Camaro vs. Mustang II IFS overall cost after its all done

[daveshilling]

Hey Gents,

While trying to decide what direction to go with Lucky the trucky, I've been pouring over Camaro/Firebird sub vs. Mustang II. The one thing I haven't found is how much it costs realistically to put in the Camaro subframe?

Can anyone share what they put into their Camaro front so I (and future searchers) can compare?


I like the Camaro option for the tighter lock to lock steering, instant drop and the beefier componentry designed for a heavier vehicle than a mustang...although I'm sure TCI has factored that in somewhat.

The problem is that I don't know where to stumble upon a camaro subframe in Northern CA, and on Craigslist guys are selling them for $500. I dont have space to buy an entire camaro, steal the parts, and let the rest sit until its picked up for scrap. So a $500 start seems not great for a rusty subframe.


Regarding the choice itself, I don't have the welding skills to install the Camaro necessarily, but I have tack-welding skills and a Miller 211 and professional welders in the city who would like some side cash I'm sure.

[idbeast]

I've got $250 in my subframe and I bought a Performance on Line Tubular Control arm set $999 which is 15% off right now.https://www.performanceonline.com/19...USPENSION-KIT/

[ChuckDriver]

If you want a true price comparison you need to factor in the cost of replacing EVERYTHING on the Camaro clip, I mean all wheel bearings, seal, rotors, calipers, control arm bushings, ball joints, tie rod ends, idler arm, steering box, brake pads, and hoses!

It really adds ups when you think of all that will need to be replaced 30-40 year old subframe versus a new everything included MII IFS. And you also need to consider having to cut the front of the frame off causing issues with the wheel centering in the wheel well and core support and bumper mounts.

[59chev]

I paid $150 for my subframe. There is alot of fabrication required for the core support and bumper mounts as ChuckDriver has stated. I plan on completely rebuilding the subframe when I get to that point, so we will see what it adds up to for cost. Even it it comes out even, I still like the overall look of the Camaro better with the way the steering column lines up with the box, and the overall heavier duty look. I fitted up and tacked the subframe then had a professional stick weld it solid.

[mr48chev]

The big problem with a subframe swap is that you end up trimming a lot of front end sheet metal to make it fit if you want the truck to be low. Add to that, most of the time your stock radiator/core support no longer fits and you have to rework that or change to something else. Then we can discuss mounting the front bumper.

The only thing I know of that might fit with no inner fender trimming is Jag XJ but then again you run into the rebuild the part you just bought out of the wrecking yard or off Craigslist thing unless it is real low mile or just rebuilt.

If you aren't bent on having tube control arms take a look at the unit for TF trucks that Industrial chassis sells (no Steve doesn't give me a kick back I just really like what he builds and the fact that it uses real truck donor parts. My internet isn't working worth a hoot so I can't come up with a link right now.

I've subframed two rigs of my own, My 48 and my old 51 Merc coupe. I put around 100 K on each with the subframes in place and my wife drove the 51 as her daily driver for over a year. They drive great if the front end is set up right but there are just better ways to hang independent suspension under our trucks now. When I did mine the choice was stock MII cut out of a MII or Pinto donor ( I still have one out in the parts pile) or Nova/Camaro subframe. Now guys do it because they think they will come out cheap compared to other setups or because someone suggested it. It's still "that's what they did in the early 80" technology.

The advantage of an after market independent crossmember or Jag or even Crown Vic crossmember is that you don't have to fight getting sheet metal, core support and bumper to fit. Maybe some trimming on the inner fenders to clear the control arms and that's it.

As I mentioned Crown Vic, they do fit the TF trucks as far as attaching them. The big issue on them on any and almost all swaps is that wheel mount surface to wheel mount surface they are really wide and your choice of wheels is very limited and the wheels most of us like on early trucks end up sticking out of the fenders as far as the monster mudder tires on a redneck's 4x4.

