4, 5.3L LM7, 4L60E, Dakota Digital RTX, Vintage Air, Ididit tilt 1971 SWB Fleet C10 - Original SWB Arizona truck, new custom restoration project "Kick out your motor and drive while you're still alive - kick it out!" - Heart 1977 |
05-12-2011, 08:36 PM | #15 | |
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Re: Brake warning light help.
Have you tried O'Reilly's http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/de...2018&ppt=C0039
If you have a gauge cluster the temp light while it is still there physically it is inoperable, you could use it but as mentioned you'll need to use a different sending unit to keep the two systems isolated from one another also the sending units are different for light and gauge. As mentioned the cluster plug is pinned differently for the 2 systems.
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1965 GMC shortwide big window 1969 Chevy C20 long (for now) 2005 Silverado 2500HD Crew Cab Quote:
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05-12-2011, 10:27 PM | #16 | ||
Roto Reuter thats the name...
Join Date: Feb 2010
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Re: Brake warning light help.
Quote:
Quote:
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~ Dan My 70 K10 SWB build:http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=782232 My 71 SWB build:http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=651394 1970 SWB Fleet K10 4X4, 5.3L LM7, 4L60E, Dakota Digital RTX, Vintage Air, Ididit tilt 1971 SWB Fleet C10 - Original SWB Arizona truck, new custom restoration project "Kick out your motor and drive while you're still alive - kick it out!" - Heart 1977 |
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05-13-2011, 12:35 AM | #17 | ||
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Re: Brake warning light help.
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Quote:
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1965 GMC shortwide big window 1969 Chevy C20 long (for now) 2005 Silverado 2500HD Crew Cab Quote:
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05-13-2011, 06:04 PM | #18 |
its all about the +6 inches
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Hilliard Ohio
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Re: Brake warning light help.
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05-23-2011, 10:24 PM | #19 |
Roto Reuter thats the name...
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Darien, NY
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Re: Brake warning light help.
Holy Switch!!! What a lesson. You guys are right that all switches are not created equal. My problem has been solved and determined to be the aftermarket switch that I bought. Once I replaced this reproduction ignition switch with an original AC Delco switch, my problems were solved. My temp and brake warning lights now work when the switch is in the start position. Thanks for all your help and patience. You guys are awesome.
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~ Dan My 70 K10 SWB build:http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=782232 My 71 SWB build:http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=651394 1970 SWB Fleet K10 4X4, 5.3L LM7, 4L60E, Dakota Digital RTX, Vintage Air, Ididit tilt 1971 SWB Fleet C10 - Original SWB Arizona truck, new custom restoration project "Kick out your motor and drive while you're still alive - kick it out!" - Heart 1977 |
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