[daveshilling]

Originally Posted by ChuckDriver

If you want a true price comparison you need to factor in the cost of replacing EVERYTHING on the Camaro clip, I mean all wheel bearings, seal, rotors, calipers, control arm bushings, ball joints, tie rod ends, idler arm, steering box, brake pads, and hoses!

It really adds ups when you think of all that will need to be replaced 30-40 year old subframe versus a new everything included MII IFS. And you also need to consider having to cut the front of the frame off causing issues with the wheel centering in the wheel well and core support and bumper mounts.

YES!! Thats exactly what I'm looking for.. the TOTAL cost of using that clip vs just buying a clip with all new bits.

I'm fortunate to have the documentation left from people who have done the swap many times.. between No Limit and the HAMB thread, there is some good detail there.

[daveshilling]

Originally Posted by mr48chev

If you aren't bent on having tube control arms take a look at the unit for TF trucks that Industrial chassis sells (no Steve doesn't give me a kick back I just really like what he builds and the fact that it uses real truck donor parts. My internet isn't working worth a hoot so I can't come up with a link right now.

I went to his website and didnt see anything there for a TF... was it the Dakota based setup?

[PDW HOTRODS]

https://www.performanceonline.com/19...-Polyurethane/
You can look into kits like this. Where in Northern California are you?

[daveshilling]

Originally Posted by PDW HOTRODS

https://www.performanceonline.com/19...-Polyurethane/
You can look into kits like this. Where in Northern California are you?

Oh man, why didn't I think of that? Rebuild kit is $500 so thats a good start, then add brake components.

I'm in the Sacramento area.

[dsraven]

let me start by saying that I am not in any way trying to discourage you from building a task force truck. I am just trying to make you aware of a few things so you don't get dug in and find out this isn't what you thought it was when you started.

I always recommend doing a complete study of the truck and write down everything that you will need to fix in the future or at the time of disassembly. don't lie to yourself or overlook things for the sake of getting started because that is how projects get put aside or sold after a bunch of time and money has been spent already. there have been lots of domestic disputes caused by projects that get out of hand in the finance department or even the "time spent in the garage" department. some guys simply get in over their head, their abilities, finances or time, and soon the project loses it's appeal. ensure you have a partner (if equipped) who is onboard with the plan and financial outlay before you start. again, be honest. if you do get started I recommend to take lots of pics of the disassembly and also keep fasteners and like parts together. that way you can see how stuff is supposed to fit when you put it all back together, sometimes years later. screw the fasteners back into the holes they came out of and put the parts in a labeled box.

if this is your first task force truck and you haven't done a thorough look see yet, then start by looking in the usual spots. the hinge pillars, floor and vent areas. usually the trucks have a plugged inner cowl vent that leads to rain or snow melt water being allowed to build up in the cowl vents to the point where it runs out the vent onto the floor of the cab. this rusts the floor, hinge pillars, inner cowl vents, front cab mounts, fender rear lower mounts and step areas pretty bad. also the area above the windshield (eyebrow) is prone to becoming a mouse nesting area and consequently rusting out so a good look and prod in that area is in order as well as the area just above the rain gutter all the way around the cab roof. the rear cab corners, inner and outer. the rear cab mounts and the floor area near there, the front fender headlight areas, the rear lower area of the front fenders, the brace that runs vertically up the back side of the front fenders, the lower door skin areas, inner and outer, as well as the lower hinge mount support inside the doors are prone to cracking. door hinges, door latches, door glass, tracking, regulators and channel seals. vent window seals and hardware. these are a few of the cab areas to check.

after that, and before you spend money on upgrades, you need to decide what you want from the truck in the end. how you will use the truck, what ground clearance you want, what stance (ride height and rake angle) you want and what capabilities you will want from the truck. if you are looking for a truck to haul stuff and not bottom out or drag the bumpers, to be a truck first, then that will narrow down the entries to the pro's list and add to the entries on the cons list for some of the stuff available. for a high horsepower unit you will need to look at rear axle and possibly rear suspension upgrades as well as possibly some frame modifications. a low truck will also possibly require a "C" notch of the frame above the rear axle as well as possibly some suspension work to lower the rear of the unit.

if you want a truck that handles like a newer truck and has some load handling capabilities but also has some upgradable components for braking and handling in the future then look into a truck front end, like, say a dodge Dakota front clip swap or possibly a newer c10 member install or look into an ifs unit that is capable of handling the load and braking required of a truck. ask the questions on here for guys that have done that particular swap. you need to check the track width of the donor as well as the frame width and where the steering box or rack is located so it can connect to the column. you will need a welder friend who is schooled in the do's and don'ts of frame fabrication and modification for this and probably need more than a single visit. you will need a few shop tools like engine lift, chain and attachments. floor jack, jack stands and misc blocking. large clamps, "c" clamp vice grips, magnets, long and short levels (digital are better for accuracy), string line (or laser for accuracy), grinders with grinding and cut off discs, related safety equipment like face shields, particulate respirators, coveralls, gloves etc. large and small squares, a quality tape measure and other measuring tools. you will need to first ensure the truck frame you are working with is straight and square so that means a clean bare frame is best. you may need to fab a cab lifter attachment for the engine lift to ease that job. check on here for recommendations. you will then need a place to put the cab and sheet metal parts that is out of the way. you will also need a new steering column or will need to modify the old steering column and add components to connect the dots between the old column and the steering box/rack. you will need to fabricate engine mounts, figure out exhaust routing, rad support mounts, inner fender fitment, frame extensions and mods for front bumper fitment, park brake mechanism attachments, clutch and brake pedal linkages, brake line routing etc. you may also want to install a dual system brake master cylinder at the same time because most guys want disc brakes up front so a new master cylinder is required. a power brake upgrade is also common. some are firewall mounted and some are stock frame mounted style. you may also want to refresh the front end components like mentioned earlier. this can add up quickly. you may want to invest in an assembly manual for the truck which will give frame dimensions etc so that you can get the new frame clip set up for the proper rad support height and dimension from the firewall face as well as the proper dimensions for the front bumper extensions. when you start to disassemble things you will likely find a few rotten areas that will also need attention. broken bolts etc, so you will likely need a few tools to remove those items. center punches, drills, bits, easy outs, torch, taps and/or die set etc.

if you want a truck that drives and handles like a car then put a car front end or an aftermarket ifs in. that will usually diminish the capabilities for the load hauling and ground clearance etc. there are a number of donor vehicles like Camaro/firebird/nova, crown vic, volare etc and there are lots of them driving around out there. you will need to know things like the ride height associated with the frame clip welded even with or below the stock frame. they will all have the same related issues as the above mentioned truck frame clip. an important thing to do is to get measurements and angles from the donor clip with the entire weight of the original vehicle as it would be driving around. write these down and save them for use when you are mocking up the clip to your frame. you can even use threaded rod in place of the shocks while the clip is still in the donor car, so the suspension stays at the intended ride height for the donor vehicle. then, when it is being mocked up into your truck, you can keep the angles the same as when the clip was loaded with the weight of the original car.

if you want to use the existing frame, front to rear, and add an independent front suspension then some of the same principles still apply. truck capabilities or car capabilities. some components are tougher than others. look at and compare the metal thickness of the cross members and control arms. the gusseting of corners, the quality of welds, the size and quality of the fasteners and steering/suspension components. the size and quality of the brake components. the cost of upgrades you want or may need in the future. check out a write up from Heidts, or contact them for a web link, that explains the requirements and geometry of independent front suspension. you should know what each angle does and how each component interacts to affect the steering. a simple thing like the wrong pivot point for an inner tie rod end can cause a headache from bump steer for example. look at how the control arm pivots are mounted and gusstted. some have the old style mustang II "T" bolts that hold the upper control arm pivots onto the frame on a horizontal surface. these rely on friction to stop the upper control arm from moving across the frame surface if the suspension goes over a pot hole or the like. the newer style has the upper control arm pivot shaft mounted to an vertical plate and uses shims to adjust the control arm for alignment. this system is stronger, in my opinion. with that said there are a lot of the older style driving around with no problems. look at an assembled unit if possible and check how things like the ball joint boots fit and seal. some simply sit on the ball joint housing and as the suspension moves the boot becomes unsealed and allows road dirt and water to enter. some have boots that fit tightly and seal well.
some of the ifs units are bolt on cross members that have the upper and lower control arm pivots already welded in place. you don't have to guess when doing mock up and assembly or hope you have it right when welding. that is all figured out before you get it so you get the frame work done, leveled and at the rake angle you want, then bolt in the cross member at level side to side and fore to aft and then assemble the rest of the parts. check Scotts hotrod parts for a visual on what I mean. there are others that make similar bolt in units. again, ask the direct questions on here for the manufacturer you like the most. guys will usually be brutally honest. sometimes the cost of a weld in seems quite a bit cheaper but if you factor in a welder paid by the hour while setting up components to a tenth of a degree that can add up quickly and the spread of costs between the two gets less. that is as long as you have the skills and tools to do the assembly of a bolt in unit by youself.
ok, end of rant. order the birthday cake, you probably have been here long enough to have another birthday coming right up. haha.

[daveshilling]

Originally Posted by dsraven

let me start by saying that I am not in any way trying to discourage you from building a task force truck. I am just trying to make you aware of a few things so you don't get dug in and find out this isn't what you thought it was when you started.

Don't worry, that wont happen. I've driven the Jackalope built by Delmo himself since 2013, and it's without a doubt the best looking truck on the planet.

Originally Posted by dsraven

I always recommend doing a complete study of the truck and write down everything that you will need to fix in the future or at the time of disassembly. don't lie to yourself or overlook things for the sake of getting started because that is how projects get put aside or sold after a bunch of time and money has been spent already. there have been lots of domestic disputes caused by projects that get out of hand in the finance department or even the "time spent in the garage" department. some guys simply get in over their head, their abilities, finances or time, and soon the project loses it's appeal. ensure you have a partner (if equipped) who is onboard with the plan and financial outlay before you start. again, be honest. if you do get started I recommend to take lots of pics of the disassembly and also keep fasteners and like parts together. that way you can see how stuff is supposed to fit when you put it all back together, sometimes years later. screw the fasteners back into the holes they came out of and put the parts in a labeled box.

My wifey is cool with me doing whatever I want in the garage and spending as much as I want, so that's covered. I'm a huge fan of tapping and cleaning up holes and hardware and putting it back in the hole it came from.

Originally Posted by dsraven

if this is your first task force truck and you haven't done a thorough look see yet, then start by looking in the usual spots. the hinge pillars, floor and vent areas. usually the trucks have a plugged inner cowl vent that leads to rain or snow melt water being allowed to build up in the cowl vents to the point where it runs out the vent onto the floor of the cab. this rusts the floor, hinge pillars, inner cowl vents, front cab mounts, fender rear lower mounts and step areas pretty bad. also the area above the windshield (eyebrow) is prone to becoming a mouse nesting area and consequently rusting out so a good look and prod in that area is in order as well as the area just above the rain gutter all the way around the cab roof. the rear cab corners, inner and outer. the rear cab mounts and the floor area near there, the front fender headlight areas, the rear lower area of the front fenders, the brace that runs vertically up the back side of the front fenders, the lower door skin areas, inner and outer, as well as the lower hinge mount support inside the doors are prone to cracking. door hinges, door latches, door glass, tracking, regulators and channel seals. vent window seals and hardware. these are a few of the cab areas to check.

I have 1 bad corner, 1 bad hinge pocket, some small spots in the fenders. Not bad for it's age! plenty of bumps and dents. I'm going to basically ignore most of that since floors are good, steps are good, firewall is untouched, big window surround is good, drip rails are good, etc. It's pretty solid. The Jackalope has more rust than this truck! Nicer panels, but more rust

Originally Posted by dsraven

after that, and before you spend money on upgrades, you need to decide what you want from the truck in the end. how you will use the truck, what ground clearance you want, what stance (ride height and rake angle) you want and what capabilities you will want from the truck. if you are looking for a truck to haul stuff and not bottom out or drag the bumpers, to be a truck first, then that will narrow down the entries to the pro's list and add to the entries on the cons list for some of the stuff available. for a high horsepower unit you will need to look at rear axle and possibly rear suspension upgrades as well as possibly some frame modifications. a low truck will also possibly require a "C" notch of the frame above the rear axle as well as possibly some suspension work to lower the rear of the unit.

I want a cruiser/parts/lumber fetcher. I'm going to upgrade to disc, so upgrading the front suspension at the same time just makes sense. Then do the rear for the disc and limited slip differential.

Originally Posted by dsraven

if you want a truck that handles like a newer truck and has some load handling capabilities but also has some upgradable components for braking and handling in the future then look into a truck front end, like, say a dodge Dakota front clip swap or possibly a newer c10 member install or look into an ifs unit that is capable of handling the load and braking required of a truck. ask the questions on here for guys that have done that particular swap. you need to check the track width of the donor as well as the frame width and where the steering box or rack is located so it can connect to the column. you will need a welder friend who is schooled in the do's and don'ts of frame fabrication and modification for this and probably need more than a single visit.

I probably wont venture into rarely explored territory on this one... well documented swaps are good for me at this point.. hence camaro or Pinto.

Originally Posted by dsraven

you will need a few shop tools like engine lift, chain and attachments. floor jack, jack stands and misc blocking. large clamps, "c" clamp vice grips, magnets, long and short levels (digital are better for accuracy), string line (or laser for accuracy), grinders with grinding and cut off discs, related safety equipment like face shields, particulate respirators, coveralls, gloves etc. large and small squares, a quality tape measure and other measuring tools. you will need to first ensure the truck frame you are working with is straight and square so that means a clean bare frame is best. you may need to fab a cab lifter attachment for the engine lift to ease that job. check on here for recommendations. you will then need a place to put the cab and sheet metal parts that is out of the way. you will also need a new steering column or will need to modify the old steering column and add components to connect the dots between the old column and the steering box/rack. you will need to fabricate engine mounts, figure out exhaust routing, rad support mounts, inner fender fitment, frame extensions and mods for front bumper fitment, park brake mechanism attachments, clutch and brake pedal linkages, brake line routing etc. you may also want to install a dual system brake master cylinder at the same time because most guys want disc brakes up front so a new master cylinder is required. a power brake upgrade is also common. some are firewall mounted and some are stock frame mounted style. you may also want to refresh the front end components like mentioned earlier. this can add up quickly. you may want to invest in an assembly manual for the truck which will give frame dimensions etc so that you can get the new frame clip set up for the proper rad support height and dimension from the firewall face as well as the proper dimensions for the front bumper extensions. when you start to disassemble things you will likely find a few rotten areas that will also need attention. broken bolts etc, so you will likely need a few tools to remove those items. center punches, drills, bits, easy outs, torch, taps and/or die set etc.

I have all of the tools mentioned, except the cherry picker and engine stand. I was thinking about making a gantry crane, but i dont have enough space sadly. Fortunately I have a bad ass Apache to use as reference material for many of those things!

Originally Posted by dsraven

if you want a truck that drives and handles like a car then put a car front end or an aftermarket ifs in. that will usually diminish the capabilities for the load hauling and ground clearance etc. there are a number of donor vehicles like Camaro/firebird/nova, crown vic, volare etc and there are lots of them driving around out there. you will need to know things like the ride height associated with the frame clip welded even with or below the stock frame. they will all have the same related issues as the above mentioned truck frame clip. an important thing to do is to get measurements and angles from the donor clip with the entire weight of the original vehicle as it would be driving around. write these down and save them for use when you are mocking up the clip to your frame. you can even use threaded rod in place of the shocks while the clip is still in the donor car, so the suspension stays at the intended ride height for the donor vehicle. then, when it is being mocked up into your truck, you can keep the angles the same as when the clip was loaded with the weight of the original car.

From what I understand, the Camaro clip is heavy duty enough to support these lightweight trucks. I'm not hauling 5 yards of gravel, so not too worried about that. My current Apache is on No Limit IFS front and 4 Link rear (I didn't install it). I'll probably try another company for this one since my No Limit setup had a ball joint strip twice, dropping the truck on the sub while driving, and necessitating a replacement lower a-arm that had to be custom made since Rob didnt stock parts for the older version. It was a huge hassle and took months. So maybe TCI if this truck gets a Mustang II. The track width does seem a bit narrow for running stock sized wheels though. As I mentioned above, having an entire donor vehicle to measure is unlikely, i dont have space for that.

Originally Posted by dsraven

if you want to use the existing frame, front to rear, and add an independent front suspension then some of the same principles still apply. truck capabilities or car capabilities. some components are tougher than others. look at and compare the metal thickness of the cross members and control arms. the gusseting of corners, the quality of welds, the size and quality of the fasteners and steering/suspension components. the size and quality of the brake components. the cost of upgrades you want or may need in the future. check out a write up from Heidts, or contact them for a web link, that explains the requirements and geometry of independent front suspension. you should know what each angle does and how each component interacts to affect the steering. a simple thing like the wrong pivot point for an inner tie rod end can cause a headache from bump steer for example. look at how the control arm pivots are mounted and gusstted. some have the old style mustang II "T" bolts that hold the upper control arm pivots onto the frame on a horizontal surface. these rely on friction to stop the upper control arm from moving across the frame surface if the suspension goes over a pot hole or the like. the newer style has the upper control arm pivot shaft mounted to an vertical plate and uses shims to adjust the control arm for alignment. this system is stronger, in my opinion. with that said there are a lot of the older style driving around with no problems. look at an assembled unit if possible and check how things like the ball joint boots fit and seal. some simply sit on the ball joint housing and as the suspension moves the boot becomes unsealed and allows road dirt and water to enter. some have boots that fit tightly and seal well.
some of the ifs units are bolt on cross members that have the upper and lower control arm pivots already welded in place. you don't have to guess when doing mock up and assembly or hope you have it right when welding. that is all figured out before you get it so you get the frame work done, leveled and at the rake angle you want, then bolt in the cross member at level side to side and fore to aft and then assemble the rest of the parts. check Scotts hotrod parts for a visual on what I mean. there are others that make similar bolt in units. again, ask the direct questions on here for the manufacturer you like the most. guys will usually be brutally honest. sometimes the cost of a weld in seems quite a bit cheaper but if you factor in a welder paid by the hour while setting up components to a tenth of a degree that can add up quickly and the spread of costs between the two gets less. that is as long as you have the skills and tools to do the assembly of a bolt in unit by youself.
ok, end of rant. order the birthday cake, you probably have been here long enough to have another birthday coming right up. haha.

I'm appreciative that you went to such great lengths to break down the big picture!!

Quick question though.. whats the cost of a Camaro subframe swap after you factor in all the parts needed?

[PDW HOTRODS]

Cost on the swap depends a lot on labor. Are you able to do all of it, or do you have a friend that can help? Paying a shop might get expensive. The Camaro sub frame is good, very strong, and you can get parts for it very easy, but the M2 might be easier. I like both, but in a 55-59 I like the Camaro better.

[mr48chev]

I just looked though the Industrial chassis site and it looks like they are reworking it again and some things are left off. He has shown the TF crossmember in the past.

At any rate do your homework and research and I'd take a notebook and price out each option including rebuild parts.

[dwcsr]

My two cents is that the wrong choices are as many as the right choices.

I'm not an MII fan or a Camaro fan but MII is really only a suspension in name and geometry now. It has been redesigned with forged spindles choices or A frames and the better ones now use a GM type caster, camber adjustment. Stay away from an MII with the old T bolt Caster, Camber adjustment. I believe TCI is still using T bolt adjustments and stay away from the a frames that have two many joints in them or have to be taken apart to make adjustments Scotts uses rod ends and has tomant failure points in my opinion.

Camaro is a proven suspension that can hold a big block so a SBC or LS in a Task Force should not be an issue. They can be installed to look like they belong or look like an afterthought. I would do MII before Camaro

My preference is the Kimbridge clip. Its a slide in clip that uses S10 , A body or G Body parts which are proven and a dime a dozen. The picture is a Kimbridge clip, S10 A frames, Unisteer rack for a G Body

[fourspeedwagon]

Is Kimbridge still in business? They’re website looks dead.
I’ve not heard of them until now but am interested because my “new” 47 will need something. Jag, Dakota, G..?

[bobinbc]

On strictly a cost basis I think the Camaro would still come out ahead, especially if you could find a Camaro with a rusty body for 500 and use the rear axle as well.
One extra cost for the MII style is power steering. I think most kits come with a manual rack standard, power is extra cost? not sure.

All MII kits I've seen use urethane bushings in the control arms, stock rubber bushings are still available for Camaro = no squeaks and better/quieter ride.

You're going to pay a pro to burn it in either way so it's a wash there.

Four Ball Joints, Eight Bushings, Four Tie Rod Ends, Two Tie Rod Sleeves, Sway Bar Link Kit & Idler Arm kit from Eckler's $370

Rebuilt steering box $150 (I went with a low mileage used S10 box for quick ratio)

Front brake rotors, pads, calipers, flexible brake lines and bearings $250

Labor to install ball joints and bushings $100

So under $900 to refurbish the clip, add another 100 for the springs of your choice, stock or dropped from Moog or Eaton unless you are going with bags.

A GM subframe is much stronger than an aftermarket MII style kit. All of the control arm mounting bolts are in double shear and it's not prone to cracking. Take a look at what the chassis are under stock cars at any local race track- F-body/G-body GM clips. Never seen a race car with MII suspension, must be a reason for that!

Edit: Having said that I did my subframe swap for considerably lees. I found a complete car sitting in a yard. The body/interior were rough but the car had a blown engine and trans and had been parked for years because of that. They had no use for it and were happy to have me tow it away, for free! Changed the box to quick ratio, idler arm, 2 ball joints, 2 tie rod ends and it was good to go. Brakes had even been done not long before it was parked so I just threw in new pads to be safe. Fabbed and tacked in everything myself, had a good welder burn it in and it took an alignment perfectly. Total cost under $300

[ChuckDriver]

You should also look at the C4 vette suspension. Flat Out Engineering make a weld in cross member so you don't have to cut off the front of the frame!

http://www.flatout-engineering.com/products.html

[dsraven]

check these guys. USD is pretty good compared to CAD. you may get some ideas if nothing else.

https://www.canadianhotrodsinc.com/

[daveshilling]

Originally Posted by bobinbc

On strictly a cost basis I think the Camaro would still come out ahead, especially if you could find a Camaro with a rusty body for 500 and use the rear axle as well.
One extra cost for the MII style is power steering. I think most kits come with a manual rack standard, power is extra cost? not sure.

All MII kits I've seen use urethane bushings in the control arms, stock rubber bushings are still available for Camaro = no squeaks and better/quieter ride.

You're going to pay a pro to burn it in either way so it's a wash there.

Four Ball Joints, Eight Bushings, Four Tie Rod Ends, Two Tie Rod Sleeves, Sway Bar Link Kit & Idler Arm kit from Eckler's $370

Rebuilt steering box $150 (I went with a low mileage used S10 box for quick ratio)

Front brake rotors, pads, calipers, flexible brake lines and bearings $250

Labor to install ball joints and bushings $100

So under $900 to refurbish the clip, add another 100 for the springs of your choice, stock or dropped from Moog or Eaton unless you are going with bags.

A GM subframe is much stronger than an aftermarket MII style kit. All of the control arm mounting bolts are in double shear and it's not prone to cracking. Take a lot at what the chassis are under stock cars at any local race track- F-body/G-body GM clips. Never seen a race car with MII suspension, must be a reason for that!

Edit: Having said that I did my subframe swap for considerably lees. I found a complete car sitting in a yard. The body/interior were rough but the car had a blown engine and trans and had been parked for years because of that. They had no use for it and were happy to have me tow it away, for free! Changed the box to quick ratio, idler arm, 2 ball joints, 2 tie rod ends and it was good to go. Brakes had even been done not long before it was parked so I just threw in new pads to be safe. Fabbed and tacked in everything myself, had a good welder burn it in and it took an alignment perfectly. Total cost under $300

This is perfect, so $900 to rebuild it, plus $500 for the clip, so about $1400.. I can't buy a whole car to cut up ( I live in suburbia) so the screaming deal like you got probably isnt possible.. I wouldnt even know how to get rid of a car that has no rolling ability!

[daveshilling]

Originally Posted by ChuckDriver

You should also look at the C4 vette suspension. Flat Out Engineering make a weld in cross member so you don't have to cut off the front of the frame!

http://www.flatout-engineering.com/products.html

SERIOUSLY looking at this! If I'm spending $1400 already, maybe this is the way to go without cutting the frame, and staying GM. Searching for build threads now!

[mongocanfly]

Dave ..you won't be disappointed with flatouts unit....Don does a great fab job on the crossmembers...his instructions lack though...but he is usually quick to answer any email questions i had...I've got one of his crossmembers in my shop that's headed for my AD truck...its a very nice unit...don't forget to factor in the cost of the coilovers...

[bobinbc]

Originally Posted by ChuckDriver

You should also look at the C4 vette suspension. Flat Out Engineering make a weld in cross member so you don't have to cut off the front of the frame!

Planning to go this way with my next one...already stripped the donor

[daveshilling]

Originally Posted by mongocanfly

Dave ..you won't be disappointed with flatouts unit....Don does a great fab job on the crossmembers...his instructions lack though...but he is usually quick to answer any email questions i had...I've got one of his crossmembers in my shop that's headed for my AD truck...its a very nice unit...don't forget to factor in the cost of the coilovers...

It's an enticing proposition, for sure. So far, the pricing estimates look like:

Flatout: $1550-2100

Kit- 800

Rack (if donor isnt good)- 400

aldan coilovers- 400

Vette IFS components- 150-300
rebuilding of any components-200

Pros: no frame cutting, simplifies mounting radiator and bumper
Cool factor
aluminum parts can be polished if desired

Cons: Over 2k

Camaro clip: $1170-1470

Donor clip $200-500

Four Ball Joints, Eight Bushings, Four Tie Rod Ends, Two Tie Rod Sleeves, Sway Bar Link Kit & Idler Arm kit from Eckler's $370

Rebuilt steering box $150

Front brake rotors, pads, calipers, flexible brake lines and bearings $250

Labor to install ball joints and bushings $100

springs of your choice, stock or dropped from Moog or Eaton 100

Pros: as low as $1200
Can be installed to lower the front significantly without drop spindles or adverse effects to suspension geometry.

Cons: rebuilding mounts for the rad and bumper will be annoying.
Even if done well, looks grafted.

Mustang II from TCI: $3,000

Pros: All new everything

Cons: its $3,000

So far, I'd say that the Flat Out option seems like the best option, especially if you can get parts in good condition from an 84-87 Vette.

[joedoh]

just an observation: its interesting how rebuilding the camaro clip needs 370 in bushings and balljoints but rebuilding the corvette clip is only 200. the used corvette clip is also cheaper than the used camaro clip too.

[daveshilling]

Originally Posted by joedoh

just an observation: its interesting how rebuilding the camaro clip needs 370 in bushings and balljoints but rebuilding the corvette clip is only 200. the used corvette clip is also cheaper than the used camaro clip too.

The Corvette componentry is going to be up to 20 years newer, and probably removed from a car that hasn't been left for dead. The chances of parts being in better shape are better I'd think. A sub frame with suspension attached from a yard is about $200 from a pick n pull, but possibly less when pulling just the suspension components only.

These are my inexperienced ballpark figures. If you have more details based on your experiences, please share!